Good start with MBC 225 gr. coated TC .45 ACP

[jwc007]

Some guy recommend Red Dot as well.  I've got some Red Dot and I need to find something to use it up in.  Might do some load development work with it and the same bullets you used.  I've been loading those the last year or so but only recently started shooting them for more than just testing during load development. 

Guilty as charged! 

Red Dot is currently my favorite powder for the .45 ACP and will generally do anything that needs doing, in that Caliber.  Green Dot comes in a close second.
I've also played with a lot of other powders up and down the burn rate chart, and came back to Red Dot.

Red Dot is a very versatile 12 ga. powder, so a lot of people work up handgun loads with it. 

It seemed very handy to do so, as I was doing a lot of Trap, Skeet, and Sporting Clays at the time I started.  I also use it with light Bullet loads (115 grains and down) in 9mm, and also like it for general use in the .38 Special.

[IDescribe]

Okay, I'll go there, but what about the seriously different loads listed in my Lyman manual?  Obviously, not all 200 gr. SWC's are created the same, at least as far as Lyman is concerned.  And since the only bullet dimension typically published is diameter, it's tough making comparisons.  So again, how do you decide which numbers to use in a situation like this, especially for someone relatively new to reloading?

First, when loading for a new caliber, for your first bullets, buy the exact bullets listed in some published load data, OR the exact bullets someone you trust has load data for, but the former is the better option.  In other words, don't buy a bullet and then figure out what to do with it.  Buy a bullet that you have already decided on a ladder for.  That will save you a lot of headaches. 

When I bought my 97B-E, I bought 170 and 185 and 200 coated lead SWC, 185 and 200 swaged bare lead SWC, 185gr bare lead BNWC, coated 250gr RN, and 185gr JHP.  Then I sat there looking at all of it, thinking "What am I going to do with all of these?" 

In MY case, every single one of those SWC were clones of the H&G#68 SWC, which is going to be the most common SWC to see in load data, so for all of those, it didn't matter TOO much.  ALSO, because I already knew I would be loading at the bottom or beneath published data for precision, overpressure was never a concern.  With the Button Nose Wadcutter, I just started down in the same range as the already underpressure SWCs and wasn't worried.  For the JHP, that is a very popular bullet among NRA 50 Yard bullseye shooters, so no shortage of data there, and while we don't want to take data from Joe Blow off the internet, when you can find shooter after shooter after shooter doing the same thing with the same powder and bullet, and the same results, you're not going to blow up your gun, in particular if you start low, work up with a chrono, and compare to existing load data to monitor for max velocity.

For you, you have working data for that 225.  You're good there.  For the SWC, what do you want to do with it?  Wanna shoot groups?  Tune it around 4.0gr and don't worry about what the Lyman data says.  You're underpressure.  You're safe.




 

[daved20319]

Okay, thank you.  One last question and I'll quit beating this horse  .  At what point should I start worrying about TOO low a charge, especially with a low volume powder like Bullseye?  Or is the floor below where the action won't cycle, so becoming a non-issue, because who wants a single shot semi-auto anyway  ?  Later.

Dave

[painter]

There are very few powders that become dangerous when under loaded. I believe H 110 is one of the few, but that powder isn't in question here.

So, like you say, the floor is where the load won't cycle the gun, or push the bullet out of the barrel.

[IDescribe]

Okay, thank you.  One last question and I'll quit beating this horse  .  At what point should I start worrying about TOO low a charge, especially with a low volume powder like Bullseye?  Or is the floor below where the action won't cycle, so becoming a non-issue, because who wants a single shot semi-auto anyway  ?  Later.

Dave

In a general sense, you worry about it when it happens.  You don't load a couple of hundred bullets until you know the load works.  If you have to use an impact puller to break down a dozen leftover from a ladder, no big deal.  And while no, you don't want a single shot semi-auto, if your lightest string or two on a ladder is too light to cycle the slide, you could shoot semi-auto anyway, just to get them in the books, and who knows, if they're great shooters, maybe you would want to buy a lighter recoil spring to have that load as an option in the future.

At the end of the day, though, a 185gr or 200gr bullet doing 750-800 is going to cycle that slide so long as CZ didn't drop a super stiff spring in there.

I mentioned 170gr SWC earlier.  I just checked and they were 175gr.  I have records of those loaded with N310 which is even faster and requires less powder than Bullseye, and those cycled 100% at an average velocity of 750.

In fact, all my SWC tested at 50 yards have done best around 750 in terms of accuracy, which is pretty common.

However you look at it, you're fine at 3.9,4.0, and if you're not, you need a lighter spring for target.

[IDescribe]

There are very few powders that become dangerous when under loaded. I believe H 110 is one of the few, but that powder isn't in question here.

I did some reading on the undercharged kaboom a few years ago, and I found almost NO reports of it actually happening, just lots of people saying it does, and some references to Hodgdon acknowledging it can happen with H110.  In the couple of incidents I read about, it was long, straight-walled rifle cartridges where the gun had been turned muzzle down before firing, allowing the powder to collect in the front.

It's been a while, and I don't remember all the details, but I came away from it thinking it was a non-issue with pistol cartridges, internet lore that I would revisit when I get around to buy that 444 Marlin.

[painter]

There are very few powders that become dangerous when under loaded. I believe H 110 is one of the few, but that powder isn't in question here.

I did some reading on the undercharged kaboom a few years ago, and I found almost NO reports of it actually happening, just lots of people saying it does, and some references to Hodgdon acknowledging it can happen with H110.  In the couple of incidents I read about, it was long, straight-walled rifle cartridges where the gun had been turned muzzle down before firing, allowing the powder to collect in the front.

