The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ Polymer Pistols: P10, P-07, P-09 => Topic started by: lagg300 on June 07, 2019, 03:44:16 PM
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I got my CZ P-10C milled for a Holosun 507C.
Are optic milling suppose to be this loose? There's enough gap between the optic and slide that I can move it back and forth. I shot it and the screws they provided backed out only after around 20 rounds even after I blue loctited it.
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How long did you wait after applying loctite?
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Sounds like you installed it using the wrong screws. My 407c came with 2 different depth of screw. I'd use the other ones
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How long did you wait to shoot it after applying the loctite?
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Waited a whole week because I didn?t have ammo at the time.
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It sounds like someone did a horrible job or gave you the wrong hardware
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1) LocTite needs to be absolutely free of all grease and oil in order to work (setup). If you use silicone lubes or wipes, that can be a bear to remove. Spray carb cleaner or use lacquer thinner on a swap for both the Male and Female fasteners is required. Lots of compressed air is suggested.
2) LocTite also needs the presence of metal ions to activate. So it won't work if there's any paint on the female thread, or you're trying to use black coated screws. Obviously, nylon and other non-metal fasteners are out.
3) There is a blue thread locker from China available at cheaper hardware stores that doesn't work worth a toot. LocTite owns Permatex. It's worth your effort to get the REAL thing. So auto stores might have it labeled as Permatex, while commercial suppliers call it LocTite.
Hope this helps.
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and don't forget to shake your blue loctite before applying (it will separate)
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1) LocTite needs to be absolutely free of all grease and oil in order to work (setup). If you use silicone lubes or wipes, that can be a bear to remove. Spray carb cleaner or use lacquer thinner on a swap for both the Male and Female fasteners is required. Lots of compressed air is suggested.
2) LocTite also needs the presence of metal ions to activate. So it won't work if there's any paint on the female thread, or you're trying to use black coated screws. Obviously, nylon and other non-metal fasteners are out.
3) There is a blue thread locker from China available at cheaper hardware stores that doesn't work worth a toot. LocTite owns Permatex. It's worth your effort to get the REAL thing. So auto stores might have it labeled as Permatex, while commercial suppliers call it LocTite.
Hope this helps.
I used brake cleaner to clean the threads so I hope that works? And this is the LocTite 242 blue from Home Depot, I'm pretty sure its the real thing.
Also another question; Is it normal to be able to move the optic so freely without any screws mounted? I had the impression that optic millings had to be a pretty tight fit. The one I have is far from it.
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Depends on who milled it. I have a P10C(RMR) milled by Jager Werks, and a 75(Venom)milled by Primary Machine. Both are tightly fitted.
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Yup sight should fit snuggly to the slide even without the screws.
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I have a Vortex Viper on my P09, milled by Primary Machine. You can't fit a hair between the optic on the slide.
https://primarymachine.com/
The place that did your milling did they have your optic in hand when milling ?? Some machine shops only use a universal generic program for Milling. What's the name of the Machine Shop?
[Mods corrected the vendor name, Added link]
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I would like to add that you really shouldn't need loctite as long as you're using high quality screws of the correct length and can torque to proper spec. I use a screwdriver that I can set the foot pounds to, set it to 15# and don't use loctite when I mount optics, if you insist on using thread locker than go with purple.
I don't know when the whole loctite is super necessary thing became a thing but as to my experience with it I've got over 25k rounds experience with different pistols and optic combos. My vortex viper mounted on a ppq was installed with purple loctite and went over 7k, never lost zero and I used the optic to work the slide I don't know how many times and the last time I shot it before I removed it was hitting 8 in steel at 100 yards no problem
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IF the optic ?dovetail? is milled correctly, the screws are only needed to hold it down into the milled area. Mine fits very tight. So snug that it holds zero if I have to remove the optic for any reason. The screws alone are not designed to hold the optic in place. Typically the machinist will mill lugs or studs or perhaps they are called recoil posts into the slide. Some I?ve seen mill a post where the screws go. Some mill the dovetail tight to fit the individual optic. Most optics have holes cast into them (possibly machined) that fit into a mount or properly milled slide. This keeps the recoiling slide from loosening or shearing the screws.
The first picture shows recoil studs milled in place. The slot that the optic fits in is also very tight.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190608/e6b63c61c5aacecb0edd5e298de92abb.jpg)
This shows recoil lugs milled where the screw holes are.
