Author Topic: Purchased a new RAMI, looks used. Do they normally come looking like this?  (Read 21826 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline frogwalking

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 115
  • Retired Engineer, Viet. Vet., (one of the 4%)
if you have reliability issues, someone here always advises to disassemble each magazine and clean out protective grease.  My experience is that you should do that.  If it has been used, it looks ok to me.  How does it shoot. If it will shoot 200 or more rounds with no malfunction and prints on target, it is good.  I think these things actually shoot better with wear.   Magazines will show wear if you shoot much.  Those mags appear to show only a little wear. 

Offline CZSkins

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 16
I haven't shot it yet, I was afraid if I shot it I couldn't do anything about it.  It's not that I am worried it won't work.  I paid for a new gun, I want it in mint condition.  I don't even know if this is normal for the finish and wear marks on the rails.  It may be that this is what all RAMIs look like, just have zero experience with CZs other than shooting friends.  I compared it to one of my SIGs that I've put 5,000 rounds through, it looks brand new all finish still on the rails, no smileys on the barrel.  I called the seller a few minutes ago, he is going to have his son look at the pics and call me back.

I'd love to see some pics of very low round count rails or unfired ones.  I guess I am just worried I got one that had finish problems.  In the end the outside finish looks great and if it shoots as well as the other CZs I've shot I will be happy with it.  I do want it to be the same as any other RAMIs look new though, especially considering I paid $685 for a gun with a list price of $679.

Offline Steve B

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 63
I don't own a Rami but I do currently own 8 CZ pistols, the first, a CZ-75C purchased in 1993.
All but one (CZ-82) were purchased new.
In my experience, the looks of the insides of these (when new) were all over the map.

Concerning your pistol compared to the most similar (re: unused) of those I own:
The slide rail "wear" on your Rami looks to be  MUCH less than that on the Shadow-2 I purchased 1/28/2018 and have not as yet had an opportunity to fire.  I am certain no one but the factory would have fired this pistol (it was purchased locally).
The barrel "wear" looks to be on par with that of my P-07 9mm barrel which has only had a snap cap cycled through it a few times. The pistol has only been fired with the .22 conversion (i.e. The  9mm barrel is unused - pistol purchased locally).

Your pictures don't clearly indicate the wear points due to usage that I would look for (horizontal line on back of hammer from hitting frame on recoil, wear on the leading edge of hammer from slide dragging across it, wear at the base of the firing pin stop. wear on the tips of the trigger bar and the trigger safety plunger as well as the corresponding contact points on the bottom of the slide rails.

I definitely understand your concerns as I have been screwed over the years on Sig, S&W and Colt pistols (due to quality issues)  but do not let yourself get wrapped around the axle over what essentially appears to amount to some interior finish issues.
Your costs to return it  (if possible) would likely outweigh any actual benefits other than to ease your mind that you MAY have gotten a pistol that had been fired by someone other than the factory prior to you owning it.

IMO:
Does the pistol function 100%?
Is it accurate (considering size)?
If yes to all of the above, I would not lose any sleep over it.
If no, document your concerns and have CZ USA look at it.

BTW I have also noted your posts in the Sig forum but hesitated on commenting there.


Regards,
Steve

Offline CZSkins

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Thank you Steve! This is exactly the type of answer I was looking for.  If it's purely internally cosmetic but works 100% of the time,  I'm satisfied.  If this is in the spectrum of what I should expect them I can't complain if it works.

The finish on the outside is perfect.  Maybe I'm just over reacting because all I've seen other than my rimfires are SIGs.  Frame/slide/smiley tells you exactly how many rounds and how gun was lubed.

Thanks.  I 99% certain I'll just take it to the range and forget about it if she runs as its supposed to.

Offline MeatAxe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1748
Thank you Steve! This is exactly the type of answer I was looking for.  If it's purely internally cosmetic but works 100% of the time,  I'm satisfied.  If this is in the spectrum of what I should expect them I can't complain if it works.

The finish on the outside is perfect.  Maybe I'm just over reacting because all I've seen other than my rimfires are SIGs.  Frame/slide/smiley tells you exactly how many rounds and how gun was lubed.

Thanks.  I 99% certain I'll just take it to the range and forget about it if she runs as its supposed to.


Well, it's your money (on the upper end of Rami BDs' prices) and if that's the answer you were looking for, I take it that you're satisfied. I guess it depends on what you're willing to tolerate. I hope whoever shot your gun previously didn't do anything that will come back to haunt you.

