Author Topic: P-Series Design: Simplicity & Robustness  (Read 5984 times)

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Offline monty_d_33

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Re: P-Series Design: Simplicity & Robustness
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2018, 12:22:07 PM »
If CZ had the aftermarket support that Glock has (that?s you Safariland) I wouldn?t look back


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We have BETTER aftermarket support for our CZ's through CGW and CZ Custom who deliver top quality parts always. Yeah there's a bunch of outfits making gimmicks for glocks but it's not all quality either.
That isn't really the same thing. Most people in most places, can't walk into their LGS buy a CZ and walk out with the following:  spare mags, aftermarket sights, grips, + two base plates or whatever else they want when they want it; however, things are moving in that direction for CZ, but it isn't even close.
Hopefully it continues in the right direction


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Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Re: P-Series Design: Simplicity & Robustness
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2018, 02:49:36 PM »
If CZ had the aftermarket support that Glock has (that?s you Safariland) I wouldn?t look back


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We have BETTER aftermarket support for our CZ's through CGW and CZ Custom who deliver top quality parts always. Yeah there's a bunch of outfits making gimmicks for glocks but it's not all quality either.
That isn't really the same thing. Most people in most places, can't walk into their LGS buy a CZ and walk out with the following:  spare mags, aftermarket sights, grips, + two base plates or whatever else they want when they want it; however, things are moving in that direction for CZ, but it isn't even close.

If you have any gun shops around your neck of the woods that carry ALL that stuff for ALL the popular guns on the market you are lucky. You can find spare mags for just about ANYTHING including CZ's here in Northeast Ohio but no one carries sights around here for anything. The only grips to be found are for 1911's. Glock parts and accessories have to be ordered just like anything else.
There is a supplier about an 1-1/2 hrs north of me who does carry many accessories for many guns but for the cost of fuel and a more than 3 hr trip it's still cheaper to order and wait.

Offline Vinny

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Re: P-Series Design: Simplicity & Robustness
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2018, 03:19:39 PM »
If CZ had the aftermarket support that Glock has (that?s you Safariland) I wouldn?t look back


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We have BETTER aftermarket support for our CZ's through CGW and CZ Custom who deliver top quality parts always. Yeah there's a bunch of outfits making gimmicks for glocks but it's not all quality either.
That isn't really the same thing. Most people in most places, can't walk into their LGS buy a CZ and walk out with the following:  spare mags, aftermarket sights, grips, + two base plates or whatever else they want when they want it; however, things are moving in that direction for CZ, but it isn't even close.

If you have any gun shops around your neck of the woods that carry ALL that stuff for ALL the popular guns on the market you are lucky. You can find spare mags for just about ANYTHING including CZ's here in Northeast Ohio but no one carries sights around here for anything. The only grips to be found are for 1911's. Glock parts and accessories have to be ordered just like anything else.
There is a supplier about an 1-1/2 hrs north of me who does carry many accessories for many guns but for the cost of fuel and a more than 3 hr trip it's still cheaper to order and wait.
+1
I understand those who won't buy a firearm without holding, inspecting and dry-firing before buying.
However, when it comes to parts....I've gotten where I no longer drive around and waste my time and gas to see if I can find things in stores anymore. Their limited selection is a joke. And I can usually learn more about those products reading the manufacturers website, U Tube instructional videos, and the knowledgeable experience of folks on CZ Forum than the 'clerks' in those stores and pawn shops. Sorry, the good ones are few and far between.
Whereas a 30 second search on Google or www.gun.deals and I can have almost anything, even the most exotic of parts, delivered to my door within two days for usually less money. Amazon Prime is my friend!
« Last Edit: August 26, 2018, 03:26:29 PM by Vinny »
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Offline Joe L

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Re: P-Series Design: Simplicity & Robustness
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2018, 08:18:49 AM »
How do the hammer-fired CZ P-series pistols compare to GLOCK in regard to simplicity of design (ease of repair/upgrades) and robustness/reliability?

If you want to see how they disassemble/reassemble, check these videos out. 

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7GbOFIiTV0zywDb1XrQ2FMDvFsgCtXkF

Very reliable and accurate enough for bullseye matches. 