There are other ways to mill an optic dovetail that guards against recoil. Each of the awesome CZ vendors on this forum has their way of preventing the optic from coming loose. It should fit tight to prevent loosening.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190608/96a2d3c8997c8c3b9e902c8c86cacf4b.jpg)
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The other potential is if the holes were not drilled the same depth. I had this issue with my p09, the company that did the work was very gracious and fixed it for free. But try taking your optic off, and thread in the screws to see if that is the issue. This is what it looked like when mine was screwed up
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190609/bebdb3b73d3a0a8eff37e2b3a9b34401.jpg)
[Mods resized photo]
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Lagg300, who did the Milling on your slide so we all know know where not to go?
To have a gap that big that you're optic is moving around, that's just wrong.
Please tell us who it is.
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Lagg300, who did the Milling on your slide so we all know know where not to go?
To have a gap that big that you're optic is moving around, that's just wrong.
Please tell us who it is.
It was done by NCengravers.
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Lagg300, who did the Milling on your slide so we all know know where not to go?
To have a gap that big that you're optic is moving around, that's just wrong.
Please tell us who it is.
It was done by NCengravers.
Any way you could post a picture of their milling work with the optic?
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http://ncengravers.com/
looks to me like they do some pretty fancy work.
If your optic is sliding around oh, I would contact them and let them know find out what's going on.
Unless you only paid for a generic cut.
Did you send them your optic along with your slide when they did the Milling?
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Mark doesn't require you send the optic with the slide. If he's the one who did the work I would call him. I literally have a 50 thread long email communicating with him about slide work so the man will message you back especially if he thinks there was an issue with his work. I would call him and have him troubleshoot it with you over the phone.
I don't have any affiliations with Mark just had work done by him that I was happy with, although I don't believe he milled in optic mounting lugs but my optic hasn't come loose.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190611/fb6eb8b361999000e51afa6bb7deed0a.jpg)
[Mods resized photo]
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Lagg300, who did the Milling on your slide so we all know know where not to go?
To have a gap that big that you're optic is moving around, that's just wrong.
Please tell us who it is.
It was done by NCengravers.
Now this is the strangest thing ever.
I was just over on the S&W forum, asking about having my S&W 4006 TSW milled for an optic, the same people were suggested to me.
Coincidence???
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I'll have the actual pictures of the milling uploaded later. This is the video I took of the optic being loose while in the milled pocket. I can move it back and forth rear and forward pretty easily.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5V37TXg_Pg&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5V37TXg_Pg&feature=youtu.be)
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Have you tried both lengths of screws that came with the optic? I installed my 407c in a riser mount and when I switched it over to my glock mos with the same screws there was a lot of wobble. I used the other shorter screws that were included in the box and it hasn't moved or lost zero or anything since
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Lagg300, who did the Milling on your slide so we all know know where not to go?
To have a gap that big that you're optic is moving around, that's just wrong.
Please tell us who it is.
I am curious too as I am starting to think the same.
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he named The Machine Shop a couple of posts up ^^^^^^ and a video that was very revealing of their work.
I also emailed that particular machine shop and told them I was thinking of having my po7 milled for an optic, I asked them if they needed me to ship the optic to them and the man said no because they have just about all of the Optics on the market there to measure.
If that's the case then I definitely don't want them to do work for me. Especially when they're leaving that much of a gap for the optic to slide around
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I also emailed that particular machine shop and told them I was thinking of having my po7 milled for an optic, I asked them if they needed me to ship the optic to them and the man said no because they have just about all of the Optics on the market there to measure.
A knowledgeable shop doesn?t have to measure an optic. Some optic manufacturers publish the footprint dimensions on their website, others will email the print when requested. It?s easy to make a program with a print. Then the machinist can just try the optic in the cut and adjust as needed.
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in my eyes you either do Precision work as a machinist or you don't.
If it were my machine shop, Work better be done perfectly . If not then it doesn't get my name on it and doesn't go out the door. and somebody's a** is getting chewed.
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A knowledgeable shop doesn?t have to measure an optic. Some optic manufacturers publish the footprint dimensions on their website, others will email the print when requested. It?s easy to make a program with a print. Then the machinist can just try the optic in the cut and adjust as needed.
I disagree.
Think about what you are saying. Are you paying to have your slide milled, or for the machinist to do research and wait for drawings to arrive ? What you're suggesting is a great way to have your slide languish in some shop for 3 months.
As a machinist, I want to work from and make my own measurements of THE ACTUAL PART. Not some drawing of the part, where I have to worry about...
1) Are there multiple drawing revisions out there ?
2) Have I got the correct drawing revision for the part I'm supposed to be fitting ?
3) Are there dimensions missing from the supplied drawing which I need to do my work ?
4) Is the drawing depicting the optic, in which case I need to mirror image the fastener positions, or is it a drawing of the actual cut to be made ?
