Berry 124gr FP Bullets Fit SP-01 ?

[rfogg]

I am loading 125gr BBI TC with 3.9gr hp-38, OAL 1.120.

My Lyman 50th edition gives me a
120gr LTC
OAL 1.10
2.9gr
and a
124gr Jacketed HP
OAL1.06
3.8gr

Hodgdon gives me
125gr HDY HAP
OAL1.069
2.8gn
and a
125gr LCN
OAL1.125
3.9gr

Speer gives me
124gr GDHP
OAL 1.120
4.0gr

ANd LEE gives me
125gr LB
OAL 1.125
3.9gr
 

I understand that I still need to work up a load. I didn't phrase the question very well. Since the reloading data that I have is kind of all over the place with some saying 2.8 and others saying 3.9 for a starting load. Where do you guys think I should start? 2.9gr seems really light seeing as I have the same seating depth for my BBI 125gr bullets.

[tdogg]

I'd do a ladder starting at 3.4 and increment .2gr up to 4.2gr, 10 rounds each.  Not for any scientific reason except you have a load at 3.9gr.  If you subract 10% that gives you 3.5gr and I would rather bracket the original load so drop it another tenth.

Do you have a chrono?  If not, I'd suggest getting one.  They are cheap enough now that there isn't really a reason not to own one.

Cheers,
Toby

[Wobbly]

So anyway my question is since both bullets are being seated in the case to the same depth that means the case would have the same volume for powder and I should be able to use the same 3.9gr of hp-38 for both bullets right? Or am I just completely out of my mind?

I think you simply forgot the first rule.

In order for loads to be similar, the bullet weight and construction have to be the same. The BBI bullet is lead, isn't it ? The Berry Mfg bullet is plated. Those share the same weight, but are NOT the same construction.

You need to read the Berry Mfg FAQs listed on their web site.

That brings me to my next question. I barely flare the case and when I'm done seating the bullet I end up with 0.378-0.379" at the case mouth, do I even need to crimp with that kind of measurement?

It only takes a dimensional error of as little as 0.002" to jam a cartridge inside the chamber.

Allow me to answer that by asking another question. You may load a case that has a ding or other surface distortion. The TC die in that instance will close up the case and iron out the problem area, which otherwise is going to lead to a cartridge being jammed into the chamber... which in turn will lock the slide halfway closed with a live round.

So which would you rather do... Increase the quality of your ammo production, or stand there beating on a loaded pistol, trying to get the slide to move, and run the risk of an AD into your foot or thigh ?

So why so stingy on the belling ?


 

[rfogg]

From Berry's website.

Please consult load data books or your powder manufacturers' website for load information. You can use any published data as long as it is the same weight (FMJ, Lead, Plated, etc.)

I took that as meaning that I could interchange the load data that I had worked up for my BBI bullets because they are the same weight and similar shape.

I didn't think about the case not being peffectly round before crimping I thought the sizing die would reshape it but it makes sense that it would be off after you shove a bullet into it.

I got stingy with the flaring because it seemed like if I put to much flare on the case then the LEE FCD did not seed to work as well. So I backed off until I could just barley get the bullet to stand straight in the case and the FCD seem to like it better. Hopefully my new taper crimp die which I got today will take care of that problem.

No I don't have a chrono yet it is on my list though. As my wife puts it "I have been blowing alot of money on my new hobby" She doesn't get the long term savings. And I haven't had the need for one until now everything else has been by the book.
 
So back to the powder I guess I will start with 3.4gr and hope for the best.

I'm sorry to be so needy. I just don't want to make the wrong decision.

[Wobbly]

My apologies. They changed their FAQs without contacting me. Huh, imagine that !   

They formally recommend using jacketed data up to mid-load. Because of the thickness of their plating, I think you'll still find that's the correct load range area.

With W231 and your OAL, I'd be loading between 4.0gr and 4.3gr in increments of 0.1gr.

[SoCal]

Also remember the Hornady HAP in 125 gr. is a jacketed bullet but is .356 in diameter instead of the usual .355.  This could result in increased pressure, looking at the Hodgdon data for the 125 gr. HAP all of the loads are reduced verses the sierra 125 gr. FMJ.

As mentioned earlier you must compare like construction, just because a bullet is 125 gr. does not mean you can use the same powder load or OAL.

[IDescribe]

Right. 

It always throws me when people share load data in the form of "I use 4.0 grains of Powder X for 124gr bullets."  If you look at a thorough load guide, like the Western/Ramshot/Accurate Load Guide (my favorite, personally), it lists 10 bullets in the 124/125gr weight category in 9mm for a number of powders.  For AA2, which is a fast burn rate powder, the max loads for 124/125 range from 3.6 to 4.8.    It ain't all about weight. 

In this particular case, now, going from coated lead to plated, I would expect the coated lead to produce higher pressures for a given charge weight, all else equal, so going from lead to plated, I would feel pretty comfortable.

