The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: daved20319 on November 21, 2018, 01:40:36 AM
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Loaded up my first handloads for my 97 BD, and was able to get to the range today. In my usual style, rather than starting easy with a jacketed bullet, I went with coated cast bullets from Missouri Bullet Company. Ordered 3 different bullets, a round nose and a SWC, both 200 gr., as well as a 225 gr. truncated cone. Only worked up loads for the TC and SWC so far, both using Bullseye powder, new Starline LPP brass, and CCI primers. Oddly enough, the SWC's shot like crap, at least with the OAL and powder I was using. Didn't take the chrony along so I don't know the velocity, but they felt snappy, and might simply be going too fast. None of the groups were very good, but the slower ones were the best of a bad bunch. All shooting was done at 40 feet, BTW (don't ask), bench rested.
The 225's were a different story. Best 5 shot group was just over 1.5", worst was around 2.5". I started off with some AE 230 gr. FMJ as warm-up and as a control, one 5 shot group was just under 3", the other was just over 4". Same as above on my hand loads, Bullseye powder starting at 4.1 gr. and increasing in .2 gr. increments. Sweet spot was at 4.7 gr., tightest group, was pretty much dead on POA, and soft shooting as well. Of course, it helps shooting the 97, it's a big, heavy pistol that really soaks up the recoil.
For those of you that might be thinking, so what, that's not so great, bear in mind, this is only the second time out with this pistol, and the first pistol hand loads I've done in over 40 years. Plus, I only got back into firearms a couple of years ago, and serious about handguns just this year. So I figure I'm entitled to crow at least a little :).
Will be loading up another batch of those 225's, see if they continue to be good, and I'll be experimenting with the SWC some more too. Running out of shooting season in my neck of the woods, though, been waking up to temps in the mid-teens, and today's high only reached a little over 40. If anyone has suggestions on any improvements I could make, I'm all ears. Later.
Dave
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Bullseye is a good powder for .45 acp loads. I've used it and Unique for about 40 years now (I keep typing that and then thinking, really??? really? That long??) Anyway, my loads for those powders are 5.0 grains of Bullseye and 6.0 grains of Unique.
Your pistol my prefer and slightly different load but those powders will work. Some guy recommend Red Dot as well. I've got some Red Dot and I need to find something to use it up in. Might do some load development work with it and the same bullets you used. I've been loading those the last year or so but only recently started shooting them for more than just testing during load development. Got a new XD Tactical in .45 acp that is working great with those. I never can remember, exactly, what Missouri Bullet Co. calls that bullet style, so I just call it a flat nosed bullet.
We shot some yesterday. They do okay in my pistol, not sure about my nephew's XD Compact, he was next to me just banging away and I think he shot a lot of rounds and can't tell me which shot better in his pistols (LRN, FN coated or FMJ).
Now that you think you got the best results from 4.7 grains you need to load up some more and do some more testing (functionality and group size) to confirm that is the "sweet spot" for your pistol.
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I get better groups with Unique than Bullseye in any/all cartridges that are suitable (.38 Special, 9x19mm, .45 ACP, et al.). To be fair, this may be confirmation bias at this point.
Just to show that I am not totally biased, my favorite powder, IMR SR-4756, is not a stand-out in .45 ACP... :;
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Bullseye is a good powder for .45 acp loads. I've used it and Unique for about 40 years now (I keep typing that and then thinking, really??? really? That long??) Anyway, my loads for those powders are 5.0 grains of Bullseye and 6.0 grains of Unique.
Your pistol my prefer and slightly different load but those powders will work. Some guy recommend Red Dot as well.
Red Dot is a very versatile 12 ga. powder, so a lot of people work up handgun loads with it. If I could only have one powder, I would wonder who imposed this restriction upon me, and then I would choose between Red Dot and Unique... ;)
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Just to show that I am not totally biased, my favorite powder, IMR SR-4756, is not a stand-out in .45 ACP... :;
As long as we're talking obscure and obsolete.... IMR 7625 might be !
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Just to show that I am not totally biased, my favorite powder, IMR SR-4756, is not a stand-out in .45 ACP... :;
As long as we're talking obscure and obsolete.... IMR 7625 might be !
My good man, don't get me started on the virtues of IMR SR-7625! While it is not the apple of my eye, like it's more versatile sibling, I could wax eloquently for hours...
