The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: armoredman on October 11, 2019, 01:17:57 AM
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Or do they? Accurate actually publishes +P handgun data in their manual. How here actually loads home rolled to hotter velocities, and why? How well has it worked for you?
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I have thought about it but i have not done it. It is not something that i am in a hurry for. Even for factory ammo i am not a +P fan. I am interested to hear other forum members input on the subject.
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Many of my manuals list +p loadings for various powders and bullet combos. I load my practice 9mm ammo to simulate the recoil of my defensive ammo but it's not at +p levels. I see no good reason to beat my 9mm's,.45's,0r 38spl's up with ammo like that. I have .357 and .44 magnums if I want or need more power.
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I've never seen a need to load to those levels. I don't buy +P factory ammo either. I really don't see the need for it.
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The only time I've considered the +P loadings is for the 9MM 124 grain (future) loads for that M&P 2.0 5".
The best shooting loads so far (even after the Apex trigger kit and Apex fitted barrel - I fitted it, not Apex) are the Winchester 124 grain NATO loads which Winchester doesn't call +P. Winchester states the muzzle velocity is up around 1200 fps. The only 1200 fps 124 grain loads I see in the manuals are +P loads. Bought some AA#7 based on data on the Accurate Arms reloading manual on line. Just haven't done anything with it. Bought some Hornady 124 grain hollow points a few days ago to start some testing.
A few years back I was trying out some TAC in .223 and .30-06 (never got around to trying it in .308). I worked up .223 loads and found the most accurate load in my 16" (mid length gas system) and 20" (rifle length gas system). Great, good accuracy, metered great/consistent, easy to load, etc. Winter time eventually came around and I found that (on a below freezing range day) the ammo would not function in the 20" AR15. People recommended going "hotter" to get it to function but I walked away from it (for the .223). I load for function and groups, not for velocity. Accurate Arms has a 5.56X45 reloading section for hotter loads than .223 Remington, but I can do just fine with BLC2, H335 and IMR4198. The TAC will work find in the .30-06 for sure, maybe even the .308.
My personal feeling about +P loads is if you feel you need more velocity to make "your" cartridge do it's job maybe you should check out a different caliber.
Remember all those complaints?
Oh, a .40 is too snappy. So you want to jack up a 9MM and make it recoil more?
Oh, a .308 kicks too hard. So you want to jack up your .223 and wear it out quicker?
Oh, a .38 special won't do the job. So you "hot load" a .38 vs. just going to a .357 magnum?
Sorry for the mini-rant, but folks, seriously. More powder = more pressure = more wear/tear and closer to the "oh darn my rifle/pistol just broke" line. Just like adding a turbo charger to a car engine equals more cylinder pressure, higher combustion/exhaust temperatures and decreased oil life (maybe engine life, too, but the mass of sensors and computer control at least helps reduce the chance of catastrophic failure in car engines vs. hot loaded fire arms). If you don't believe turbo/super chargers are tougher on engines explain why the oil change on my V6 Coupe is 7,500 miles and on the turbo 4 cylinder it's 5,800 miles. Someone on a Ford forum mentioned that the oil change frequency on the new twin turbo V6's in Ford trucks/Expeditions is 3,000 miles? I've been running 6,000 miles on oil changes for the last 20 or more years with synthetic oil on all my V6s, V8s, 4s. No issues. But none are "abused" by a turbo either.
But, some people like "living close to the edge."
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I roll my own with Viht 3N37. I don't know if they are +P given the powder is that slow/stable but if you compare velocities achieved against the Accurate +P data, they are on par with those comparable max velocities. So +P is relative :). I push mainly Speer Gold Dots for my HD loads in both 9mm and 40S&W. Plenty accurate and not too harsh to shoot regularly (albeit spendy).
Cheers,
Toby
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+P is a pressure designation, it is related to velocity but not in a linear way. For example VV 3N38 will push a 147 Hornady XTP to 1200 FPS (per VV max load) with out exceeding normal pressures, however N340 only gets you to 1015 without exceeding max. load. So to get the same velocity with N340 you would be well into +P pressures or beyond.
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Socal,
That was my point, not well written.
Where the rubber hits the road is how fast your pushing the bullet. Pick a powder that will push it safely at the velocity you desire. No good reason to push a faster powder into +p territory to achieve a velocity you could obtain more safely using a slower powder.
Cheers,
Toby
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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I roll my own with Viht 3N37. I push mainly Speer Gold Dots for my HD loads in both 9mm and 40S&W. Plenty accurate and not too harsh to shoot regularly (albeit spendy).
