Author Topic: Why so many issues with NIB guns  (Read 925 times)

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Online The Guardian

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Why so many issues with NIB guns
« on: July 11, 2018, 05:49:26 PM »
Guns for me truly is a hobby, I'm not a collector....though I do have my favorites.  I like trying a variety of firearms......in recent years I've noticed something that really hardly ever happened decades ago, in fact the further back you go the less issues there were..........the issue I'm speaking of specifically is guns that I buy new that end up having a variety of functional issues that require either me to fix which I normally do or send in for "warranty" work.  Anyone else experienced this increasingly common phenomenon?  :-\ 

Used guns are also increasingly needing "fixed" in troubling numbers.......maybe one issue feeds the other?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 05:57:04 PM by The Guardian »
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Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Re: Why so many issues with NIB guns
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2018, 07:47:11 PM »
Guns have had their issues down through the years. I remember my dad talking about shipments of S&W's and Colts that his dept. had to return for various issues. That was late 60's early 70's though so with our military conflicts going on at the time I'm sure the manufacturers were stretched to the limit.
That said much of what we see today is just poor QC coupled with the fact that gun companies don't have many if any true gunsmiths on hand.There is far too much CNC going on today and far too many so called "allowable" tolerance variations it's no wonder we see guns come out of the box with problems.
Way back when there was a whole lot of final hand fitting going on before a gun got boxed up and shipped so in those days many guns actually got some highly personal attention before they were shipped so you had a better chance of getting a good one. Today that's about non existent.
I've sent back S&W's, Springfields, Colt,Walther, And CZ as well. I won't even go into my Taurus nightmares.
Yea buying a gun today is a crap shoot far more than it should be.

Offline bang bang

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Re: Why so many issues with NIB guns
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2018, 02:19:52 PM »
you may have selective memory?????

i havent been collecting that long and only have a handful of whats out there.  recently i do like to buy and test drive whats out there for fun.  Of course they are all still in my collection with exception.

But i have had issues with i would say all the brands i have bought.  It  may not be out of the box issues, but everntually something will break. 

If you are a gunsmith you should know that they are mechanical tools.  Designed by man, made by man and inspected by man and overseen by beancounters.  I have no blinders or rose colored glass on when it comes to such things.  Im always thinking its not if, but when.   But my former co-worked called me a pessimist too - and i admit it.

you need to also take into account the QUANTITY of guns that are produced now.  The more thats made the more that will or may have issues, its just a matter of numbers.


Offline Earl Keese

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Re: Why so many issues with NIB guns
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2018, 03:09:38 PM »
"overseen by bean counters"
I think this is a large part of the equation, a certain percentage of defects or "exceptions" is acceptable. Of course, we also now have social media to discuss product issues, which changes the way things are perceived.

Offline rhart

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Re: Why so many issues with NIB guns
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2018, 06:06:20 PM »
I can't remember having any problems with any brand new guns, but then I only buy CZs and Sigs for the most part and I quit buying Sigs about two years ago in favor of CZs. I did buy a couple of M&Ps a while back, but no problems - just crappy triggers.
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Online The Guardian

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Re: Why so many issues with NIB guns
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2018, 07:28:04 PM »
......buying a gun today is a crap shoot far more than it should be.

I'm gonna partially quote you.......I think that sums up everything I was getting at! :-\   I will say CZ's haven't been a part of my experiences, so there is a glimmer of hope I suppose  ;)
“I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them."  John Wayne as J.B Books in "The Shootist" 1976

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Re: Why so many issues with NIB guns
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2018, 09:07:56 PM »
......buying a gun today is a crap shoot far more than it should be.

I'm gonna partially quote you.......I think that sums up everything I was getting at! :-\   I will say CZ's haven't been a part of my experiences, so there is a glimmer of hope I suppose  ;)

I will say of the 10 or so CZ's I've bought over the years 2 had to go back right away but the issue was resolved correctly the first time. All the other brands I mentioned with issues made at least 2 trips back and one S&W made 3 trips before they got it right.
My experience with CZ has been the best and CZ customer service was top shelf at least in my 2 cases.

Offline n8vmdpath

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Re: Why so many issues with NIB guns
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2018, 11:58:24 PM »
My CZs have been trouble free out of the box. Same for S&W, Marlins.....but with 2 Rugers ..both had issues.

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Offline hansb57

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Re: Why so many issues with NIB guns
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2018, 02:49:10 AM »
Maybe it's not only the gun.
Buyers are more educated, can share experiences through the net.
I have seen "problems" mentioned here that would never be a reason for me to return a gun but because other user supported them in the feeling something was wrong they sent it back.
Because you can share problems a lot easier nowadays, it might seem that there are more problems.

