Author Topic: Good Article on Controlling Recoil  (Read 630 times)

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Offline ReloaderFred

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Good Article on Controlling Recoil
« on: September 13, 2018, 10:37:26 AM »
Here is a good article concerning recoil by choosing different powders:

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/6/19/gunpowder-selection-for-controlling-recoil

Hope this helps.

Fred
After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. - William S. Burroughs

Offline PistolShooter

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Re: Good Article on Controlling Recoil
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2018, 11:52:00 AM »
Cool.

Offline Dan_69GTX

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Re: Good Article on Controlling Recoil
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2018, 02:54:30 PM »
Interesting!  Thanks!
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Offline Wobbly

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Re: Good Article on Controlling Recoil
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2018, 03:27:12 PM »
Those powders aren't listed by "burn rate", but rather by load to achieve the same bullet velocity. So basically, you want to choose one that doesn't require the use of much powder (by weight).
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Offline M1A4ME

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Re: Good Article on Controlling Recoil
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2018, 04:06:23 PM »
Hmm.

Makes you think/wonder...

If recoil is less with one powder than another
1) is it because one creates less gas pressure than the other (meaning, I think, chamber pressure)
2) if one produces less pressure than another, how does it push the bullet to the same velocity?  It seems, anyway, that a higher pressure should equal a higher velocity if everything else is equal (maybe not in a rifle barrel where pressure peaks can be several inches from each other, but pistol barrels are barely longer than many rifle cartridges, meaning distances between peak pressure should be very close, compared to rifles

Or, is recoil not just from the "work" of speeding up the bullet and getting it out of the end of the barrel, but maybe also from the "rocket thrust" effect of unburned powder exiting the barrel in a flash/roar when the slower powders are used?
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline Earl Keese

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Re: Good Article on Controlling Recoil
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2018, 10:30:52 PM »
Interesting, thanks for sharing.

Offline IDescribe

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Re: Good Article on Controlling Recoil
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2018, 11:53:26 PM »
1) is it because one creates less gas pressure than the other (meaning, I think, chamber pressure)

Recoil is energy.  You feel recoil.  Pressure is force.  You don't feel pressure.  The action pistol loads with the fastest burn rate powders have the highest peak pressure, but are the softest shooting.


2) if one produces less pressure than another, how does it push the bullet to the same velocity? 

By pushing hard longer.

It seems, anyway, that a higher pressure should equal a higher velocity if everything else is equal

All else is not equal with different powders.  At the same charge weight, the slower powder does not reach the same peak pressure or velocity.  BUT because it builds pressure more slowly, it allows you to use MORE powder and extend the time that the pressure continues to accelerate the bullet significantly.

Remember that there are two things working against each other in the pressure department.  The powder burns and expands rapidly, increasing pressure, but the bullet is moving down the barrel, effectively expanding the chamber containing the pressure, which reduces pressure.  At first, the expanding gas is winning the battle, and pressure is climbing, then the pressure reducing effect of the expanding chamber exceeds the pressure increasing effect of the expanding gases, and pressure starts to fall.  The moment of transition between those two trends is peak pressure. 

With a super-fast powder, you may have almost all of that powder burned as it crosses the peak pressure point, and it has nothing left to fight the expanding chamber, so pressure drops very quickly, but a slower powder of a heavier charge weight will keep up the fight longer, so the pressure is still falling, but not as fast as it would with no or little powder still burning.  This results in a higher average rate of acceleration because the slower powder of a higher charge weight is able to  push hard for a longer period of time.

« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 06:48:52 AM by IDescribe »

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: Good Article on Controlling Recoil
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2018, 06:37:30 AM »
Equal velocity (with same bullets) means equal amount of work done to get the bullet moving??  Maybe not, but on the face of this it appears that equal work has to be done to obtain equal results/velocity.

I can see a slower burning powder doing it's work over a longer period of time with a lower "peak" effort, resulting in the amount of work being equal - over time.

I'm not sure I notice recoil differences from one 9MM load to another.  From one caliber to another, yeah.  From one pistol to another, yeah, again.

I guess, as they say, recoil is a subjective thing.  For example, I shoot the same loads in my P07 and P09 and the P09 recoil is more noticeable to me.  It shouldn't be as the P09 is heavier/longer/fills the hand better for getting a good solid grip, etc., but the P09 recoil bothers me to the point where I don't shoot it much (all factory springs/guides, etc.)

Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline IDescribe

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Re: Good Article on Controlling Recoil
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2018, 07:20:12 AM »
Equal velocity (with same bullets) means equal amount of work done to get the bullet moving??  Maybe not, but on the face of this it appears that equal work has to be done to obtain equal results/velocity.

The mass and velocity of the gases contribute to muzzle energy and recoil energy.  It's not just the bullet.


I'm not sure I notice recoil differences from one 9MM load to another.   From one caliber to another, yeah.  From one pistol to another, yeah, again.

