Author Topic: Test Load Development Procedure  (Read 1331 times)

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Offline tdogg

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Test Load Development Procedure
« on: March 22, 2018, 04:28:10 PM »
So this beg's the question (and maybe this is better as a new thread), when performing new load development do you weigh each charge for each ladder?  I do.  Here's why:

  • It gives me an confidence that the charge is consistent (as it can be) and the accuracy/velocity is due to that charge level.  I have enough variables that confound the result as it is, so wondering if the powder charge level was correct is not an option.  I weigh them all.

  • I am typically stopping and starting during ladder loading on my progressive and as a practice like to verify all press shell locations.  You never really get to a steady state rythm while loading ladder loads.  I take this as an opportunity to weigh each charge and measure each OAL as I'm loading it.  It's a way for me to ensure safety while performing a non standard load routine.  It's slower but the end result is more consistent I believe.

What's y'all process for ladder load processing?  Do you weigh or not and why?

Cheers,
Toby
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 07:04:23 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline IDescribe

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Re: Test Load Development Proceedure
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2018, 04:53:39 PM »
Yeah, that would be clear thread drift.  Maybe it's own thread?

I will go ahead and answer, though, assuming this will get split off with your question.


For a time after I started loading on progressives, I still used a single stage for load development.  I do not any longer.  Now I use the 650. 

I do NOT weigh charges individually.  I'm loading on the press that I will be loading the ammo on after load development.  If I weighed out each charge individually, I'd presumably be skewing the test to more precise results than I would get in practice, which doesn't seem helpful.  I want the test results to reflect the results I will get later.

I do NOT measure OAL on each cartridge.  I could simply say it's the same as the first reason above -- no reason to skew the results away from what I'll get in practice.  But in reality, I'm expecting some OAL variation.  I do not seat off of the nose of the bullet -- ever.  I always use the seating stem that makes contact on the ogive/cone.  Since most variation in bullet length occurs at the nose, and I'm not pushing on the nose during seating, I fully expect that variation in bullet length to show up in variation in OAL, so checking for it is more or less pointless.  I know it's there.  My OAL isn't going to be perfectly consistent.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 05:04:06 PM by IDescribe »

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Test Load Development Procedure
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2018, 07:10:54 PM »
It's not a hard rule for me either way. With a powder that meters really nicely, like W231, I don't really see a need. On the other hand, if called on to do the same with 700X, Red Dot or Unique then I would.

Another point is that since I was working increments of 0.1gr and thereby called upon to do 70 rounds, it was going to be a long day anyway. Individual weighing would have stretched it to 2 days.

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Offline tdogg

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Re: Test Load Development Procedure
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2018, 07:45:42 PM »
For ladder load dev -  I run cases through the 650 after setting the min charge weight. Then when going up the ladder I will just pull the case (with min load) and manually weigh (frankfort arsenal digital scale) and trickle powder and then put them back in under the seating station. Mainly because adjusting the powder drop to be .1 up each time and getting it to stay there is just as much a chore for me as trickling a little more powder - if your only doing 10 cases.

This is another reason I weigh each, the process is tedious and I also trickle up charges (or at least try to). 

Yeah, that would be clear thread drift.  Maybe it's own thread?

I will go ahead and answer, though, assuming this will get split off with your question.


For a time after I started loading on progressives, I still used a single stage for load development.  I do not any longer.  Now I use the 650. 

I do NOT weigh charges individually.  I'm loading on the press that I will be loading the ammo on after load development.  If I weighed out each charge individually, I'd presumably be skewing the test to more precise results than I would get in practice, which doesn't seem helpful.  I want the test results to reflect the results I will get later.

I also thought that I would use my Lee Turret to perform load development but unless I were to purchase a second set of dies to setup on the turret it isn't feasible to swap out setup time for the small amount of time lost on the progressive.

I have two major things I'm looking for in pistol loads, power factor and accuracy.  I guess I would rather know where the actual velocity per charge is and how well the powder is behaving (SD) than know what the "real" world results are (including powder drop variability).  Once I know where the charge floor is (makes PF), then I can make sure I stay above it for future loads.

On the accuracy front, this is mostly splitting hairs and probably isn't practically meaningfully different for pistol loading.  You have a much larger source of variability, the shooter.

Cheers,
Toby

« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 07:53:11 PM by tdogg »
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Offline tdogg

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Re: Test Load Development Procedure
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2018, 07:50:00 PM »
It's not a hard rule for me either way. With a powder that meters really nicely, like W231, I don't really see a need. On the other hand, if called on to do the same with 700X, Red Dot or Unique then I would.

Another point is that since I was working increments of 0.1gr and thereby called upon to do 70 rounds, it was going to be a long day anyway. Individual weighing would have stretched it to 2 days.

I guess I haven't been using a powder that meters as well as I like (maxam CSB-5) and I weigh  load development charges as a result.

So when you increment the charge, how to you go about setting the powder drop and verifying it is giving you the right charge?  Do you set it and drop 10 charges and weight it to get the average each time?  That seems slower than just weighing each charge.