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Re: Why so many issues with NIB guns
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2018, 05:06:59 AM »
Maybe it's not only the gun.
Buyers are more educated, can share experiences through the net.
I have seen "problems" mentioned here that would never be a reason for me to return a gun but because other user supported them in the feeling something was wrong they sent it back.
Because you can share problems a lot easier nowadays, it might seem that there are more problems.

This happens sometimes but the fact is there really are more problems. I like working on my own guns but when they come out of the box with problems they ARE going back. When I send a revolver back to S&W because the cylinder binds when shooting in DA and the barrel cylinder gap is .015 which is double what it should be and they need 3 attempts at fixing it that's a real issue. Walther needed 2 attempts at repairing a PPK/S for a recall and a broken safety lever. 2 guns that went back to CZ were replaced with new guns. Colt needed 2 attempts at fixing a series 70 1911 that would destroy ejected brass and throw it back in my face because they are too stupid and behind the times to get away from using the old GI style ejector.
All real issues and I could go on. QC is on the back burner today in favor of quantity. New models are rushed to market without thorough testing. Just look at the mess SIG has with the new P365 for example.


Offline Vinny

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Re: Why so many issues with NIB guns
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2018, 05:31:57 AM »
Many of our guns today are a rehash of designs from over a century ago; when there were dedicated machinists and gunsmiths to insure quality. In the 1950-60's, I grew up in my father's machine shop and our training was not to stay within the tolerance; it was to stay at the center of the tolerance.

Trying to duplicate or better those century old designs we now have machine operators not machinists, outsourced parts, MIM and polymer components that are cast to mimic complicated parts that were formerly machined from billet metal stock, and few if any true gunsmiths and hand-fitting involved in the manufacturing process. QC has the lofty task of trying to catch all the errors using 'statistical analysis'. And if a manufacturer still has any gunsmiths; they are assigned to fixing the screw-ups from above.

To be produced in high volume yet remain reliable and precise; modern day guns must be designed to work within these modern day manufacturing limitations.  As Dirty Harry once said: "A man's got to know his limitations!"
« Last Edit: July 13, 2018, 08:47:23 AM by Vinny »
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Offline mdThanatos

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Re: Why so many issues with NIB guns
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2018, 07:33:04 PM »
Only issue I have had with a NIB gun was with a Rossi/Taurus, everything else has been good to me so far (knock on wood).  But because of the amount they are making and the speed at which they are making them, and with little individual attention, issues are bound to pop up on a few.

Offline Vinny

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Re: Why so many issues with NIB guns
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2018, 08:22:49 PM »
I think CZ is one of the few, maybe the only that actually test fires 5 rounds minimum and provides a sheet with the results before it goes in the box.

Last year I had a NIB Sig that came out of the sealed box with a trigger that would not reset on 1st round fired. If they did what CZ does, it would never have shipped that way. Of course SIG picked it up, repaired it, and sent it back fixed. But, how lame is that?

I'm not saying that CZ's are perfect, but at least they fire.  ::)
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Offline dragon813gt

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Re: Why so many issues with NIB guns
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2018, 09:58:50 AM »
The answer is simple and complicated at the same time.  The reason there are so many issues is lack of quality control.  But there are many reasons why this happens.  Accountants making decisions is high on the list.  The people working in QC are to blame as well.  But they’re being pressured to get the product out the door.  I’d go as far as saying the problem starts when you have people w/ degrees working at companies that have no knowledge of the product or their customers.

I think I’ve sent five of the last six Rugers I’ve bought back to the factory.  None of them should have ever left to begin w/.  Some had functional problems.  And others just weren’t finished to an acceptable standard.  I’m trying to remember the actual number I’ve sent back.  It may be a bit higher.  What’s happened is I will no longer buy a Ruger sight unseen.  I have no issue doing this w/ any CZ product. 

Companies will continue to lose customers if they don’t have quality control before the product leaves the factory.  Using customers as beta testers is bad for business.  But the higher ups usually cash out before it gets really bad.  This happens in all industries and it’s a shame because a lot of companies have been ruined.

Offline Tenbones

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Re: Why so many issues with NIB guns
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2018, 12:12:19 PM »
I guess a person's opinion on this would be determined, a lot,  by the number of guns they buy and use, i.e., first hand experience.  With the advent of the internet, issues that we normally would not hear about are suddenly out there for public knowledge and it seems like the gun industry is basically putting out junk.

I think the mindset of some of the gun industries upper management has changed from making sure they are putting out the best product possible, to getting their product out quickly, relying less on quality control.  They then depend on the customer to judge the quality and function, and then make changes or improvements, if necessary, based on the number of complaints they get.  Kind of a, "throw it out there and see if it sticks" attitude. 

This may be due to the increased competition among gun manufactures.  I don't know what the figures are, but it seems like somebody is coming out with a different, smaller (you name it) gun every month.