Author Topic: Bolt Lug Broken Off  (Read 9625 times)

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Offline TJNewton

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Bolt Lug Broken Off
« on: April 06, 2018, 01:36:14 AM »
It seems that I just had the same breakage as Centrone22 in this thread:

http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=96401.0

I'd just installed a tactical bolt release and was dry-cycling the action.  I racked and released the bolt about six or seven times and then I heard something hit the floor and roll.  Looking at the bolt face, the right, front, lower lug snapped off:

https://imgur.com/a/wfx6c

Centrone22:  Does this look the same as yours?

I've put 3700 rounds on this rifle. Of course, no way of telling how many rounds this bolt has endured previously. 

I replaced the broken bolt with a complete surplus bolt, including it's own locking piece.  I checked the head space with a "No-Go" SAAMI gauge and it's fine.  I have a total of three locking pieces:  The one that came with the broken bolt (numbered "3"), the one that came with the new bolt ("07"), and one from a parts kit ("11").  On having the bolt completely forward against the "No-Go" gauge, I measured the distance between the inside of the stripper clip guide and the rear sight block.  As the references points are somewhat arbitrary, I measured, took apart, reassembled, and remeasured each configuration twice.  The new bolt and locking piece have the same distance within 5/10,000th of an inch, and the greatest measurement difference from the original, broken bolt and locking piece and the new bolt and three locking pieces was 75/1,000th of an inch. 

I don't have a "Go" SAAMI gauge.  What is the tolerance between a "Go" gauge and a "No Go" gauge?  What do I need to look for when testing firing this new bolt/locking piece?  If it chambers, is it safe?   I feel confident that it will be fine as the comparative measurements, although not absolutely precise, are the same.  Would the new bolt and locking piece combo that resulted in a 75/1,000 of an inch difference be safe?

Thanks for any insights.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 01:36:55 PM by TJNewton »

Offline MeatAxe

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Re: Bolt Lug Broken Off
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2018, 01:56:51 AM »
It seems that I just had the same breakage as Centrone22 in this thread:

http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=96401.0

I'd just installed a tactical bolt release and was dry-cycling the action.  I racked and released the bolt about six or seven times and then I heard something hit the floor and roll.  Looking at the bolt face, the right, front, lower lug snapped off:

https://imgur.com/a/wfx6c

Centrone22:  Does this look the same as yours?

I've put 3700 rounds on this rifle. Of course, no way of telling how many rounds this bolt has endured previously. 

I replaced the broken bolt with a complete surplus bolt, including it's own locking piece.  I checked the head space with a "No-Go" SAAMI gauge and it's fine.  I have a total of three locking pieces:  The one that came with the broken bolt (numbered "3"), the one that came with the new bolt ("07"), and one from a parts kit ("11").  On having the bolt completely forward against the "No-Go" gauge, I measured the distance between the inside of the stripper clip guide and the rear sight block.  As the references points are somewhat arbitrary, I measured, took apart, reassembled, and remeasured each configuration twice.  The new bolt and locking piece have the same distance within 5/10,000th of an inch, and the greatest measurement difference from the original, broken bolt and locking piece and the new bolt and three locking pieces was 75/1,000th of an inch. 

I don't have a "Go" SAAMI gauge.  What is the tolerance between a "Go" gauge and a "No Go" gauge?  What do I need to look for when testing firing this new bolt/locking piece?  If it chambers, is it safe?   I feel confident that it will be fine as the comparative measurements, although not absolutely precise, are the same.  Would the new bolt and locking piece combo that resulted in a 75/10,000 of an inch difference be safe?

Thanks for any insights.


bleep, that sucks!

Was it a surplus bolt that broke or new manufacture?

Who built your rifle? CSA, Century or who?

Offline TJNewton

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Re: Bolt Lug Broken Off
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2018, 02:38:30 AM »
Surplus bolt.  I don't know if anyone manufactures new ones.  It's a VZ2008, Century build, but I don't think that either Century or Czechpoint had any responsibility in these failures.  Probably just metal fatigue.  The bolts could have been made as long as 60 years ago, and been subjected to several thousands of rounds of automatic fire. 