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline SIGnoramus

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Re: P-Series Design: Simplicity & Robustness
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2018, 10:55:51 AM »
How do the hammer-fired CZ P-series pistols compare to GLOCK in regard to simplicity of design (ease of repair/upgrades) and robustness/reliability?

If you want to see how they disassemble/reassemble, check these videos out. 

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7GbOFIiTV0zywDb1XrQ2FMDvFsgCtXkF

Very reliable and accurate enough for bullseye matches. 

Joe

Thanks for the very helpful info!
Formerly Owned:
75 B 9mm
SP-01 Tactical 9mm

Offline wild_Bill77

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Re: P-Series Design: Simplicity & Robustness
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2018, 01:01:24 PM »
I own a p10c a p07 a p09 and a cz 75. I also own one gen 5 glock 19 and a gen 3 glock 19. Also built a polymer 80 glock 19. Ive worked on glocks replaced connectors, triggers springs and have gotten very familiar with the platform. And one thing that I learned from a design perspective that is obvious with Glock design is simplicity. The whole gun comes apart in 3 minutes or less it has only two pins (gen 5) (3 pins gen 3) that do not need a hammer to remove. Hell you probably could use a toothpick! The parts themselves are robust not precision by any means but consistent. As for the p07 design it is also robust in design with a little more part refinement. And for a hammer fired gun the omega trigger system is about as simple as a hammer fired design can get. Remember less moving parts simpler design = better reliability for the most part. Course the design and quality of the materials used has to be sound for this rule to apply as well. The p07 is not as easy to take apart as a glock. But its built like a tank and I would stack that gun against any glock made for reliability. Now the p10 c this is where I would hit the brakes and not enter any reliability contests with it against the p07 or Glock. The design of this gun is amazing but its got some bugs still in my opinion. Reports of cracked frames and wiggling back plates and rotating strikers dont give me warm fuzzies. These issues need to be adressed and cz needs to tell people that they are instead of acting like there is no issues then making design changes in secret. But the p10 c is built tough for sure. As for egronomics there is none better than cz. The p10 c and p07 feels amazing in the hand. Glocks...not so much. But again if all you use is glock you can get used to it. Its just not ideal.

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Offline monty_d_33

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Re: P-Series Design: Simplicity & Robustness
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2018, 01:28:59 PM »
I own a p10c a p07 a p09 and a cz 75. I also own one gen 5 glock 19 and a gen 3 glock 19. Also built a polymer 80 glock 19. Ive worked on glocks replaced connectors, triggers springs and have gotten very familiar with the platform. And one thing that I learned from a design perspective that is obvious with Glock design is simplicity. The whole gun comes apart in 3 minutes or less it has only two pins (gen 5) (3 pins gen 3) that do not need a hammer to remove. Hell you probably could use a toothpick! The parts themselves are robust not precision by any means but consistent. As for the p07 design it is also robust in design with a little more part refinement. And for a hammer fired gun the omega trigger system is about as simple as a hammer fired design can get. Remember less moving parts simpler design = better reliability for the most part. Course the design and quality of the materials used has to be sound for this rule to apply as well. The p07 is not as easy to take apart as a glock. But its built like a tank and I would stack that gun against any glock made for reliability. Now the p10 c this is where I would hit the brakes and not enter any reliability contests with it against the p07 or Glock. The design of this gun is amazing but its got some bugs still in my opinion. Reports of cracked frames and wiggling back plates and rotating strikers dont give me warm fuzzies. These issues need to be adressed and cz needs to tell people that they are instead of acting like there is no issues then making design changes in secret. But the p10 c is built tough for sure. As for egronomics there is none better than cz. The p10 c and p07 feels amazing in the hand. Glocks...not so much. But again if all you use is glock you can get used to it. Its just not ideal.

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Wild Bill, I like and agree with your assessment.  I guess my question is whether you personally think the simplicity of the Glock makes up for some of the shortcomings?


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Offline flattusmaximus78

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Re: P-Series Design: Simplicity & Robustness
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2018, 09:18:37 PM »
If CZ had the aftermarket support that Glock has (that?s you Safariland) I wouldn?t look back


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We have BETTER aftermarket support for our CZ's through CGW and CZ Custom who deliver top quality parts always. Yeah there's a bunch of outfits making gimmicks for glocks but it's not all quality either.
That isn't really the same thing. Most people in most places, can't walk into their LGS buy a CZ and walk out with the following:  spare mags, aftermarket sights, grips, + two base plates or whatever else they want when they want it; however, things are moving in that direction for CZ, but it isn't even close.

