The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: NMShooter on November 03, 2019, 11:28:42 PM
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Hello I've been a reloader for a number of years, but when it comes to loading for pistols or revolvers, I've never really tried to get maximum accuracy out of my loads, mostly concerned with velocity and penetration. (10MM Auto, 45 ACP, 460 S&W) If I could consistently hit a paper plate at 50 yards I was ok with the load. I started shooting 9MM recently and really enjoy it. Having the brass land next to me instead of 50 feet away and a lot lower cost is an added bonus. So I ordered a CZ Tactical Sport 9MM. Now I need some coaching.
Instead of asking for your favorite loads, I'd really rather get information on loading techniques for accuracy. I go to the nth degree with rifle brass because it is so critical but other than using the same manufacturer what else is critical in relation to the brass? Uniforming primer pockets necessary? How much to bell and how much to crimp?
Plated bullets appear to be fine according to what I've read. What type i.e. round point, flat point, hollow point do you prefer and why? What grain bullets are generally best at 50 yards and under? I don't want to shoot lead bullets. I shoot hard cast for my woods and hunting loads with my 10s and 460, but would rather avoid them.
OAL. Makes a difference with rifle loads, how much difference does it make with pistol loads? I usually load to suggested OAL for pistols unless I have to adjust to accommodate to the magazine.
Primers can make a big difference with rifle loads. Does it matter with a pistol load at short range distances?
I don't care about velocity or power factor, I don't compete. Maybe I'll get in the old guy division in a couple of years when I retire, but for now I just want to shoot the most accurate loads I can make. Thanks in advance for your replies.
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Let me start with my findings on the 9mm loading for Bullseye. I am sure soon other more experienced reloaders will chew this science down for you.
Brass should be the same head-stamp and generation (number of loadings) good for 4-6 loads, after that moved to loading practice rounds.
Bullet is the biggest factor. JHP is more accurate because of uniform base and long bearing surface, but for CZ need to be loaded short, to avoid touching the leade/rifling. DO plunk test for any bullet you try. The most accurate are Hornady XTP/HAP. Second best are Precision Delta and Zero JHP.
9mm needs to go fast for stabilization. 124(125)gn around 1040fps, 115gn- 1100fps. Small pistol primers, there is no measurable difference in brands as long as they ignite reliable in your gun. Primer pocket needs to be clean, tumbling takes care of that, but other brass prep ls not necessary. Consistent powder measure is a must. Less than 0.1gn extreme spread for many powders. The most accurate loads usually found in the second half of recommended loading range, but not the max.
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I'll restate what he said - OAL is important for safety, not so much accuracy in pistol.
PLEASE do the plunk test to verify your OAL!
I'll agree with most other things said. Some find that a coated lead bulllet is more accurate than the JHP - you'll need to test that in your gun with various types - and speeds - of powder. For me, I've found that some powders are great for one bullet, but open up the grouping with another (of the same weight bullet).
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Consistency in components and process. You won't be making consistent ammo without consistent components and consistent process/methods.
Then there's your pistol. Only you know if it shoots well enough to suit you. Before you go blaming the pistol, make sure it's not the ammo or you. If it's the pistol you can modify it to make it more consistent, too.
Your pistol will tell you what it "likes", both from a reliability aspect and for small groups.
Some pistols just shoot better with a bullet that another pistol won't shoot well - so try different bullets and powder to find what works in your pistol.
The cartridges have to fit in the magazine, feed from the magazine into the chamber and fire - safely. People have already mentioned how to insure your cartridges will fit/fire in your pistol's chamber safely.
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Hello I've been a reloader for a number of years, but when it comes to loading for pistols or revolvers, I've never really tried to get maximum accuracy out of my loads... If I could consistently hit a paper plate at 50 yards I was ok with the load. I started shooting 9MM recently and really enjoy it.
Whoa! 150 ft is a really long way for a pistol. You're going to need highly consistent loads made with highly consistent components. I'd start by contacting the man himself.... member Joe L. Joe has some killer distance videos.
Instead of asking for your favorite loads, I'd really rather get information on loading techniques for accuracy.
Use the same brand (and batch) of brass. If your collection of 9mm brass isn't going to give you the qualities you're wanting, then buy new StarLine brass online. https://www.starlinebrass.com/
Plated bullets appear to be fine according to what I've read.
There are a few plated bullets that do good enough at 25 feet, but for longer distances you'll need first quality jacketed. Typically JHP.