EDIT: In all seriousness, I will probably use up my last 2 lbs. in 16 ga. just to get rid of it.
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Now that you think you got the best results from 4.7 grains you need to load up some more and do some more testing (functionality and group size) to confirm that is the "sweet spot" for your pistol.
That's exactly what I plan to do, and I may even try a 0.1gr charge on either side, just to massage my OCD a little ;D.
So in addition to Bullseye, I also have some Win 231, VV 320, and Hodgdon's (sp?) CFE Pistol. I picked up a pound of each for testing in .45 ACP and 9 mm. Any load recommendations for any of the above, or suggestions for others I should try? I'm still trying to find some Alliant Sport Pistol, it's fairly new, but sounds interesting, especially as I'm using coated bullets in the .45. Later, and thanks.
Dave
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Mine seems to like any 200 gr. bullet over 4.2 to 4.8 gr. of 231 SWC bullets have to be seated short to feed 100% about .040" of the rim above the case mouth. Round nose lead, plated, or coated work the best for me.
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Love hearing this cz 97 talk.
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Oddly enough, the SWC's shot like crap, at least with the OAL and powder I was using. Didn't take the chrony along so I don't know the velocity, but they felt snappy, and might simply be going too fast. None of the groups were very good, but the slower ones were the best of a bad bunch.
And there you go. You're above where you want to shoot that bullet with that powder if best accuracy is your goal.
The 200gr SWC loaded with Alliant Bullseye is a classic, winning combination for 50-yard bullseye competitions. I believe you will find most people using the 200gr SWC for competition with Bullseye to load between 3.9gr and 4.2gr.
I do not have a wealth of experience loading for this caliber. Where I have stolen the pet loads of better men than I, I have experienced instant success in terms of accuracy, and where I've indulged my tinkerism and branched out, I have been disappointed.
Figure out what your goal is. If it's tightest groups possible, you may find them at or below the published load windows in .45ACP. Aliant data for the 200gr SWC is 4.2-4.6gr, which is higher than you want to be.
Load up some 200gr SWC at 3.8, 3.9, 4.0, and 4.1, then go out and see what happens.
I suspect the ladder you just shot was going in the wrong direction. ;)
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Can someone recommend a load specifically for the MBC 200 gr. SWC? I'm starting to think I might have screwed up. I'm using the Lyman Load Data book for auto pistol calibers, mostly because they have a fair number of loads for cast bullets. Problem is, they list 2 different 200 gr. SWC's, but with really different charge ranges. One calls for 3.5-5.6 gr. of Bullseye, while the one I picked, because the picture matches my bullet better, runs 4.9-6.0, quite a difference. How do you choose in a situation like this? They list a mold number and lead alloy, but I don't cast my own bullets, so that info is meaningless to me. Some guidance here would be much appreciated here. Later.
Dave
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I believe you got your guidance in the post directly above yours.
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Can someone recommend a load specifically for the MBC 200 gr. SWC?
Yes.
4.0gr of Bullseye :)
I still think you should build a ladder in .1gr increments from 3.8gr to 4.1gr so that you know for sure which charge weight is most accurate in your pistol, but if I were a gambler, I'd bet on 4.0.
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I believe you got your guidance in the post directly above yours.
Also, what Painter said. ;)
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Okay, I'll go there, but what about the seriously different loads listed in my Lyman manual? Obviously, not all 200 gr. SWC's are created the same, at least as far as Lyman is concerned. And since the only bullet dimension typically published is diameter, it's tough making comparisons. So again, how do you decide which numbers to use in a situation like this, especially for someone relatively new to reloading? Later, and thanks.
Dave
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Some guy recommend Red Dot as well. I've got some Red Dot and I need to find something to use it up in. Might do some load development work with it and the same bullets you used. I've been loading those the last year or so but only recently started shooting them for more than just testing during load development.
Guilty as charged! ;)
Red Dot is currently my favorite powder for the .45 ACP and will generally do anything that needs doing, in that Caliber. Green Dot comes in a close second.
I've also played with a lot of other powders up and down the burn rate chart, and came back to Red Dot.
Red Dot is a very versatile 12 ga. powder, so a lot of people work up handgun loads with it.
It seemed very handy to do so, as I was doing a lot of Trap, Skeet, and Sporting Clays at the time I started. I also use it with light Bullet loads (115 grains and down) in 9mm, and also like it for general use in the .38 Special.