[rfogg]

Sorry I've been gone for a while. Work has gotten in the way of play, but I was finally able to load up 5 rounds with 3.9 grns of HP-38 and I had no malfunctions and I still have all my fingers which I'm really happy about! I have loaded up 10 more with 3.9 and I also loaded 10 with 4.0. I'm hoping to get to the range either tomorrow or Wed and I will let you all know how they do.

I did make an observation with the spent cases. while the outside was clean, I noticed some spots on the inside. They just looked black at first, but after taking a picture and looking at it they look yellow.
 https://imgur.com/RF7T4wr

https://imgur.com/EDRObr7

I've never looked inside a shot case before so I don't know if this is normal. What do you all think?

[Wobbly]

That's simply unburned powder. You're doing great. Keep incrementing up and shooting at the same size targets at the same distance. If the pistol is cycling and will lock back on empty, then do your incrementals in steps of 0.1gr.

You're very close.

[tdogg]

If the outside is free of powder residue then you are getting enough pressure to seal off the case to the chamber upon ignition.  In my opinion, this is more important to ensure you don't get a bunch of powder blow back into the action.

If the inside is clean, the gun shoots accurately, and makes enough velocity then you have a winner.  I've never found a super clean interior case with my reloads but have picked up cases that were pretty darn clean inside at the range.  One of my fellow LEO competition guys shoots some lead free bullet (polymer)? that is factory loaded in a speer case (45acp with a small pistol primer pocket) and it comes out looking new after firing!  It is a super clean burning 45 cartridge!

Cheers,
Toby

[rfogg]

I thought it was probably unburned powder but the fact that it looked yellow when a light was shined on it made me unsure.

And there is no soot on the outside of the case so that is good.

I'm not really concerned about the couple of flakes of powder left in the case, but for my own curiosity I vaguely remember reading somewhere that more powder would make for a more efficient burn. Basically they were saying that instead of a black soot you would get more of a tan. Would that help burn the rest of the powder?

[Wobbly]

Yes, powder burns best under pressure. More pressure brings more efficiency to the burn. By "efficiency" I mean closer to the powder's optimal pressure, and as a result of that, a more complete burn.

Have you ever played with a kerosene lantern? If the wick is too high you get lots of soot. When you roll down the wick the lantern light gets brighter and the burn is cleaner, so the soot disappears. Efficiency in those terms is more light by burning less fuel. It's almost the same with the powder, which is nothing more than another fuel that's being burned.

So the trick is to find or load a powder into its optimal burn pressure zone, where coincidentally the bullets are all going to the same place on the target. When you get in that unicorn-like zone, all the powder will be consumed and there will be zero soot. Plus the bullets are going where you want !

For a lot of 9mm and 38 cal cartridges, that happens right around the burn rate of W231 and HP-38. That's why you have so many powder choices that seem to be "crowding" that "burn rate" range.

And yes, like reading a spark plug from an engine that burns gasoline as its fuel, you may start to see a grey or tan color inside the spent case. Or you may even see a case that looks brand new inside. But don't get carried away and go chasing case color !!! The thing to chase is bullet placement.



Sometimes when you get really into reloading and have 15 powders at your disposal, it's easy to forget.... Oh yea, we started all this to get better bullet placement !

 

[Wobbly]

The second part of that story is that the chamber pressure is not a straight line. Due to the efficiencies the pressure feeds the burn and so a lot more is achieved with a lot less. So the pressure is a curve. I say that to point out that you may have originally been using incremental load steps of 0.2gr, but when you reach that point it's important to go back and refine your load with finer increments.

Make sense ?

[rfogg]

What you're saying makes sense.

I have updated my info like you asked. ( I didn't realize anyone looked at that.)

I was able to get to the range today and shot the bullets that were loaded with 3.9 and 4.0. I didn't see any signs of over pressure.

The one problem I did have was that 2 out of the 4 times when I loaded by using the slide release the bullet did not feed. I had no ftf when I was shooting though.  I loaded up some more at 4.1 and 4.2 but I stretched the OAL out to 1.055". I'm hoping that my help but so far everything is working great.

Thanks again for all your help guys.

[Wobbly]

The one problem I did have was that 2 out of the 4 times when I loaded by using the slide release the bullet did not feed.  I had no FTF when I was shooting though. 

More explanation needed.

? "FTF" can mean 10 different things. So you're loading these in an SP-01, and the cartridges are a) failing to strip off the mag, b) failing to go into the chamber, or c) making it into the chamber but the slide is not going forward enough to go into battery ??

? I also re-read this thread and don't see where you did YOUR "push test" to determine YOUR Max OAL for that bullet in YOUR barrel. Where did you get your OAL numbers from ?

? And I also see where you got the wrong crimp die and sent it back. But you never told us what you set your taper crimp diameter to when you got the new die. Oh, there was some discussion of "no taper crimp" being used because you weren't belling the case mouth a lot, but never any discussion of where you finally set the TC die.

Just awaiting a full and complete answer on all 3 questions.