If you have any gun shops around your neck of the woods that carry ALL that stuff for ALL the popular guns on the market you are lucky. You can find spare mags for just about ANYTHING including CZ's here in Northeast Ohio but no one carries sights around here for anything. The only grips to be found are for 1911's. Glock parts and accessories have to be ordered just like anything else.
There is a supplier about an 1-1/2 hrs north of me who does carry many accessories for many guns but for the cost of fuel and a more than 3 hr trip it's still cheaper to order and wait.
+1
I understand those who won't buy a firearm without holding, inspecting and dry-firing before buying.
However, when it comes to parts....I've gotten where I no longer drive around and waste my time and gas to see if I can find things in stores anymore. Their limited selection is a joke. And I can usually learn more about those products reading the manufacturers website, U Tube instructional videos, and the knowledgeable experience of folks on CZ Forum than the 'clerks' in those stores and pawn shops. Sorry, the good ones are few and far between.
Whereas a 30 second search on Google or www.gun.deals and I can have almost anything, even the most exotic of parts, delivered to my door within two days for usually less money. Amazon Prime is my friend!

I haven't been to a LGS in Orlando (Including Acadmy) where I couldn't buy a Glock or even an M&P and could not get night sights, extra mags, base pads, talon grips, and the list goes on.

Orlando isn't the gun mecca either.

Also, I agree I don't drive around for anything anymore either; but since we are comparing aftermarket support in general, that is irrelevant. There is more support in brick and mortar as well as the internet when it comes to Glock vs. CZ.

Offline wild_Bill77

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Re: P-Series Design: Simplicity & Robustness
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2018, 09:54:34 PM »
I own a p10c a p07 a p09 and a cz 75. I also own one gen 5 glock 19 and a gen 3 glock 19. Also built a polymer 80 glock 19. Ive worked on glocks replaced connectors, triggers springs and have gotten very familiar with the platform. And one thing that I learned from a design perspective that is obvious with Glock design is simplicity. The whole gun comes apart in 3 minutes or less it has only two pins (gen 5) (3 pins gen 3) that do not need a hammer to remove. Hell you probably could use a toothpick! The parts themselves are robust not precision by any means but consistent. As for the p07 design it is also robust in design with a little more part refinement. And for a hammer fired gun the omega trigger system is about as simple as a hammer fired design can get. Remember less moving parts simpler design = better reliability for the most part. Course the design and quality of the materials used has to be sound for this rule to apply as well. The p07 is not as easy to take apart as a glock. But its built like a tank and I would stack that gun against any glock made for reliability. Now the p10 c this is where I would hit the brakes and not enter any reliability contests with it against the p07 or Glock. The design of this gun is amazing but its got some bugs still in my opinion. Reports of cracked frames and wiggling back plates and rotating strikers dont give me warm fuzzies. These issues need to be adressed and cz needs to tell people that they are instead of acting like there is no issues then making design changes in secret. But the p10 c is built tough for sure. As for egronomics there is none better than cz. The p10 c and p07 feels amazing in the hand. Glocks...not so much. But again if all you use is glock you can get used to it. Its just not ideal.

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Wild Bill, I like and agree with your assessment.  I guess my question is whether you personally think the simplicity of the Glock makes up for some of the shortcomings?


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Yes ultimately I do. The reliability of Glocks is just amazing I cannot deny it. And with arguably the strongest aftermarket support (maybe 2nd to the 1911) you can upgrade just about anything on their guns. Tailor it to however you want it. Dont like the trigger? Sights? Even ergos? Theres hundreds of companys that you can get parts from or do service for them. Most are pretty reasonable price wise.

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Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Re: P-Series Design: Simplicity & Robustness
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2018, 05:38:47 AM »
Now the p10 c this is where I would hit the brakes and not enter any reliability contests with it against the p07 or Glock. The design of this gun is amazing but its got some bugs still in my opinion. Reports of cracked frames and wiggling back plates and rotating strikers dont give me warm fuzzies. These issues need to be adressed and cz needs to tell people that they are instead of acting like there is no issues then making design changes in secret. But the p10 c is built tough for sure. As for egronomics there is none better than cz. The p10 c and p07 feels amazing in the hand. Glocks...not so much. But again if all you use is glock you can get used to it. Its just not ideal.