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Okay, I'll go there, but what about the seriously different loads listed in my Lyman manual? Obviously, not all 200 gr. SWC's are created the same, at least as far as Lyman is concerned. And since the only bullet dimension typically published is diameter, it's tough making comparisons. So again, how do you decide which numbers to use in a situation like this, especially for someone relatively new to reloading?
First, when loading for a new caliber, for your first bullets, buy the exact bullets listed in some published load data, OR the exact bullets someone you trust has load data for, but the former is the better option. In other words, don't buy a bullet and then figure out what to do with it. Buy a bullet that you have already decided on a ladder for. That will save you a lot of headaches.
When I bought my 97B-E, I bought 170 and 185 and 200 coated lead SWC, 185 and 200 swaged bare lead SWC, 185gr bare lead BNWC, coated 250gr RN, and 185gr JHP. Then I sat there looking at all of it, thinking "What am I going to do with all of these?" ;)
In MY case, every single one of those SWC were clones of the H&G#68 SWC, which is going to be the most common SWC to see in load data, so for all of those, it didn't matter TOO much. ALSO, because I already knew I would be loading at the bottom or beneath published data for precision, overpressure was never a concern. With the Button Nose Wadcutter, I just started down in the same range as the already underpressure SWCs and wasn't worried. For the JHP, that is a very popular bullet among NRA 50 Yard bullseye shooters, so no shortage of data there, and while we don't want to take data from Joe Blow off the internet, when you can find shooter after shooter after shooter doing the same thing with the same powder and bullet, and the same results, you're not going to blow up your gun, in particular if you start low, work up with a chrono, and compare to existing load data to monitor for max velocity.
For you, you have working data for that 225. You're good there. For the SWC, what do you want to do with it? Wanna shoot groups? Tune it around 4.0gr and don't worry about what the Lyman data says. You're underpressure. You're safe.
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Okay, thank you. One last question and I'll quit beating this horse ::). At what point should I start worrying about TOO low a charge, especially with a low volume powder like Bullseye? Or is the floor below where the action won't cycle, so becoming a non-issue, because who wants a single shot semi-auto anyway ???? Later.
Dave
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There are very few powders that become dangerous when under loaded. I believe H 110 is one of the few, but that powder isn't in question here.
So, like you say, the floor is where the load won't cycle the gun, or push the bullet out of the barrel.
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Okay, thank you. One last question and I'll quit beating this horse ::). At what point should I start worrying about TOO low a charge, especially with a low volume powder like Bullseye? Or is the floor below where the action won't cycle, so becoming a non-issue, because who wants a single shot semi-auto anyway ???? Later.
Dave
In a general sense, you worry about it when it happens. You don't load a couple of hundred bullets until you know the load works. If you have to use an impact puller to break down a dozen leftover from a ladder, no big deal. And while no, you don't want a single shot semi-auto, if your lightest string or two on a ladder is too light to cycle the slide, you could shoot semi-auto anyway, just to get them in the books, and who knows, if they're great shooters, maybe you would want to buy a lighter recoil spring to have that load as an option in the future.
At the end of the day, though, a 185gr or 200gr bullet doing 750-800 is going to cycle that slide so long as CZ didn't drop a super stiff spring in there.
I mentioned 170gr SWC earlier. I just checked and they were 175gr. I have records of those loaded with N310 which is even faster and requires less powder than Bullseye, and those cycled 100% at an average velocity of 750.
In fact, all my SWC tested at 50 yards have done best around 750 in terms of accuracy, which is pretty common.
However you look at it, you're fine at 3.9,4.0, and if you're not, you need a lighter spring for target.
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There are very few powders that become dangerous when under loaded. I believe H 110 is one of the few, but that powder isn't in question here.
I did some reading on the undercharged kaboom a few years ago, and I found almost NO reports of it actually happening, just lots of people saying it does, and some references to Hodgdon acknowledging it can happen with H110. In the couple of incidents I read about, it was long, straight-walled rifle cartridges where the gun had been turned muzzle down before firing, allowing the powder to collect in the front.
It's been a while, and I don't remember all the details, but I came away from it thinking it was a non-issue with pistol cartridges, internet lore that I would revisit when I get around to buy that 444 Marlin.
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There are very few powders that become dangerous when under loaded. I believe H 110 is one of the few, but that powder isn't in question here.