Machinist already have plenty to worry about: machine time, machine availability, having the correct cutters and taps on hand, correct feeds and speeds for the material being cut, and a dozen other problems simply to handle your job once it enters their shop. They haven't got time to go get on the computer and make phone calls !
Not unless you want to pay machinist wages for that research time. ;D
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A knowledgeable shop doesn?t have to measure an optic. Some optic manufacturers publish the footprint dimensions on their website, others will email the print when requested. It?s easy to make a program with a print. Then the machinist can just try the optic in the cut and adjust as needed.
I disagree.
Think about what you are saying. Are you paying to have your slide milled, or for the machinist to do research and wait for drawings to arrive ? What you're suggesting is a great way to have your slide languish in some shop for 3 months.
As a machinist, I want to work from and make my own measurements of THE ACTUAL PART. Not some drawing of the part, where I have to worry about...
1) Are there multiple drawing revisions out there ?
2) Have I got the correct drawing revision for the part I'm supposed to be fitting ?
3) Are there dimensions missing from the supplied drawing which I need to do my work ?
4) Is the drawing depicting the optic, in which case I need to mirror image the fastener positions, or is it a drawing of the actual cut to be made ?
Machinist already have plenty to worry about: machine time, machine availability, having the correct cutters and taps on hand, correct feeds and speeds for the material being cut, and a dozen other problems simply to handle your job once it enters their shop. They haven't got time to go get on the computer and make phone calls !
Not unless you want to pay machinist wages for that research time. ;D
👍👍👍👍👍👍
I totally agree with this!!!!
Measure the item in your hand, then measure it again and then make the cut.
And then measure and re-measure.
When I slide was milled oh, you can't fit a hair between the milling and the optic.
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The RMR was not originally designed for pistol slides, it was to be mounted on rifles to supplement magnified optics like the ACOG. Those two little nubs aren't ideal for absorbing the recoil forces of a reciprocating slide, compared to the front and rear of the optic body. It's why I don't like adapter plates on handgun slides, since most rely on just the nubs and screws to secure the optic. And on many slides, the nubs aren't even full circles due to the way slides narrow or curve at the top.
This is the drawing I used when I milled my SP-01 slide for an RMR and optic plate. For reference, Cerakote is .001" thick, and the tolerance for the length of the RMR is +-.005" and the 3" radius tolerance is .010". Add in tooling wear and machine tolerance, it's possible to have a sloppy fit. I measured my plate and milled it to match the optic, then cut the slide pocket 0.001 oversized. After Cerakote, the fit was tight enough that I needed to lightly tap the plate and optic in. I don't know what Holosun's tolerances are, so just because it fits an RMR footprint, doesn't mean the pockets will be identical.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Gh3jZKnFhQw/XQD08gjlH8I/AAAAAAAADTc/hqrrY70LWl4TxOxCCFUUpFapjRiSC_AGwCLcBGAs/s1600/RMR%2Bpocket.jpg)
While I prefer sending the optic with the slide, a "universal" cut can be tight depending on how the machinist accounts for tolerances. Here's my "universal" cut done on a P10c by JagerWerks. I measured my RMR's length (1.7805") and added it to the comments when I ordered. I don't know if he did anything different, but here's what I got back.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BZKtVaOl8yl/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet (https://www.instagram.com/p/BZKtVaOl8yl/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet)
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Do as you please.
The manufacturer PDF print is downloaded instantly. If an email request is needed, it?s answered within a day. If you have a CMM, it still takes time. I?ll work from the optic manufacturer print EVERY TIME as opposed to hand measuring. Risking tolerance stack, measuring errors, etc. CAM software can flip, mirror or anything else you can imagine.
Again. Do as you please. I?ll work from a manufacturer print first. Plan ahead. Download them ahead of time. Not that many.
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Yes please tell us, I am about to do this work on my cz p10c and want to avoid problems.
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Did u get this corrected? I'm about to send in my baby cz p10c and I dont want it to mauled!!!
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Did u get this corrected? I'm about to send in my baby cz p10c and I dont want it to mauled!!!
IMHO, send it to primary machines it'll be perfect.
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Did u get this corrected? I'm about to send in my baby cz p10c and I dont want it to mauled!!!
IMHO, send it to primary machines it'll be perfect.
I agree,I have had my 07 slide back a little over a week from PM and already have close to 500 rds downrange, all is perfect! I was just a hair less than a month in getting returned to me but that's OK it is done and it's done right the 1st time I feel.
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IMHO, send it to primary machines it'll be perfect.
You have several good choices, but the owner of Primary Machine is on here all the time. You can PM him at user name Raining_Brass.
For me, I'd rather support the shops and vendors that support my favorite web site. Which is one reason why you aren't being bombarded with Google ads when you come here.
Just saying. ;)