IF you actively look to feel the difference from one load to the next in 9mm, even small differences are easily felt.  But in practice, if you're just shooting and not looking for it, the differences need to be significant for you to be aware of it.   It's funny -- action pistol shooting keeps your brain so focused on other things that recoil differences need to be dramatic for you to be aware of them, but that's the arena where people push the limits of safe reloading the hardest -- for the purpose of recoil differences they'll never notice.


For example, I shoot the same loads in my P07 and P09 and the P09 recoil is more noticeable to me.  It shouldn't be as the P09 is heavier/longer/fills the hand better for getting a good solid grip, etc.

The P-09 has the longer barrel, and thus the higher muzzle velocity and muzzle energy, and thus the higher recoil energy.  ;) 

Additionally, that heavier slide will mitigate some of the recoil energy differently than the lighter slide -- I won't guess exactly how different it feels -- but FOR SURE the heavier slide feels different when it gets as far rearward as it can get and slams into its backstop.  AND the heavier slide feels different when it slams all the way back forward.

There are a lot of variables in play in "felt" recoil.  ;)





Offline tdogg

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Re: Good Article on Controlling Recoil
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2018, 11:48:07 AM »



Recoil is energy.  You feel recoil.  Pressure is force.  You don't feel pressure. 

I assure you that you feel pressure but you don't feel the pressure in this situation because it is exerted on the barrel.

I don't like the simplification that the escaping gas velocity is the same because it's not. 

It's the duration of the felt recoil that I notice more.   A low gas volume charge (from a fast powder) will have a shorter duration recoil pulse.   It could actually have a higher force but only last a fraction of the time.

I can't stand shooting my wife's 7mm08.  It hits like a hammer hard with the full power hunting loads.   It's a short hard hit.   My 7mm mag no doubt recoils with more energy but it is more of a push than a hammer hit. The duration is way longer.

It's harder to notice in a pistol but you can feel it comparing a slow powder to a fast powder or a light bullet going fast to a heavy bullet moving slower.

Cheers,
Toby

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Offline IDescribe

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Re: Good Article on Controlling Recoil
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2018, 04:13:08 PM »
A low gas volume charge (from a fast powder) will have a shorter duration recoil pulse.   It could actually have a higher force but only last a fraction of the time.

The recoil energy is delivered throughout and corresponds to the duration the bullet is in the barrel, not the duration of the burn.

Offline Moken

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Re: Good Article on Controlling Recoil
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2018, 05:20:31 PM »
"for every action.................

Offline tdogg

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Re: Good Article on Controlling Recoil
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2018, 02:45:16 PM »
A low gas volume charge (from a fast powder) will have a shorter duration recoil pulse.   It could actually have a higher force but only last a fraction of the time.

The recoil energy is delivered throughout and corresponds to the duration the bullet is in the barrel, not the duration of the burn.

Maybe, wouldn't the initial recoil force would only last as long as the bullet is accelerating?  It gets fuzzy as the bullet interacts with the barrel until it exits (which is only slowing down the bullet).  Then you have the escaping gas thrust force once the bullet exits the barrel.

I don't know I haven't put much thought/research into it.

Cheers,
Toby

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: Good Article on Controlling Recoil
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2018, 04:39:24 PM »
I would think (never did any tests.....) that how long a bullet's speed increased would be affected by several things.

1) barrel length
2) bullet weight
3) how much surface contact there is between the bullet and the lands of the rifling
4) how long the powder burns (or how long the pressure builds vs. when peak pressure is reached and begins to drop off - the bullet may still be accelerating but the rate of acceleration may decrease??? - doesn't mean the bullet is slowing down, it's just not increasing speed at the same rate it was)
5) how well the bullet seals in the gas pressure
6) what the max gas pressure is (function of many of the above)

And I probably missed some....

Even after the bullet leaves the barrel the gun is still recoiling.  It's just so much heavier a combination of the gun weight and the way it's supported affect how much/how long it recoils.  I know the bullet is gone before it stops recoiling.  If not, I'd be shooting way over top of the target every time I squeeze the trigger on that 4" barreled .44 magnum and most of my rifles.

We're talking about the effects of powder type/amount of recoil but bullet weight/type make a difference, too.

Does the size of the bore (and many times the size of the bolt or breechface??) make a difference in recoil?  A .223 has a much smaller surface area for the gas pressure to act against vs. a .308/.30-06, for example.  Like a 9MM and a .40 S&W.  Not many folks complain about the recoil of the 9MM but a lot of people don't like the recoil of a .40 S&W.

Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline MadDuner

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Re: Good Article on Controlling Recoil
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2018, 07:06:04 PM »
Darn interesting reading guys!

Thanks for sharing this info.

This also helps explain why my misguided experiments didn't work the way I thought they would.

 

anything