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The P10C issues have been addressed.CZ tends to address issues as fast and in most cases faster than most other makes. I don't think they ever acted like there wasn't a problem like say glock did with the gen 4 brass to the face debacle?
Not bashing glock but I don't think any one needs to put out a news release as to what changes are being made. There was never a safety issue with the P10C so a recall wasn't warranted.
CZ paid shipping both ways and repaired early models under warranty just like S&W,Springfield Armory,glock and like SIG is doing right now with the P365 issues.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2018, 05:48:56 AM by SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM »

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: P-Series Design: Simplicity & Robustness
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2018, 06:09:00 AM »
I used to work for one of the largest chemical companies in the world.  They constantly stressed how safe they were and how important - vital - safety was to management and every day work practices.

If someone (that worked for them) made a negative comment about their safety practices it sometimes got them fired.

Guess what?  I worked for them in two different production sites.  The quickest way to make a manager disappear was to have someone do something unsafe in front of them.  They'd haul butt back upstairs ASAP to keep from having to deal with the issue.  If you brought up problems at meetings they'd argue that the problem didn't exist.

Just because a company "says" they do something, or don't do something, has little bearing on reality.  It's a corporation.  The idea is to make money, at all costs.  It costs money to make a quality product, to stay on top of issues and to correct problems.

Having said all that, I can say the only brand of pistols I never, ever had a malfunction with was my XDMs, both of them fed, fired, ejected every round I ever loaded in a magazine.  No matter the bullet weight, shape, or how the bullet was constructed.

I have one Colt 1911, and several CZ's (then again I have more CZ's than anything else) that have never had a malfunction.

Even my old time S&W revolvers had malfunctions not long after I first got them.  That was 30+ years ago when most people think they were perfect.

And I do own one Glock and you'll notice I didn't mention it had never had a malfunction (it had one, a stovepipe jam that left and empty hung up in the ejection port that kept the slide from chambering the next round.)

Guns are machines, some are better than others, that's just the way it is.  Few things are PERFECT.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline briang2ad

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Re: P-Series Design: Simplicity & Robustness
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2018, 01:47:55 PM »
No gun is as easy to upgrade as a Glock.  But let?s go apples/apples.  The P series is VERY easy to work on and there is good support.  I believe the design is robust.  Of course if you read for 10 minutes you know that the trigger spring can be an issue.  I?ve also heard of rollers going bad (one thread).  I?m sure plenty here have had several thousands of rounds with no problems.  They are straightforward to take down.  Getting the decocker spring back in CAN be tough.  But generally it is a simple gun.

Offline wild_Bill77

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Re: P-Series Design: Simplicity & Robustness
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2018, 07:06:58 PM »
Now the p10 c this is where I would hit the brakes and not enter any reliability contests with it against the p07 or Glock. The design of this gun is amazing but its got some bugs still in my opinion. Reports of cracked frames and wiggling back plates and rotating strikers dont give me warm fuzzies. These issues need to be adressed and cz needs to tell people that they are instead of acting like there is no issues then making design changes in secret. But the p10 c is built tough for sure. As for egronomics there is none better than cz. The p10 c and p07 feels amazing in the hand. Glocks...not so much. But again if all you use is glock you can get used to it. Its just not ideal.

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The P10C issues have been addressed.CZ tends to address issues as fast and in most cases faster than most other makes. I don't think they ever acted like there wasn't a problem like say glock did with the gen 4 brass to the face debacle?
Not bashing glock but I don't think any one needs to put out a news release as to what changes are being made. There was never a safety issue with the P10C so a recall wasn't warranted.
CZ paid shipping both ways and repaired early models under warranty just like S&W,Springfield Armory,glock and like SIG is doing right now with the P365 issues.
I stand by my opinion.  The very fact a company will not address quality or design defects nor issue at least as statement on their website stating what they are and what they are doing about it, leaves the consumers guessing and unsure. Example imagine how many potential customers were put off by the Omaha outdoors youtube video of the rotating striker?

