Author Topic: Army looking for new subgun  (Read 1413 times)

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Offline John A.

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Army looking for new subgun
« on: May 13, 2018, 08:48:50 AM »
Yep.  Didn't think I would ever be typing those words together.  Just 10 years ago, just about everyone and their brother were saying that subguns were obsolete.  Dead.  Worthless.  And a host of other negative adjectives.

Fast forward to today.

The Army is looking to add a new submachinegun to its' arsenal.

To my knowledge, CZ was going to move some of its' production to the US.  Perhaps just in time.  They better get it in gear if they want a fair shot to compete for the gold.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a20650291/the-us-army-is-looking-for-its-first-new-submachine-gun-in-75-years/

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Offline 3guneric

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Re: Army looking for new subgun
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2018, 09:33:32 PM »
I may stir up a hornets nest here but: Current Scorp is a No-Go from a military field-maintenance point of view.

I don't think the Army would ever go with the Scorpion because of the current design of the FCG.  There are too many small parts that don't intuitively go together!  I was a combat arms officer back in the day (arms room officer as well) and I have done the HBI spring deal but what a mess and how would GI's, who are all thumbs, deal with that mess: while tired, in the dark, in the rain...

I like the Scorp, but to me a guy w/ former Army experience, who now primarily shoots, and totally trusts, civilian copies of military guns (AK,AR, FAL, M1911, M92, Sig P226) I just do not get the same confidence level from the Scorp.  (I can't explain why, but it just does not have a "military" feel about it - more like a Ruger 10-22)  If CZ reworked the inner workings of the trigger - to make it soldier proof - it might have a chance.    I would rather them update the MP 40.  I am old enough to have used a Grease gun in 1984 in Germany.  They were simply bullet sprayers but simple to work and maintain.  (Am not recommending these!)

I know that you may have fired thousands of rounds through your Scorp, or that some military forces have adopted them, however my main point is that in a prolonged "field" environment I would not want to be responsible for repairing, maintaining, and training soldiers on this platform. 

This forum is replete with countless CZ Scorp "issues"  and we are not even talking about magazine reliability/durability which is HUGE in military arms.

Offline John A.

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Re: Army looking for new subgun
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2018, 09:42:56 PM »
How often do front line troops take even their trigger assemblies apart while routine cleaning?  Seems that a simple toothbrush will clean the majority of fouling out of a trigger pack.

The HK style triggers are more convoluted than the scorpion.  The scorpion A1 trigger reminds me of a half breed AK trigger but with a 3 round burst cam.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2018, 09:45:16 PM by John A. »
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Offline DDNC

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Re: Army looking for new subgun
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2018, 11:02:41 PM »
I may stir up a hornets nest here but: Current Scorp is a No-Go from a military field-maintenance point of view.

I don't think the Army would ever go with the Scorpion because of the current design of the FCG.  There are too many small parts that don't intuitively go together!  I was a combat arms officer back in the day (arms room officer as well) and I have done the HBI spring deal but what a mess and how would GI's, who are all thumbs, deal with that mess: while tired, in the dark, in the rain...

I like the Scorp, but to me a guy w/ former Army experience, who now primarily shoots, and totally trusts, civilian copies of military guns (AK,AR, FAL, M1911, M92, Sig P226) I just do not get the same confidence level from the Scorp.  (I can't explain why, but it just does not have a "military" feel about it - more like a Ruger 10-22)  If CZ reworked the inner workings of the trigger - to make it soldier proof - it might have a chance.    I would rather them update the MP 40.  I am old enough to have used a Grease gun in 1984 in Germany.  They were simply bullet sprayers but simple to work and maintain.  (Am not recommending these!)

I know that you may have fired thousands of rounds through your Scorp, or that some military forces have adopted them, however my main point is that in a prolonged "field" environment I would not want to be responsible for repairing, maintaining, and training soldiers on this platform. 

This forum is replete with countless CZ Scorp "issues"  and we are not even talking about magazine reliability/durability which is HUGE in military arms.
You may be correct. I can see them going with HK or more realistically B&T. The APC guns in rifle and pistol calibers have almost exact copies of the AR FCG.
Plus they are exceptional firearms.

Offline John A.

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Re: Army looking for new subgun
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2018, 11:19:34 PM »
I wasn't aware that B&T had a US production facility?

If not, that would automatically prevent them from having a US mil contract.
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Offline jameslovesjammie

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Re: Army looking for new subgun
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2018, 12:13:37 AM »
Isn't the FCG on the military Scorpion completely different than the civilian verison?