Cheers,
Toby
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 09:03:28 PM by tdogg »
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Offline 1SOW

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Re: Test Load Development Procedure
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2018, 08:30:14 PM »
Toby, do you weigh every charge for your comp. ammo or practice ammo or other high round count uses?

Some degree of confidence in the press powder drop is necessary.  Testing that powder's average drop is a practical way to gain that confidence.....hopefully. :).  How the ammo shoots in that pistol confirms or lessens the validity of the method.

Averaging 10 drops is the same as averaging the bullet speed over your chrono.  There might be one fairly large deviation and several small ones that average to the outcome :-\  the SD effects that confidence

The result does have merit. 

Offline IDescribe

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Re: Test Load Development Procedure
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2018, 10:52:32 PM »
I have two major things I'm looking for in pistol loads, power factor and accuracy. 

Me, too.  Which is why I want the cartridges I'm testing to match the ones coming off the press later when in full production, which to do I need to load the same way in testing that I will be loading later when in full production. 

If you are measuring all of those things individually during development, but not during full scale production, then what you're really doing is developing loads that you'll never use again.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 10:53:55 AM by IDescribe »

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: Test Load Development Procedure
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2018, 07:42:18 AM »
I do weigh every powder charge during load development.  Regardless of the powder used.

I only load 10 to 15 rounds at each powder charge level.

Sometimes I use my RCBS uniflow if the powder meters very consistently.  Sometimes I use the Hornady electronic measure/scale if the powder doesn't meter consistently.

When I load self defense/hunting rounds I treat them the same way.  If using BLC2 powder I use the RCBS uniflow and only weight check one in ten rounds (I seen 2 or 3 out of 50 that might be off 0.1 grain).  If I use IMR4198 I use the Hornady electronic measure/scale because that powder absolutely will not give me consistent charge weights in the Uniflow (or any other of the 3 powder measures I've tried with it.)

I'm not developing a load for fun, I'm developing it for a combination of reliability and small groups.  Consistency helps with both.

For my rifles there is no difference between my practice/plinking rounds and my self defense rounds.  For handguns there is.  I use (mostly) lead for practice rounds and hollow points for self defense (except for the Colt 1911's.  The just get round nosed ammo, usually lead.  The 9MM, .40 S&W and .357 magnum all get hollow points for self defense.  Oh, the .44's get mostly lead semi wadcutters.

Good luck.  Be safe.  Have fun.  Learn stuff.  Get better at what you are doing.  Some day you may be glad you did (all of it).
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline tdogg

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Re: Test Load Development Procedure
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2018, 05:06:59 PM »
Toby, do you weigh every charge for your comp. ammo or practice ammo or other high round count uses?

Some degree of confidence in the press powder drop is necessary.  Testing that powder's average drop is a practical way to gain that confidence.....hopefully. :).  How the ammo shoots in that pistol confirms or lessens the validity of the method.

Averaging 10 drops is the same as averaging the bullet speed over your chrono.  There might be one fairly large deviation and several small ones that average to the outcome :-\  the SD effects that confidence

The result does have merit.

1SOW,

I don't weigh every charge, I do have a practice of weighing charges randomly when loading a campaign (usually in a 300-500 rd batches).  That equates to roughly every 10-50 cartridges depending on how smoothly everything is running.

I agree that averaging 10 powder drops is a good method for determining your powder drop setting but that is rather tedious when changing 0.1 gr every 10rds during ladder load development.  I'm not following your analogy with the chrono?

Me, too.  Which is why I want the cartridges I'm testing to match the ones coming off the press later when in full production, which to do I need to load the same way in testing that I will be loading later when in full production. 

I guess I don't see the initial ladder load as the end all for load development.  I use it as more of a range finding where I want to tease out a signal for accuracy and velocity.  I then use that knowledge to fine tune it incorporating all standard sources of variability, as when running a full campaign.  After the initial ladder load, I will select a charge that was "best" and run a small campaign (~100, that I don't weigh each charge but do perform standard QC on) that I randomly select at least 10 from to chrono and test for accuracy.  I also use these to verify my zero and adjust sights as needed.  If all is well then I will move to bigger campaigns, if it isn't then I will tweak and repeat the small campaign and retest, etc... until I find "the load". 

Generally speaking my standards for pistol loads are pretty low and I don't do much tweaking.  I find that I have enough other crap to do that I don't bother fine tuning much for pistol loads.  I still strive for the best accuracy, I just don't chase it very far.

Cheers,
Toby
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Offline Wobbly

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Re: Test Load Development Procedure
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2018, 07:22:46 PM »
I guess I don't see the initial ladder load as the end all for load development.  I use it as more of a range finding where I want to tease out a signal for accuracy and velocity.  I then use that knowledge to fine tune it incorporating all standard sources of variability, as when running a full campaign. 

Exactly. We have to becasue the CZ most always requires an OAL that isn't shown in the early load data. So on this first pass, I'm really just verifying my educated guesses about the load, and seeing how the powder behaves over that range, while looking at cleanliness, bullet feeding, and other general cartridge qualities.

 ;)
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

 

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