Author Topic: Longer loading coated 9mm bullets?  (Read 4319 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Moken

  • Guest
Longer loading coated 9mm bullets?
« on: March 14, 2018, 10:46:35 AM »
I've loaded several types of bullets for my P120 Tristar and Canik Shark C. Both seem more accurate with bullets that will load 1.120+ and Xtreme and Berrys RN fit that bill.
I would like to try some coated and I bought ACME 124 RN gr but they have to load deep, 1.090. I reduced the powder charge and they shoot well but does anyone know of a coated that has a shorter ogive that will load longer?

Offline Wobbly

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12748
  • Loves the smell of VihtaVuori in the morning !
Re: Longer loading coated 9mm bullets?
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2018, 11:46:49 AM »
Missouri Bullet Co coated 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek (as listed under 38 Super)

http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=334&category=5&secondary=26&keywords=

You'll like it.

Use 124gr lead loading data reduced by 0.1gr and you'll be good.
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Moken

  • Guest
Re: Longer loading coated 9mm bullets?
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2018, 12:05:26 PM »
Missouri Bullet Co coated 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek (as listed under 38 Super)

http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=334&category=5&secondary=26&keywords=

You'll like it.

Use 124gr lead loading data reduced by 0.1gr and you'll be good.
Great tip! I'll look in to them. I've thought many times about trying my home state bullet maker.

Offline Wobbly

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12748
  • Loves the smell of VihtaVuori in the morning !
Re: Longer loading coated 9mm bullets?
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2018, 01:07:38 PM »
This bullet solves several issues....
? It's coated with real Hi-Tek
? It's heavier, and therefore not as likely to lead the barrel
? The long narrow ogive works great in CZ at 1.130" OAL
? The 0.357 bullet diameter makes sure it fits the barrel, as per JLJ "fit is king"

You'll like it.
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Moken

  • Guest
Re: Longer loading coated 9mm bullets?
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2018, 03:18:34 PM »
I get through w my .45 load development I'm trying those. Been reading up on the bullets size etc. It might make my 9mm P120 very accurate, assuming I do my job. Thanks, Wobbly!

Offline baldrage

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 561
Re: Longer loading coated 9mm bullets?
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2018, 04:21:25 PM »
The Conical Nose from SNS also has a narrow profile and loads longer than many other coated bullets -- these plunk around 1.125 in my SP01 Shadow:

http://www.snscasting.com/new-9mm-125-grain-conical-nose-red-coated-1000ct/




Offline IDescribe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4049
Re: Longer loading coated 9mm bullets?
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2018, 05:17:39 PM »
First, the bullet WObbly recommended is excellent in my CZ ShadowLine.  Good bullet.

Second, as WObbly referenced JLJ's mantra -- fit IS king.


BUT...


I've loaded several types of bullets for my P120 Tristar and Canik Shark C. Both seem more accurate with bullets that will load 1.120+

This is a clear example of interpreting correlation as causation.  :)

IF in fact the 9mm bullets you've loaded are more accurate at OAL 1.120 or longer, THAT is a result of the specific bullets you've used in those loads doing better at 1.12+ in those particular pistols, and definitely NOT the result of bullets in general doing better at 1.12+ in those pistols.  OAL is the distance from the headstamp to the nose.  How far the nose of your bullet is from the headstamp has no ballistic effect.  Zero.  The nose of the bullet does not engage the barrel.  It doesn't matter one bit to accuracy how far into the barrel the nose extends (which is what OAL will determine) at the time the primer is detonated.  The most accurate bullets you load for your CZ are very likely to be JHP, which with very few exceptions (only one I am aware of) won't get to the 1.12 in a CZ without rifling engagement.

Be very careful not to connect dots that aren't really connected as you try to learn this hobby in a more detailed fashion.  There will be all sorts of correlations that have no causal relationship at all.  ;)

Moken

  • Guest
Re: Longer loading coated 9mm bullets?
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2018, 06:36:49 PM »
First, the bullet WObbly recommended is excellent in my CZ ShadowLine.  Good bullet.

Second, as WObbly referenced JLJ's mantra -- fit IS king.


BUT...