Offline 3guneric

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Re: Army looking for new subgun
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2018, 04:52:47 AM »
Not a question of how often you have to do "on the spot" - field fixes - but when.  On a number of occasions I had to tear down M240's, M2's, M85's and others on the front slope of a tank.  The Scorp, as sold on the civilian market (IMO) is just not soldier friendly.

I like my Scorp carbine, but to me, it is in a much lesser league than my other military style/patterned guns.

Offline hyrysc

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Re: Army looking for new subgun
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2018, 02:20:18 PM »
I may stir up a hornets nest here but: Current Scorp is a No-Go from a military field-maintenance point of view.

I don't think the Army would ever go with the Scorpion because of the current design of the FCG.  There are too many small parts that don't intuitively go together!  I was a combat arms officer back in the day (arms room officer as well) and I have done the HBI spring deal but what a mess and how would GI's, who are all thumbs, deal with that mess: while tired, in the dark, in the rain...

I like the Scorp, but to me a guy w/ former Army experience, who now primarily shoots, and totally trusts, civilian copies of military guns (AK,AR, FAL, M1911, M92, Sig P226) I just do not get the same confidence level from the Scorp.  (I can't explain why, but it just does not have a "military" feel about it - more like a Ruger 10-22)  If CZ reworked the inner workings of the trigger - to make it soldier proof - it might have a chance.    I would rather them update the MP 40.  I am old enough to have used a Grease gun in 1984 in Germany.  They were simply bullet sprayers but simple to work and maintain.  (Am not recommending these!)

I know that you may have fired thousands of rounds through your Scorp, or that some military forces have adopted them, however my main point is that in a prolonged "field" environment I would not want to be responsible for repairing, maintaining, and training soldiers on this platform. 

This forum is replete with countless CZ Scorp "issues"  and we are not even talking about magazine reliability/durability which is HUGE in military arms.

As much as I enjoy my Scorpion, if the dead started walking the earth, I would grab my 9mm AR long before the Scorpion. 

Offline Destructo6

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Re: Army looking for new subgun
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2018, 05:14:24 PM »
Quote
I don't think the Army would ever go with the Scorpion because of the current design of the FCG.  There are too many small parts that don't intuitively go together!  I was a combat arms officer back in the day (arms room officer as well) and I have done the HBI spring deal but what a mess and how would GI's, who are all thumbs, deal with that mess: while tired, in the dark, in the rain...
GIs wouldn't be allowed to remove trigger parts with a Scorpion, or MP5 for that matter, than they are currently allowed to remove trigger parts of a M4/M16.

GIs can separate the lower from the upper and remove the bolt for cleaning. That's it.

Anything more is depot level maintenance.

For a "same as the AR" subgun, the MPX would take the least training to get troops proficient.

Offline 3guneric

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Re: Army looking for new subgun
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2018, 07:49:57 PM »
When they broke in the field we did not always have the luxury of time to send them off - so yes we tinkered around trying to get them up and running right then and there.  Kudos to my old armorer SGT Hill who constantly revived our broken down M60's which were Vietnam War era relics.   

Things are different in the Army at different times in history.  I was in a large conventional tank division preparing for WW3.  We probably viewed things differently than the folks in the Army do now.  One thing that does not change is the need to be ready for all possible situations and the need to perhaps not follow the book.  We did all sorts of field fixes to get the firearms up and running. 

It was a very happy day when we received our new M2 .50 cal, and those new M240's just purred.  That M85 was junk.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 07:58:31 PM by 3guneric »

Offline krehmkej

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Re: Army looking for new subgun
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2018, 07:56:04 PM »
Keep in mind that the subgun would not be a tool for those on the pointy end of the spear, but rather for support troops.
A personal defense weapon, if you will.
IMHO, a Scorpion SBR might fill that requirement quite nicely.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 01:03:24 PM by krehmkej »
-jwk-

Offline 3guneric

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Re: Army looking for new subgun
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2018, 08:04:09 PM »
Now I can see that point.

Offline Silent service

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Re: Army looking for new subgun
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2018, 08:11:35 PM »
Now if only someone would make a stand alone drop in trigger assembly for the scorpion.....


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Offline 3guneric

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Re: Army looking for new subgun
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2018, 08:37:11 PM »
It will come in time.  These little Scorps are catching on and it is actually amazing how many after market products and services are available.  Quality mag pouches really needed as well.

Offline akuser47

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Re: Army looking for new subgun
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2018, 08:50:42 PM »
Field trials, cost and availability will play into this. Its not like this will be an M4 replacement it will be for specialized units. So it depends on who sells what better and how field trials prove what they want falls into a budget for this possible contract. I love that they are smart and getting a new line of PCC to think about. They have relevant use and need in the right applications in this modern age.

 

anything