To each his own, I suppose, but I would never accept that level of use or abuse in a "new" gun, whether it came that way direct from the factory or though some goober on GB. If I'm paying top dollar, I expect a new gun to be in pristine or near pristine condition when I get it. Of course, it hasn't been much of an issue for me, since I only buy from established distributors and inspect my guns thoroughly on delivery. I did return a new Vz58 pistol the other day for a refund when I discovered some bad machining on the rails (a "scalloped" effect) that was hanging up the bolt. It, too, had been fired more extensively than a few test rounds at the factory. The distributor suggested that I fire 200 rounds through it to "smooth it out" but, no way. I'm not paying top dollar to deal with somebody else's mistakes or abuse. I've never seen such bad machining on any firearm I've taken delivery on, Com Bloc or not.

I just field stripped my EDC 2014 vintage Rami BD (probably has 2500 to 3000 rounds through it, mainly +P loads) and I will say that your "new" pistol shows significantly more wear than mine does, particularly on the outside of the barrel. Of course, mine came new in pristine condition, packed in fresh cosmoline and has been kept clean and lubed since I've had it. I'll try to post some pics later.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 01:36:23 AM by MeatAxe »

Offline PappaWheelie

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
  • "This is war, and in war, time is of the essence."
    • The Children's Bread
Hi CZSkins,
The burnishing of the black oxide coating on the slide rails high spot areas by the (inherently abrasive) 7075 T6 aluminum frame rails is inevitable, even if well lubed.  The wear areas between the barrel and frame as evidenced by the burnishing away of the black oxide on the nose of the barrel and the lower frame-contacting horizontal flats appear to reflect only minimal (i.e. factory sight accuracy check) use. You'll note the frame's horizontal barrel contact flats will begin to burnish and even Brinell slightly slightly over time from the impacts. It's normal for the machined and investment cast internal surfaces to be free from the "hardy black polycoat finish" (powdercoating) that protects the external surfaces. Clean that bad boy up, lube all contact interfaces and go enjoy!

With regard to lube, I've been happy with Weapon Shield https://youtu.be/lcBu6q61G3M  https://www.amazon.com/Steel-Shield-Weapon-Maintenance-Kit/dp/B00IPQXC74/ref=sr_1_4/143-8449447-3655320?ie=UTF8&qid=1522785190&sr=8-4&keywords=weaponshield  -the above YouTube evidences ~100X greater extreme pressure capability (~8X load carried by only ~1/12 the contact area) in comparison with Slip 2000 EWL, and Lucas Gun Oil, an advantage that may relate to minimal bore wear and possibly increased muzzle velocity. The presenter, George Fennell, is the author of a technical paper "BOUNDARY FILM LUBRICATION THROUGH ADVANCED  HALOGENATION TECHNIQUES: OXIRANE ACID SCAVENGING AND ORGANO-METALLIC SUBSTITUTION" on the Weapon Shield website http://weaponshield.com/PDF/BoundaryFilmLubrication.pdf which possibly suggests more chemical/technical know-how than your average bear, although I disagree with his YouTube characterization of the wear patch as being "elastic deformation of the steel and not wear:" if that were strictly true he wouldn't need to continually clean transferred metal off of his spindle's bearing surface between tests, and there'd be no residual wear mark.

PS- congrats on getting the BD! http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=95318.msg732479#msg732479

08/01/2018 UPDATE
The champ has been dethroned, at least in terms of "Extreme Pressure" capability as measured by coefficient of friction under extreme pressure:
http://www.czforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5566.msg23440#msg23440
« Last Edit: August 01, 2018, 02:48:01 PM by PappaWheelie »
Member, Gun Owners of America
CC: CZ 2075 RAMI BD in PappaWheelie Invisible 15 Round RAMI Holster
Homeboy: CZ 97 BD, Underwood 45 Super 120 Grain Xtreme Defender ammo
UBG: CZ 75 SP-01 Tactical Urban Grey Suppressor-ready
-all w/ CGW Short Reset Kit/1485-T2 Disco, 5 "Thick" Trigger, polished SA tooth

Offline MeatAxe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1748
^ Yeah, I think I?d find it more believeable if the tester (employed by weapons shield)  didn?t have an ax to grind - or a bearing for that matter ? to insure that his product came out on top. Through some sleight of hand, it didn?t look like he put any Slip 2000 on the grinding surface at all -- the wear looked the same as the test with no lubricant at all. Would rather see independent, objective tests.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 02:58:29 AM by MeatAxe »

Offline frogwalking

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 115
  • Retired Engineer, Viet. Vet., (one of the 4%)
My point included the fact that you have paid for the pistol.  I have dealt with Guns International with good results (Both buying and selling).  If I remember correctly, the buyer has 3 days to inspect his purchase.  During that time, he may return it for any reason (in the same condition it was received).  After 3 days, it belongs to the purchaser; period.  If your inspection time is up, you may as well make the best of it.  If the gun has been fired any significant number of times, they did not use those magazines.

Offline MeatAxe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1748
I don't own a Rami but I do currently own 8 CZ pistols, the first, a CZ-75C purchased in 1993.
All but one (CZ-82) were purchased new.
In my experience, the looks of the insides of these (when new) were all over the map.