I did some reading on the undercharged kaboom a few years ago, and I found almost NO reports of it actually happening, just lots of people saying it does, and some references to Hodgdon acknowledging it can happen with H110. In the couple of incidents I read about, it was long, straight-walled rifle cartridges where the gun had been turned muzzle down before firing, allowing the powder to collect in the front.
It's been a while, and I don't remember all the details, but I came away from it thinking it was a non-issue with pistol cartridges, internet lore that I would revisit when I get around to buy that 444 Marlin.
I use it in my M1 Carbine. I'm not skeert. ;)
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There are very few powders that become dangerous when under loaded. I believe H 110 is one of the few, but that powder isn't in question here.
I did some reading on the undercharged kaboom a few years ago, and I found almost NO reports of it actually happening, just lots of people saying it does, and some references to Hodgdon acknowledging it can happen with H110. In the couple of incidents I read about, it was long, straight-walled rifle cartridges where the gun had been turned muzzle down before firing, allowing the powder to collect in the front.
It's been a while, and I don't remember all the details, but I came away from it thinking it was a non-issue with pistol cartridges, internet lore that I would revisit when I get around to buy that 444 Marlin.
Trust me, unless you're a glutton for punishment, you DON'T want to buy a .444. That was the first rifle I ever bought, and it pretty much ruined rifles for me for the next 4 decades. Reloading on an old RCBS JR press was no picnic, either ::).
Thanks for the info on the "undercharged kabooms", like you said, Internet lore that just won't die, that's what prompted the question in the first place. And yes, my goal with this particular pistol is primarily target shooting, so small groups are what I'm after. Which is why I loaded a SWC in the first place, and why I was surprised that it shot so poorly, while the TC shot so well. Will be putting together a much lighter ladder, or rather, ladders, as I think I'll also try one with 231. Again, thanks for all the help, guys, and will report back when I can. Hope everyone enjoyed their Thanksgiving, and stuffed themselves into oblivion, I know we did ;D. Later.
Dave
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Trust me, unless you're a glutton for punishment, you DON'T want to buy a .444. That was the first rifle I ever bought, and it pretty much ruined rifles for me for the next 4 decades. Reloading on an old RCBS JR press was no picnic, either ::).
I've wanted a 444 Marlin since I was 13 year old kid reading Mack Bolan pulp novels. :) A year or two ago, I started thinking about it, and reading. What you described regarding punishment is what I was reading. It seemed the 450 Marlin was the same round, more or less, and available in rifles that brutalized your shoulder a bit less, and I started thinking the 450 was a better option, BUT then I lost the romantic angle with the 444, and the desire subsided completely. I think about it now and then, but realistically, it's not going to happen.
Will be putting together a much lighter ladder, or rather, ladders, as I think I'll also try one with 231.
You're in luck. David Milam, the brains and guts behind Cajun Gunworks, the builder of the custom 97B-E, is a bullseye guy, and his pet load for his 97 is not only a 200gr SWC with 231, it's a Missouri Bullet Company 200gr SWC with 231:
Missouri Bullet 200 H&G SWC -- .240" OAL -- .469 crimp -- 4.8gr W231
By the way, that 1.240 OAL is what I arrived at with the HG68 200gr SWC for my 97, as well. Try it if you aren't already there.
Crimp is important with lead bullets and taper crimped pistol cartridges. And by important, I mean it's important not to overdo it. A lot of people make the mistake of overcrimping, thinking that it will help secure the bullet. The opposite is true. Crimping past flush (also known as a good crimp ;) ) reduces neck tension below the case mouth, and it is neck tension that holds bullet in place. You don't ever want to crimp past flush. I'd try the .469 that David lists above. That's what I use myself. Forgive me if you know all that already, but I think you said you came from rifle, and lots of rifle guys (and revolver guys) are used to roll crimping into cannelures, and they come to straight wall pistol cases thinking crimping past flush is a good thing for those calibers, as well, but it ain't. ;)
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Busted! It was the Executioner novels that convinced me I just had to have a .444 :-[. Guess I should be happy I could never afford a .460 Weatherby :o!
Pretty sure I'm not overcrimping. I have Redding dies for .45 ACP, the 3 die set with seater/crimper, but wasn't liking the results just putting together some dummy rounds, so brought everything to a screeching halt until I could get a Lee FCD in hand. Much nicer results, even if it means an extra step in the process. Will check my diameter, though, so thanks for the spec. Later.