The barrel/chamber has a ghosting of all parts of the bolt it makes contact with, but no different from my other VZ2008.  No undue wear or indentation at the contact point of this broken lug.  I'd just used the "No-Go" gauge to check the head space on this broken bolt a couple of weeks ago at 3500 rounds to see if there was any deterioration but it was fine.

The new bolt has almost no wear markings (shiny flats) and I hope it holds out okay.

Offline MeatAxe

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Re: Bolt Lug Broken Off
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2018, 01:52:53 AM »
Surplus bolt.  I don't know if anyone manufactures new ones.  It's a VZ2008, Century build, but I don't think that either Century or Czechpoint had any responsibility in these failures.  Probably just metal fatigue.  The bolts could have been made as long as 60 years ago, and been subjected to several thousands of rounds of automatic fire. 

The barrel/chamber has a ghosting of all parts of the bolt it makes contact with, but no different from my other VZ2008.  No undue wear or indentation at the contact point of this broken lug.  I'd just used the "No-Go" gauge to check the head space on this broken bolt a couple of weeks ago at 3500 rounds to see if there was any deterioration but it was fine.

The new bolt has almost no wear markings (shiny flats) and I hope it holds out okay.

Seems like CSA must be making new bolts, at least on the .222 and .223 chamberings and maybe the single stack 7.62x39 Sporters.

I hope my $1,200 CSA rifle had a new bolt, or at least new old stock! Hate to think I'm shooting with a well used 60 year old surplus piece!

Offline RSR

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Re: Bolt Lug Broken Off
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2018, 09:29:21 PM »
Bolts on Czechpoint's website are listed as surplus condition, but that doesn't necessarily mean that bolts on complete imports are not new...

And we do know that they are making new bolt carriers.

Offline RSR

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Re: Bolt Lug Broken Off
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2018, 10:09:58 PM »
Go/no go should be between 4-6 thousandths in difference.  .004 to .006 
So .075 is a problem.

SAAMI vs CIP gauges should be around 7 ten-thousands difference.  So I would think that 5 ten-thousandths should be w/in a safe margin.

Worst-case, using a string, fire some rounds w/ your rifle locked into a rest w/ some brass cases to check for any signs of issues (steel hides problems more than brass).  Good reads w/ images:
https://www.sinclairintl.com/guntech/headspace-why-it-s-important-how-to-check-it/detail.htm?lid=17125
http://www.massreloading.com/reading_pressure_signs.html

Thinking in terms of car parts, I'd describe it as the "front lower LEFT" which is the skinnier piece.  Could just be metal fatigue I'd suppose.  But also, I'd think that dry manipulation vs w/ a round (including dummy) would result in the bolt outer edges potentially receiving more impact force than if there was a round being chambered.  Not saying this caused the problem, but it certainly revealed it, which suggests that dry cycling possibly did cause.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 12:00:56 AM by RSR »

Offline TJNewton

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Re: Bolt Lug Broken Off
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2018, 01:43:09 PM »
Thanks for the info!  I'm going to invest in a SAAMI Go gauge.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 02:17:15 PM by TJNewton »

Offline sparkyv

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Re: Bolt Lug Broken Off
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2018, 02:03:31 PM »
From the first image, the metal looks porous; reminds me of pig metal.
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Offline RSR

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Re: Bolt Lug Broken Off
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2018, 09:40:04 PM »
From the first image, the metal looks porous; reminds me of pig metal.

Went back and looked and didn't realize you could zoom...  I don't believe these bolts are pot metal.

TJ -- did you lose material in the groove for the ejector or just off that lug?  Looks rather dark down that central channel as if some material was lost there as well, but hard to tell due to pic quality...  Now I know that some of the later gen VZ2008s have rails that fit a little low.  On there return to battery there shouldn't be any major ejector to bolt interference, but recoiling out of battery, the bolt could possibly have snagged on the extractor enough times to cause damage if there was inadequate clearance there, and the bolts can tilt/move slightly as well due to combloc tolerances on these rifles... 