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Offline M1A4ME

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Re: P-Series Design: Simplicity & Robustness
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2018, 06:06:21 AM »
A P10C is not a P07 or a P09.

If you don't trust a P10C (I don't, I've bought too darn many new things the first year they came out - ask me about the K5 Blazer I bought the first year the put diesels and 4 spd. automatics in them) buy a P09 or P07.

I prefer to let others do the field testing on new guns.  Or I should.

A couple months back I bought one of the "new" M&P .380 Shield "EZ" pistols.  Brand new, sitting on the shelf at a local gun store.  Got it home, went to the S&W web site to register it for warranty purposes and found out there was already a safety recall on them.  When firing the safeties would sometimes move into the SAFE position (which means it stops firing when you need it to fire). 

All I had to do was type in my serial number to see if mine was under the recall.  Guess what, the S&W website didn't work.  My serial number (right off the side of the S&W pistol frame) was an "invalid serial number".  I called the phone number on the website and the lady told me the pistol I bought needed to be sent in for modifications and e-mailed me a return authorization number.

Brand new, I didn't even get to shoot it, no ads in the gun magazines or gun forums about a safety recall on them either.  When I went to the M&P forum I found out some of them had yet another problem.  When you shoot the next to the last shot in the pistol and it ejected the empty it also ejected the last round from the magazine, so you get one less shot that you thought you had.  People were trying to fix that themselves by modifying the follower as S&W was still unsure what to do to fix it.

Companies are companies.  The idea is to make money.  You don't make money by publicizing mistakes.  And, sometimes, when people holler the gun ain't working right, it ain't the gun.  So they have to consider that, too.

Somehow, all the testing done at the factory just never quite duplicates what the people on the street will do to a new product.

Beretta 92's with the back half of the slide breaking loose and hitting people in the face.

Sigs firing when you drop them.

Glocks throwing empties into your face.

Colts with aluminum frames that crack.

The list goes on and on.

I'm heavily invested in CZ's.  After owning semi auto pistols made by Colt, Ruger, S&W, Beretta, Browning, SA, Para Ordnance, and Glock I've found the most reliable, most accurate and best fit for my hand pistols out there.  CZ.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline Indy_Tim

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Re: P-Series Design: Simplicity & Robustness
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2018, 11:31:02 AM »
My take on the simplicity & robustness question is that the CZ poly pistols compare quite well to the Glock pistols in reliability and possibly exceed them in robustness.

This is based on my experience with owning 3 P09s, 2 P07s (third on it?s way), 2 P10Cs, 2 G19.3s, 1 G23.3, 2 G30sf?s, 1 G23.4, 2 G20s, 1 G29, 1 G21 and 2 G27s.  The thing that I really like about the Glock is its simplicity.  They are remarkably simple in design.  However, they do not have a lock on the top spot for reliability.  In fact, Glocks have been among my most troublesome pistols exceeding in issues only by my .40 CZs.  Both Glocks and .40 CZs run fine though once sorted out. 

The issues I?ve had with the Glocks are mags that would not drop free, triggers that would not reset, a G19 that would not feed a full mag of ammo until broken in, stove pipes on rare occasions and lots and lots of brass to the face.  Both of my G30sf?s eject brass straight to my forehead unless I?m running hot ammo.  Regular target stuff dings my shooting glasses up with 60% of the ejected cases headed straight to my face.

Issues I?ve had with my poly CZs are a clocked striker on a P10C that CZ fixed quickly and a used .40 P07 not feeding ammo correctly until I refreshed all springs and added extra power mag springs.  I currently have 6 CZs in .40 with a 7th being shipped this week.  3 of those where problematic but all were bought used and with the right springs run fantastic now.

Glocks finishes seem to be getting worse while CZ finishes seem to be getting better.  The Glock striker channel seems to be more susceptible to debrie too as just the mention of oil near the striker on a Glock will bring people out of the woodwork to call you a moron.

I am not a fan of roll pins and it pains me to see CZ embrace them on their pistols.  That is where the Glock and P07/P09 shine.  You can do a pretty thorough disassembly without knocking a roll pin out like you have to do with the P10C.  I sold all of my CZ clones because of the use of roll pins in places that the 75B uses solid pins.

I?m rambling now, so I?ll stop here.