Concerning your pistol compared to the most similar (re: unused) of those I own:
The slide rail "wear" on your Rami looks to be  MUCH less than that on the Shadow-2 I purchased 1/28/2018 and have not as yet had an opportunity to fire.  I am certain no one but the factory would have fired this pistol (it was purchased locally).
The barrel "wear" looks to be on par with that of my P-07 9mm barrel which has only had a snap cap cycled through it a few times. The pistol has only been fired with the .22 conversion (i.e. The  9mm barrel is unused - pistol purchased locally).

Your pictures don't clearly indicate the wear points due to usage that I would look for (horizontal line on back of hammer from hitting frame on recoil, wear on the leading edge of hammer from slide dragging across it, wear at the base of the firing pin stop. wear on the tips of the trigger bar and the trigger safety plunger as well as the corresponding contact points on the bottom of the slide rails.

I definitely understand your concerns as I have been screwed over the years on Sig, S&W and Colt pistols (due to quality issues)  but do not let yourself get wrapped around the axle over what essentially appears to amount to some interior finish issues.
Your costs to return it  (if possible) would likely outweigh any actual benefits other than to ease your mind that you MAY have gotten a pistol that had been fired by someone other than the factory prior to you owning it.

IMO:
Does the pistol function 100%?
Is it accurate (considering size)?
If yes to all of the above, I would not lose any sleep over it.
If no, document your concerns and have CZ USA look at it.

BTW I have also noted your posts in the Sig forum but hesitated on commenting there.

Well, it's one thing to buy a gun locally, which presumedly, you're going to inspect and know what you're getting into before you purchase. But I wouldn't put it past some LGS to take the liberty of firing a custom pistol like a Shadow II themselves just for the hell of it before they put it on the shelf to sell as "new" (or some jack-legged seller with a slick website on gun broker to do the same). Have seen it happen, and sad to say it's probably a common occurrence.

Of course, when you're looking at a gun in a LGS, you're not committed and can just walk away. When you special order a gun, it's a different situation, you are at least somewhat committed, having already paid for it, along with S&H. At that point, if it were me, and the "new" gun had obviously been monkeyed with, I would send it right back for a refund (and probably never use that distributor again). That's why it's important to deal with established, reputable distributors with a no questions asked inspection and return policy. In the age of inter webs, companies live and die on their reputation and customer service. Unfortunately, if you don't call some on their bluff and keep them on their toes, it just encourages them to rip off others -- and to me that's a rip off because they've put mileage on a gun that you've paid for with the understanding that it's brand spanking new.

To me, it's that same as if you'd ordered a new car and it came to you at the dealer with a bunch more miles than you'd been told and with a bunch of trash and cigarette butts in the interior. That just wouldn't fly.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 02:55:00 AM by MeatAxe »

Offline TNman

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 279
Hi CZSkins,
The burnishing of the black oxide coating on the slide rails high spot areas by the (inherently abrasive) 7075 T6 aluminum frame rails is inevitable, even if well lubed.  The wear areas between the barrel and frame as evidenced by the burnishing away of the black oxide on the nose of the barrel and the lower frame-contacting horizontal flats appear to reflect only minimal (i.e. factory sight accuracy check) use. You'll note the frame's horizontal barrel contact flats will begin to burnish and even Brinell slightly slightly over time from the impacts. It's normal for the machined and investment cast internal surfaces to be free from the "hardy black polycoat finish" (powdercoating) that protects the external surfaces. Clean that bad boy up, lube all contact interfaces and go enjoy!

With regard to lube, I've been happy with Weapon Shield https://youtu.be/lcBu6q61G3M  https://www.amazon.com/Steel-Shield-Weapon-Maintenance-Kit/dp/B00IPQXC74/ref=sr_1_4/143-8449447-3655320?ie=UTF8&qid=1522785190&sr=8-4&keywords=weaponshield  -the above YouTube evidences ~100X greater extreme pressure capability (~8X load carried by only ~1/12 the contact area) in comparison with Slip 2000 EWL, and Lucas Gun Oil, an advantage that may relate to minimal bore wear and possibly increased muzzle velocity. The presenter, George Fennell, is the author of a technical paper "BOUNDARY FILM LUBRICATION THROUGH ADVANCED  HALOGENATION TECHNIQUES: OXIRANE ACID SCAVENGING AND ORGANO-METALLIC SUBSTITUTION" on the Weapon Shield website http://weaponshield.com/PDF/BoundaryFilmLubrication.pdf which possibly suggests more chemical/technical know-how than your average bear, although I disagree with his YouTube characterization of the wear patch as being "elastic deformation of the steel and not wear:" if that were strictly true he wouldn't need to continually clean transferred metal off of his spindle's bearing surface between tests, and there'd be no residual wear mark.