Worth investing at least.  And as I look at the zoomed in pic, metal being torn out of that center groove and diagonal out towards that lug (looks to fragment further back on channel than lug) would be a plausible scenario.

Offline LCR

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Re: Bolt Lug Broken Off
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2018, 02:03:49 PM »
this is pretty unsettling. those lugs impact on the barrel below the chamber.

I see three possibilities -

1. the bolts are old, worn parts
2. the design of the bolt is inadequate - more reinforcement is needed for those lugs. the cause of the failure could be repeated pressure from expanding cartridge cases
3. headspace is too tight, putting extra stress on the bolt

one thing is for sure - the CSA .223 version of the rifle has new manufacture bolts

« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 03:40:26 PM by LCR »

Offline TJNewton

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Re: Bolt Lug Broken Off
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2018, 03:44:50 PM »
From the first image, the metal looks porous; reminds me of pig metal.

Went back and looked and didn't realize you could zoom...  I don't believe these bolts are pot metal.

TJ -- did you lose material in the groove for the ejector or just off that lug?  Looks rather dark down that central channel as if some material was lost there as well, but hard to tell due to pic quality...  Now I know that some of the later gen VZ2008s have rails that fit a little low.  On there return to battery there shouldn't be any major ejector to bolt interference, but recoiling out of battery, the bolt could possibly have snagged on the extractor enough times to cause damage if there was inadequate clearance there, and the bolts can tilt/move slightly as well due to combloc tolerances on these rifles... 

Worth investing at least.  And as I look at the zoomed in pic, metal being torn out of that center groove and diagonal out towards that lug (looks to fragment further back on channel than lug) would be a plausible scenario.

Admittedly those pics aren't the best.  I looked in the ejector groove of the broken bolt and there's no unusual wear in that channel.  The break is clean, doesn't involve the channel, and the broken lug fits back without any (visible) gaps.  The ejector in the rifle is rounded and shiny on that side, but there are numerous shiny parts where the bolt and receiver interact, the wear being similar to my other VZ20008's.  I put the broken bolt into the receiver and while there is some lateral wiggle, it traveled smoothly and there was no palpable interference with the ejector while being moved back and forth under just light finger pressure.

Offline TJNewton

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Re: Bolt Lug Broken Off
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2018, 04:23:06 PM »
this is pretty unsettling. those lugs impact on the barrel below the chamber.

I see three possibilities -

1. the bolts are old, worn parts
2. the design of the bolt is inadequate - more reinforcement is needed for those lugs. the cause of the failure could be repeated pressure from expanding cartridge cases
3. headspace is too tight, putting extra stress on the bolt

one thing is for sure - the CSA .223 version of the rifle has new manufacture bolts

I did an extensive web search and could find only one other account of this breakage beside Centrone22's and mine.  That seems to make three total.  I suspect that it's excessive wear-and-tear.  If it were a design flaw, I think the problem would be more widely reported, perhaps on the level of broken SKS firing pins or Beretta 92 locking blocks.  I've read more accounts of VZ58 strikers or firing pins breaking, but those are also rare, fewer than a half dozen.  I've seen just one account of a VZ58 locking piece breaking from being dropped onto the floor.

It could be that these three broken bolts were all subjected to tens-of-thousands of rounds of automatic fire in their previous rifles.  It could also be that there was a bad shift at the foundry one Monday, Wednesday, or Friday anytime from 1958 to 1984, producing the faulty bolts from these three accounts.  It could also be the few hundredths or thousands of an inch of variances between the several surplus moving parts and the American-made receiver that created cumulative stresses on that one lug.  Impossible to tell, of course. 

It seems that despite the generous tolerances of the VZ58 design, there are some incompatibilities between parts made at different times from different factories.  In swapping parts between my VZ2008's and surplus kit, I've found that most interchange, but some have or would need fitting to be transferred.  One of my dust covers won't snap down tightly on one of the other rifles; it would fit with some minor filing.  I've experienced that with hand guards as well.  Some front sights are loose in some block sights and require Loctite.  Some strikers drag very slightly in some receivers, etching a pair of shiny strips in the receiver, while in others the more forward completely freely.  Forced March put up a video a while back going into detail on some differences between the moving parts.