Toby -
I had to start rolling my own SD loads for use on wild animals. [There's been a rash of small, rabid fox attacks in my area this year.] I've been very impressed with the accuracy and expansion of the Berry Mfg knock off, the Hybrid Hollow Point.
https://www.berrysmfg.com/product/bp-9mm-356-124gr-hhp
Berry sells these in the 250 pack, which brings the price down considerably from Gold Dots.
Sorry for the "bunny trail". Now back to the main discussion.
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The 9mm loads that I make for my CZ Czechmate are not published anywhere in any reloading manual. They are beyond the level of +P by a margin of a couple hundred feet per second. My "hot" 115gr load will go over the chrono at 1520FPS. I can shoot these loads out of non-comped steel frame guns but they are violent. Out of the Czechmate they are soft and flat shooting loads.
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I have loaded to +P in 45 in my 1911. Trained with that for a few hundred rounds then re sprung and shot down to power factor.
It was a fun learning tool at the time.
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I use to but for an UZI and my Blackhawk revolver with the 9mm cylinder. Fun times. My thought now days is if I need more power (velocity or bullet weight) then maybe what I need is a different caliber like 40, 357 Sig, or 10mm.
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I have loaded to published max but never over,. I like my hands and face to much to take a chance.
Some may do so but this is a area where much care must be taken!
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I have pushed some 10MM loads close to high book, but never to or over book. Too hard on the gun and whats the point anyway? If I want really hot rounds I buy Underwood or Buffalo Bore, which I don't shoot often, again, too hard on the gun. Buffalo Bore has never given me trouble, but I've had Underwood bulge cases (not in a Glock).
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I've used +P data to see if a max load and +0.1 grains would be a problem when reloading on a progressive press. Other than that, I see no valid reason for me to need +P ammo or loads.
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Just remember though that most time the “hottest” loads are NOT the most accurate. Couple that with potentially dangerous pressure levels and I’m of the group that thinks maybe you’d be better off just running a hotter caliber to start with. Instead of a hot rod nine, how about just moving up to a 10mm, instead of a .38 special, just get a .357. I shoot a lot of .44 Mag and .357 Mag. In both cases, I typically download the rounds to warm to hot .38 Spcial or .44 Special. A worthwhile challenge is to find a full house Magnum load you like, then play around with milder loads till you find one with same POI at 25 yards (typically a good bit lighter slug). That way you have a nice target round that you can play with while getting more and more skilled with a given weapon. I saw a guy convert a nice S &W revolver to scrap metal by shooting overly hot reloads, and I’ve no desire to experience that situation personally😳
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Another overlooked IMHO is powder selection.
From VV web site gives a max load of N-320 @ 4.1 grs. yielding 1070 FPS.
while a min load of 3N37 @ 4.7 grs. yielding 1014 FPS.
Less peak pressure but almost the same velocity, and at max load with 3N37 you get 1148.
Still not as good as just going to a larger caliber but if you want to get flatter shooting rounds go to a slower powder.
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9mm Major Power Factor - competitive shooters that have comped guns, need gas to run the comp, have to make 165kPF for major(USPSA). I have only loaded to minor PF, for limited. Looking to upgrade components and start loading for open major soon(ish). May need to have barrel chamber reamed to seat bullet longer and stuff more powder in to work the comp. I'm looking at a 6" barrel and have it threaded for a comp - hoping the longer barrel will make vel and run the comp with lower pressure. May need a slower burning powder considering the longer barrel.
From what I gather (as a moderate loader, completely new to 9Maj.), most 9major shooters load (or start) with HS-6 or similar, and some of the published loads are above major PF. I don't know how the +P, +P+ and major/minor PF correlate to each other, I know its related, but not a direct correlation. Anyone can shed light on that please chime in.
I also have a Ruger PCC but I don't know if they run PF classis in PCC, if so, running same bullet in that will be another benefit I would guess.
Semi-related rifle rounds:
Long distance - hotter rounds have less drop at distance which can be a determining factor. May have better LD grouping in terms of ED and SD (which don't matter as much in pistol shooting)
For me, the LD rounds if < 750yds I use my rainbow round, which is a very mild round, but is cheap and accurate, best groups, saves barrel etc. I don't mind running the scope up a bit and putting more hold for windage. If > 750 yds I switch to hot loads of a lighter bullet with different powder compressed into the case. Not as good at 100 yds, but the distance targets are easier.