PS- congrats on getting the BD! http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=95318.msg732479#msg732479
I have been using Weapon Shield for about a year and really like it. Good stuff.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

IDPA   |   USPSA  |   NRA

CZ PCR   |   RAMI BD   |   Shadow 2   |   P-10 C   |   CZ 75B Omega   |   CZ 97 BD

Sig P320 Comp. & Full & X-Carry
Sig P226 Legion
Springfield XDS Mod 2 45

Offline CZSkins

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Thanks for the replies guys, I'm just going to shoot it.  It's a carry gun not a safe queen.  If it works 100% I'm not going to worry.  I'll post some results when I get to shoot it.  Managed to injure myself so this weekend is out for sure.

Also, how long does CZ take to respond to messages?  Left message three or four days ago, no response yet.

Offline PappaWheelie

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
  • "This is war, and in war, time is of the essence."
    • The Children's Bread
5/7/2018 Update:

http://www.czforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=5566.0
FP-10 vs Weapon Shield Friction Coefficient Shootout
Member, Gun Owners of America
CC: CZ 2075 RAMI BD in PappaWheelie Invisible 15 Round RAMI Holster
Homeboy: CZ 97 BD, Underwood 45 Super 120 Grain Xtreme Defender ammo
UBG: CZ 75 SP-01 Tactical Urban Grey Suppressor-ready
-all w/ CGW Short Reset Kit/1485-T2 Disco, 5 "Thick" Trigger, polished SA tooth

Offline TimJupiterFla

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
A carry gun is a tool. It either works well or it doesn't. I bought mine last year on GB as well. I took it home and cleaned and lubed it. The first time I fired it was at 15 yards and I was pretty bleeped impressed. So much so I made it my avatar for this forum. I'm not a great shooter, I cheat, I wear bifocal lens that allows me to do that.
None the less I wouldn't loose sleep over it. So a few people may have shot YOUR brand new gun. I understand. I want my new car to have ZERO miles on it too. But understand this is a tool that will give many many years of good service. It's not like your going to show it off to everyone and they are going to talk behind your back that you bought junk.
Note: I now have a renewed love for my RAMI BD. I was going to replace it with the new Sig P365. Smaller, lighter and 13 rounds. That was until I tried one at the range. I shot a box of mixed weights and found it to be a little snappy due to being so small and light weight. After shooting the 365 I picked up my Rami and sent a mag down range. OH WHAT A DIFFERENCE! The added weight suppressed some of the recoil and allowed me to get back on target much faster. Sometimes the grass isn't greener on the other side.
I suggest clean it, train like hell with it, go through the typical holster growing pains and hope you only have to use on the range.
Best of Luck!
Don't argue with a fool. The spectators can't tell the difference. - Charles j. Nalin

Veteran's before Refugees - Grunt Style

Offline CZSkins

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Thanks Tim.

Still haven't shot the dang thing yet.  Hoping to do it on Saturday.  Never owned a gun this long without shooting it in my entire life.  Have new RAMI, P228, and fiancee's LC9, not shot one yet.  :(

Offline MeatAxe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1748
A carry gun is a tool. It either works well or it doesn't. I bought mine last year on GB as well. I took it home and cleaned and lubed it. The first time I fired it was at 15 yards and I was pretty bleeped impressed. So much so I made it my avatar for this forum. I'm not a great shooter, I cheat, I wear bifocal lens that allows me to do that.
None the less I wouldn't loose sleep over it. So a few people may have shot YOUR brand new gun. I understand. I want my new car to have ZERO miles on it too. But understand this is a tool that will give many many years of good service. It's not like your going to show it off to everyone and they are going to talk behind your back that you bought junk.
Note: I now have a renewed love for my RAMI BD. I was going to replace it with the new Sig P365. Smaller, lighter and 13 rounds. That was until I tried one at the range. I shot a box of mixed weights and found it to be a little snappy due to being so small and light weight. After shooting the 365 I picked up my Rami and sent a mag down range. OH WHAT A DIFFERENCE! The added weight suppressed some of the recoil and allowed me to get back on target much faster. Sometimes the grass isn't greener on the other side.
I suggest clean it, train like hell with it, go through the typical holster growing pains and hope you only have to use on the range.
Best of Luck!

A carry gun is a tool that you depend on for your life when the SHTF. I would not have much confidence in a "new" gun that arrived to me in that condition. My life is worth more than that. If someone is going to put a lot of rounds through my carry gun, that someone is going to be me, who will have had total control over what and how much was shot through it and how it was maintained.

I would just hope that the bastards who abused the OP's Rami didn't use it to test their +P++ hand loads, which could lead to trouble down the line. You never know what some people will do with somebody else's "borrowed mule."

If I was the OP, I would at least send it back to CZ USA for inspection with an explanation of what happened to it.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 12:40:30 AM by MeatAxe »