I've loaded several types of bullets for my P120 Tristar and Canik Shark C. Both seem more accurate with bullets that will load 1.120+

This is a clear example of interpreting correlation as causation.  :)

IF in fact the 9mm bullets you've loaded are more accurate at OAL 1.120 or longer, THAT is a result of the specific bullets you've used in those loads doing better at 1.12+ in those particular pistols, and definitely NOT the result of bullets in general doing better at 1.12+ in those pistols.  OAL is the distance from the headstamp to the nose.  How far the nose of your bullet is from the headstamp has no ballistic effect.  Zero.  The nose of the bullet does not engage the barrel.  It doesn't matter one bit to accuracy how far into the barrel the nose extends (which is what OAL will determine) at the time the primer is detonated.  The most accurate bullets you load for your CZ are very likely to be JHP, which with very few exceptions (only one I am aware of) won't get to the 1.12 in a CZ without rifling engagement.

Be very careful not to connect dots that aren't really connected as you try to learn this hobby in a more detailed fashion.  There will be all sorts of correlations that have no causal relationship at all.  ;)
So those that want as little bullet jump as possible are wrong?  One of my reasons also is case volume with particular powders not necessarily accuracy being my only concern.
I'm not trying to be a competition shooter, it is entirely for sport  and fun. Fun being the key word.
I've been loading since the late 70's, I don't know it all and no where near it. I hope to learn something new each day. That's why I am totally amazed at the selection of powder and bullets. Being a Vietnam era vet I and raised on 1911s I WAS anti 9mm. SO if anything is new to me it's the 9mm. With suggestions like Wobbly's and others I hope to continually find better and different set ups to enjoy.

Offline painter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6231
Re: Longer loading coated 9mm bullets?
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2018, 06:49:42 PM »
Bullet jump is far less important in a hand held,unsupported pistol, than in a bench rest rifle. Granted, it is a factor, but it's not the most important factor in deciding loads.
I had the right to remain silent...

but not the ability.

Moken

  • Guest
Re: Longer loading coated 9mm bullets?
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2018, 06:52:13 PM »
Indeed, I am also concerned about case volume.
For example, if one bullet is .030 shorter but LOADS .040 shorter you lost .010 of case volume which can be critical in a high pressure case like a 9mm.
However last night I read an article about making major with the 9mm. Scared the stuffing out of me!!!! LOL


[Mods corrected language]
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 08:36:58 PM by Wobbly »

Offline painter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6231
Re: Longer loading coated 9mm bullets?
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2018, 07:14:24 PM »
Indeed, I am also concerned about case volume.
For example, if one bullet is .030 shorter but LOADS .040 shorter you lost .010 of case volume which can be critical in a high pressure case like a 9mm.
However last night I read an article about making major with the 9mm. Scared the stuffing out of me!!!! LOL
I understand your concern regarding case volume, but if you start at starting load regardless of minor variances in OAL, you'll be safe.

Typically the most a load window will change is a tenth, or two. Unless you like to load at max, it's rarely an issue.

Start at starting load...always.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 08:37:27 PM by Wobbly »
I had the right to remain silent...

but not the ability.

Moken

  • Guest
Re: Longer loading coated 9mm bullets?
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2018, 07:53:23 PM »
I understand your concern regarding case volume, but if you start at starting load regardless of minor variances in OAL, you'll be safe.

Typically the most a load window will change is a tenth, or two. Unless you like to load at max, it's rarely an issue.

Start at starting load...always.
Great point. I rarely go above midload on anything. The only thing I may go up on is the Mini 14 and ARs then I use Hornady 5.56 NATO standards. And certainly don't go to the top of those loads.
The .45 I keep civil since the wife loves her 1911 officers cut. And its very accurate with 200 gr loaded soft. She is as good a shot with her short barrel as I am with a full size 1911. And she's deadly accurate with her Tristar T100.  I duplicate our SD rounds with 124 gr Xtreme RN at 1050 fps with Longshot.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 08:38:56 PM by Wobbly »

Offline IDescribe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4049
Re: Longer loading coated 9mm bullets?
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2018, 12:11:37 AM »
So those that want as little bullet jump as possible are wrong? 

As Painter said, it's not like it is with bench rest shooting at hundreds of yards out to a thousand.  But even if it were crucial, you don't control that jump by having arbitrary minimum numbers.  You control it by determining maximum OAL with every bullet, and deducting as much from that max for a working OAL as you choose.  If that's .005, .010, or .015, OR nothing at all, you still get there by determining maximum OAL and taking a deduction.  Having something like 1.12 minimum doesn't accomplish what you're trying to do.