I know it's been brought up before, but I'd like to know the significance of the stamped numbers on the locking pieces.  Mine have a sideways "3", and vertical "06", "07", and "11".  Do they account for correcting worn head space?  If so, that would be ingenious.  Are they irrelevant if the head space is good?  The bolts have different numbers etched into the sides, some with a with a circled "T".  Considering the difficulty of research due to the time and language barriers, theses questions will probably remain rhetorical.

« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 04:27:04 PM by TJNewton »

Offline RSR

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Re: Bolt Lug Broken Off
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2018, 11:36:22 PM »
From the first image, the metal looks porous; reminds me of pig metal.

Went back and looked and didn't realize you could zoom...  I don't believe these bolts are pot metal.

TJ -- did you lose material in the groove for the ejector or just off that lug?  Looks rather dark down that central channel as if some material was lost there as well, but hard to tell due to pic quality...  Now I know that some of the later gen VZ2008s have rails that fit a little low.  On there return to battery there shouldn't be any major ejector to bolt interference, but recoiling out of battery, the bolt could possibly have snagged on the extractor enough times to cause damage if there was inadequate clearance there, and the bolts can tilt/move slightly as well due to combloc tolerances on these rifles... 

Worth investing at least.  And as I look at the zoomed in pic, metal being torn out of that center groove and diagonal out towards that lug (looks to fragment further back on channel than lug) would be a plausible scenario.

Admittedly those pics aren't the best.  I looked in the ejector groove of the broken bolt and there's no unusual wear in that channel.  The break is clean, doesn't involve the channel, and the broken lug fits back without any (visible) gaps.  The ejector in the rifle is rounded and shiny on that side, but there are numerous shiny parts where the bolt and receiver interact, the wear being similar to my other VZ20008's.  I put the broken bolt into the receiver and while there is some lateral wiggle, it traveled smoothly and there was no palpable interference with the ejector while being moved back and forth under just light finger pressure.

Lateral movement isn't the concern.  It's the degree to which vertical movement of the bolt is possible. Hypothetically, if the internal rails are too low and top right at right height, that would allow for more vertical tilt.  I'll need to make some time to visually inspect to confirm, but hypothetically and given enough vertical travel, the bolt could tilt towards rear on recoil (not unlike AR carrier tilt) whereby the front of the bolt lifts up, forcing rear down, and continuing to the rear, the near front of the bolt impacts the ejector in a fashion that begins a fracture within the metal.  Then repeated enough times, it breaks. 

To test, try lifting the front of your bolt up 1/4" or so when testing and see if clearance w/ the ejector changes.  Lift up the rear 1/4" as well and try.  And to be clear, where the impact occurs could be part of a wave like motion whereby the front comes up and then the rear does before the bolt settles down.  Unfortunately, I don't have a high speed camera or a way to ensure entirety of bolt movement is visual.

Offline DWDM_IntheDFW

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Re: Bolt Lug Broken Off
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2018, 04:18:11 PM »
bleep. Had me worried there with this and Centrone's issue with their bolt. I think I'm in the clear; mine's the .223, so definitely not a potentially 60 year old, used/abused military bolt, and it's brand spanking new, so only proof rounds and possibly test rounds to check accuracy at the factory.
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Offline MeatAxe

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Re: Bolt Lug Broken Off
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2018, 02:51:25 AM »
bleep. Had me worried there with this and Centrone's issue with their bolt. I think I'm in the clear; mine's the .223, so definitely not a potentially 60 year old, used/abused military bolt, and it's brand spanking new, so only proof rounds and possibly test rounds to check accuracy at the factory.

I examined the bolt and bolt lock on my 7.62x39 CSA Vz58, and it certainly "looks" new -- not like the surplus parts you see for sale at Numrich, etc., which for the most part look like they've been buried at the bottom of the Mekong River for the last 50 years.

So, hoping for the best, but at least have that 5 year CSA warranty.