Dave
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so brought everything to a screeching halt until I could get a Lee FCD in hand.
:(
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so brought everything to a screeching halt until I could get a Lee FCD in hand.
:(
What ID is trying to say, is the FCD is not the choice of many here because of the possibility of it resizing bullets if not adjusted correctly.
Mr. A uses one, and likes it. Others do, also. Most of us prefer the Lee taper crimp die.
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Sorry, my bad, it's the taper crimp die that I have. So does that turn that frown upside down, IDescribe ;D?
Dave
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At what point should I start worrying about TOO low a charge, especially with a low volume powder like Bullseye? Or is the floor below where the action won't cycle, so becoming a non-issue, because who wants a single shot semi-auto anyway ????
Dave -
Load data is collected in a test barrel, which is basically a huge hunk of steel bolted to a table. It is a single shot test gun, designed specially for gathering chamber pressure data.
Therefore, don't be surprised if the lower loads do not operate your gun's action. This is one reason to keep your initial test loads at a low quantity. Nothing worse that needing to shoot 200 rounds that need to be cycled by hand.
Basically, in an auto pistol, you'll never need to concern yourself with what loads are too low.
;)
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Sorry, my bad, it's the taper crimp die that I have. So does that turn that frown upside down, IDescribe ;D?
Hahaha. Yes, it does. ;D
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What ID is trying to say...
When I saw this post following my post, the first thing I thought was What happened to my other post?
Then after responding, looking at another website, and closing a bunch of browser windows, I spotted the following in a browser, unposted:
Not sure if you know, but the Lee FCD is not a standard taper crimp die. It full length resizes the cartridge AFTER the bullet is seated, which can resize a lead or coated lead bullet inside the case. This for sure can cause problems with 9mm, where the cartridge is not truly straight-walled, but slightly tapered. I am not 100% sure about .45, which is straight-walled. One way or another, it does more than taper crimp, and if you squeeze a cartridge after a lead bullet is inside, you can change the sizing of the lead, which can reduce accuracy.
I believe there is a way to use an FCD as JUST a taper crimp die without the full length resizing option, but I have never owned one, and don't understand how to set them up. Perhaps 1SOW might advise.
I think I fell asleep. ;)
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Overall, my biggest problem with .45 ACP has been accidentally over-expanding the mouth of the case prior to seating the bullet. I'm talking about a general tendency over 30+ years, not anything specific to a particular case/bullet combination. Actually, I've had more problems with Remington .45 cases, come to think about it.
I believe that the Lee FCD die is meant to perfect a FMJ load that is developed. For example, it is very useful to post-size a FMJ 9mm cartridge for feeding purposes, because 9mm is supposed to be tapered. If the Lee FCD is altering your effective lead load, then you shouldn't be using it. In all honesty, I have used the Lee FCD with lead bullets, and I have had very mixed results. It will tend to mess with the driving band (heel) of a lead 9mm bullet in most instances, but it is a good tool with lead bullets for straight cases like .38 Special and .45 ACP.
The Lee expanding die tends to over-expand when using the Lee Auto Disk effectively, at least in my opinion. I suspect that the Lee FCD may be a "solution" to that problem. I have had good results with the Lee equipment overall, but I have also had some major issues with certain cartridges and components. For example, the Auto Disk system will not work with Nobel-Vectan ball powders like SP-8, because the spheres are so small that they bind the parts. You need to use a conventional measure with these powders.
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Overall, my biggest problem with .45 ACP has been accidentally over-expanding the mouth of the case prior to seating the bullet. I'm talking about a general tendency over 30+ years, not anything specific to a particular case/bullet combination. Actually, I've had more problems with Remington .45 cases, come to think about it.
That's why I use a Lyman M-Die, which is a stepped Case Mouth Expander, and use a Lee Universal Charging Die to activate my Lee Auto-Disks, on my Dillon XL650.
Perfect Case to Bullet Fit every time, Jacketed, Plated, or Cast, and somewhat tolerant of thinner Brass. Strangely, but not surprisingly, Remington Brass used to be the thicker
brand of brass, but no longer is. Guess they like making it cheaper now days.
Yes, the Lee Auto Disk System can be finicky with certain powders, but I've been very happy with it, so far.