One of my reasons also is case volume with particular powders not necessarily accuracy being my only concern.

Same idea as the previous.  You control that by calculating seating depth: case length + bullet length - OAL = seating depth.  You might think loading longer increases that case volume, but if you load longer than your maximum, you will put the bullet into the rifling lands, which increases pressure (the opposite of what you're trying to do), MIGHT set the bullet back deeper into the case when it chambers, so you lose that extra case volume you think you're getting anyway, AND if you get it inside a certain window, you can jam it into the lands, set the bullet back, AND hold the slide just ever so slightly out of battery, and KABOOM.

Determining your maximum OAL without rifling engagement, and basing a working OAL off of that, is a valuable step in reloading. ;)


Let's assume that you've decided 1.12 is an all around effective OAL and look at an example: 

Berry's 124gr HBRN.  Bullet length = .616  That bullet will load to 1.220 in my CZ ShadowLine.  That's the max without rifling engagement.  So let's say you've decided that you're going to use an OAL of 1.12.  Case length (.75) + bullet length (.616) - OAL (1.12) = seating depth (.246).  And the jump distance is minus .100 out of the lands. 

And...

BBI 125gr RN.  Bullet length = .596.  Max OAL without rifling engagement = 1.118.  You decide to use an OAL of 1.12 because you like it.  Case length (.75) + bullet length (.596) - OAL (1.12) = seating depth (.226).  And the jump distance is plus .002 into rifling engagement (instead of out of it), worth a very slight increase in pressure than if you had been say minus .005 out of rifling engagement.

Montana Gold 124gr JHP.  You believe bullets do better in your pistol at 1.12 in terms of accuracy, and you like loading long for the extra case volume, AND the professionally generated load data used 1.12 for its OAL, so you're going to use an OAL of 1.12.  Here's the problem: Bullet length is .576.  Maximum OAL without rifling engagement in my ShadowLine is 1.088.  So case length (.75) + bullet length (.576) - OAL (1.12) = seating depth (.206).  And jump distance to rifling is plus .032 INTO rifling engagement.  And that is enough to jam the bullet good and hard into the rifling when it chambers, and it knocks the bullet back .015 into the case, so REALLY your seating depth is now .221 with your jump .017 into the rifling, with your bullet jammed good and hard into the rilfing, which will produce a pressure spike.

A little easier to see:

Berry Plated 124gr HBRN | OAL 1.12 | Seating Depth .246 | Jump .100 out of rifling

Black Bullets 125gr RN | OAL 1.12 | Seating Depth .226 | Jump .002 into rifling

Montana Gold 124gr JHP | OAL 1.12 | Seating Depth .221 | Jump .017 JAMMED into rifling

Same OAL all three loads. 

The Black Bullets and Montana Gold have very close remaining case volume, with the Montana Gold having a little more, BUT the Montana Gold is jammed into the rifling and will operate at significantly higher pressure despite the extra case volume.

The Berry's HBRN is only .020 - .025 deeper into the case, but it has a jump of .100 out of the lands, which is FAR from the lands AND far from the other two bullets at the same OAL. 

I know you weren't saying you should load all bullets at exactly 1.12, and that you might like to load the HBRN longer, but the point is that the two ballistically relevant numbers -- seating depth (which controls remaining case volume) and bullet jump can be dramatically different with two different bullets at the same OAL.  So it's not about finding the right OAL or OAL range for your pistol.  It's about finding the right OAL for a particular bullet in your pistol.  And that OAL might be 1.060 or 1.100 or 1.120 or 1.165 or whatever, depending on the bullet.  And the jump might be .005 or .080, you need to tune OAL for accuracy.  Closest is not always best.   And that process starts with determining your max OAL without rifling engagement, and working from there. :)

Make sense?  :)

Moken

  • Guest
Re: Longer loading coated 9mm bullets?
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2018, 08:28:54 AM »
Fantastic post! Should be a sticky. Yes I understand the math..
Thank you!

Offline Wobbly

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12748
  • Loves the smell of VihtaVuori in the morning !
Re: Longer loading coated 9mm bullets?
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2018, 09:12:14 PM »
Fantastic post! Should be a sticky.


This is why we only let him out on Thursdays.   O0
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.