It's been a while, and I don't remember all the details, but I came away from it thinking it was a non-issue with pistol cartridges, internet lore that I would revisit when I get around to buy that 444 Marlin.

I use it in my M1 Carbine. I'm not skeert.

[daved20319]

There are very few powders that become dangerous when under loaded. I believe H 110 is one of the few, but that powder isn't in question here.

I did some reading on the undercharged kaboom a few years ago, and I found almost NO reports of it actually happening, just lots of people saying it does, and some references to Hodgdon acknowledging it can happen with H110.  In the couple of incidents I read about, it was long, straight-walled rifle cartridges where the gun had been turned muzzle down before firing, allowing the powder to collect in the front.

It's been a while, and I don't remember all the details, but I came away from it thinking it was a non-issue with pistol cartridges, internet lore that I would revisit when I get around to buy that 444 Marlin.

Trust me, unless you're a glutton for punishment, you DON'T want to buy a .444.  That was the first rifle I ever bought, and it pretty much ruined rifles for me for the next 4 decades.  Reloading on an old RCBS JR press was no picnic, either  .

Thanks for the info on the "undercharged kabooms", like you said, Internet lore that just won't die, that's what prompted the question in the first place.  And yes, my goal with this particular pistol is primarily target shooting, so small groups are what I'm after.  Which is why I loaded a SWC in the first place, and why I was surprised that it shot so poorly, while the TC shot so well.  Will be putting together a much lighter ladder, or rather, ladders, as I think I'll also try one with 231.  Again, thanks for all the help, guys, and will report back when I can.  Hope everyone enjoyed their Thanksgiving, and stuffed themselves into oblivion, I know we did  .  Later.

Dave

[IDescribe]

Trust me, unless you're a glutton for punishment, you DON'T want to buy a .444.  That was the first rifle I ever bought, and it pretty much ruined rifles for me for the next 4 decades.  Reloading on an old RCBS JR press was no picnic, either  .

I've wanted a 444 Marlin since I was 13 year old kid reading Mack Bolan pulp novels.    A year or two ago, I started thinking about it, and reading.  What you described regarding punishment is what I was reading.  It seemed the 450 Marlin was the same round, more or less, and available in rifles that brutalized your shoulder a bit less, and I started thinking the 450 was a better option, BUT then I lost the romantic angle with the 444, and the desire subsided completely.  I think about it now and then, but realistically, it's not going to happen.   

Will be putting together a much lighter ladder, or rather, ladders, as I think I'll also try one with 231. 

You're in luck.  David Milam, the brains and guts behind Cajun Gunworks, the builder of the custom 97B-E, is a bullseye guy, and his pet load for his 97 is not only a 200gr SWC with 231, it's a Missouri Bullet Company 200gr SWC with 231:

Missouri Bullet 200 H&G SWC -- .240" OAL -- .469 crimp -- 4.8gr W231

By the way, that 1.240 OAL is what I arrived at with the HG68 200gr SWC for my 97, as well.  Try it if you aren't already there.

Crimp is important with lead bullets and taper crimped pistol cartridges.  And by important, I mean it's important not to overdo it.  A lot of people make the mistake of overcrimping, thinking that it will help secure the bullet.  The opposite is true.  Crimping past flush (also known as a good crimp   ) reduces neck tension below the case mouth, and it is neck tension that holds bullet in place.  You don't ever want to crimp past flush.  I'd try the .469 that David lists above.  That's what I use myself.  Forgive me if you know all that already, but I think you said you came from rifle, and lots of rifle guys (and revolver guys) are used to roll crimping into cannelures, and they come to straight wall pistol cases thinking crimping past flush is a good thing for those calibers, as well, but it ain't.   

[daved20319]

Busted!  It was the Executioner novels that convinced me I just had to have a .444  .  Guess I should be happy I could never afford a .460 Weatherby  !

Pretty sure I'm not overcrimping.  I have Redding dies for .45 ACP, the 3 die set with seater/crimper, but wasn't liking the results just putting together some dummy rounds, so brought everything to a screeching halt until I could get a Lee FCD in hand.  Much nicer results, even if it means an extra step in the process.  Will check my diameter, though, so thanks for the spec.  Later.

Dave

[IDescribe]

so brought everything to a screeching halt until I could get a Lee FCD in hand. 

[painter]

so brought everything to a screeching halt until I could get a Lee FCD in hand. 

What ID is trying to say, is the FCD is not the choice of many here because of the possibility of it resizing bullets if not adjusted correctly.

Mr. A uses one, and likes it. Others do, also. Most of us prefer the Lee taper crimp die.

[daved20319]

Sorry, my bad, it's the taper crimp die that I have.  So does that turn that frown upside down, IDescribe  ?

Dave

[Wobbly]

At what point should I start worrying about TOO low a charge, especially with a low volume powder like Bullseye?  Or is the floor below where the action won't cycle, so becoming a non-issue, because who wants a single shot semi-auto anyway  ?

Dave -
Load data is collected in a test barrel, which is basically a huge hunk of steel bolted to a table. It is a single shot test gun, designed specially for gathering chamber pressure data.

Therefore, don't be surprised if the lower loads do not operate your gun's action. This is one reason to keep your initial test loads at a low quantity. Nothing worse that needing to shoot 200 rounds that need to be cycled by hand.

Basically, in an auto pistol, you'll never need to concern yourself with what loads are too low.

 

[IDescribe]

Sorry, my bad, it's the taper crimp die that I have.  So does that turn that frown upside down, IDescribe  ?

Hahaha.  Yes, it does.