OAL makes a difference with rifle loads, how much difference does it make with pistol loads? I usually load to suggested OAL for pistols unless I have to adjust to accommodate to the magazine.
There is no set OAL for auto pistols. The barrel-to-bullet fit dictates the Max OAL. SAAMI says the Min OAL for 9x19 is 1.000", so your OAL could conceivably range anywhere within 0.160". The jump to the lands is probably in 25th place of importance behind so many other obvious factors. Read all the Stickies at the top of this Forum.
Primers can make a big difference with rifle loads. Does it matter with a pistol load at short range distances?
For short distances 'no', but my testing indicates that you need to use Federal primers if you want maximum consistency and really low SD numbers.
Choice of powders and bullet weight are going to be critical. Probably a slower powder for distance. You'll want a chrono for sure because you'll want your loads to have an SD number below 10.
Hope this helps. ;)
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I'm OCD about reloading. For 9mm, there are two types of reloading for me, plinking and target. This is what I concentrate on for target ammo.
Brass: 1. Trim brass to same length. Inside and outside champher. Uniforming primer pockets will help some,but a lot of work. You can decide if is worth it.
Bell case mouth just enough for a bullet to start in the case mouth. Taper crimp should be bullet dis + case mouth thickness x 2. Mine usually are around. 378.
PAL. I do the plunk test then make it 10 thousands shorter or to fit mag, whichever is shorter.
Primers can make a difference. A chronograph would help find out if you need a hotter primer. Some powders are harder to ignite than others.
Bullets, I like Sierra, Nosler and Speer in that order. You can try others to see if they work for you.
I almost forgot. Deburring flash hole. Helps some, but very little in return for more work. You must decide.
The last batch of 9mm I reloaded had an extreme spread of 4 fps. 1104 fps using 115gr bullet from a p07.
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Thank you all for the great information. Several suggestions/techniques are new to me. I'm excited to get started. I checked a recent load I had crono'd for one of my 10MMs - SD was 14. I'm really interested to see how much I can improve upon that. I'll check back to this post in case more responses come in and I'll report back on my results. Thanks again!
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SD for velocity doesn't always mean your groups are smaller. I recall a few threads over the years where people were very surprised their bullet to bullet velocity was as variable as it was based on the small groups they were shooting with that load.
Measuring velocity is okay, but also monitor the group size and keep a record/average for a particular load.
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SD for velocity doesn't always mean your groups are smaller. [snip] Measuring velocity is okay, but also monitor the group size and keep a record/average for a particular load.
I agree. You can never argue with good results. By using SD, I was searching for metrics the OP could use to tell if his techniques were improving or not. There's a difference between paying and paying off !
Another necessary definition might be to more clearly nail down the distance. The OP said 50 yds, but then seems to suggest distances might vary. I'm not sure that rounds built for long distance are by definition always going to be accurate at much shorter distances. I'm also not sure that the expense and trouble of reaching 50 yds and beyond is always required for accurate loads at, say for instance, 7-10 yds.
;)
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The most accurate powder I have used was VV N320. I used it when developing my accuracy load using federal primers, same head stamp brass (federal, blazer or Remington) with 124 Gr Precision Delta JHP.
I didn’t shoot this powder in USPSA since it was hard to come by at the time so I settled with Winchester 231. Then Alliant sport pistol powder came out and I switched over again. I’m still a happy camper.
I tried bullseye shooting but standing there hurts my back so bad. Besides, it’s boring and the competitors are mostly older gentlemen and old enough to be my dad lol j/k Joe L..
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I tried some bullseye shooting - had to as part of the NRA World shooting championship.
Wow - that isn't easy - totally different technique, muscles, etc. A guy in my squad had almost all in the black (25 yards slow fire). I had a few on the paper. (Using supplied guns, not your own). I asked him how often he shot bullseye - once a week for 6 years. WOW!
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I tried some bullseye shooting - had to as part of the NRA World shooting championship.
Wow - that isn't easy - totally different technique, muscles, etc. A guy in my squad had almost all in the black (25 yards slow fire). I had a few on the paper. (Using supplied guns, not your own). I asked him how often he shot bullseye - once a week for 6 years. WOW!
Yup. Wow! Is the same word that came out of my mouth watching them shoot. I don’t have the discipline and willpower not to move any part of my body while trying to shoot those Xs.
Same thing goes with the .22LR bullseye shooters I talked to after the match every first Sunday of the month on the range I go to practice for USPSA action shooting. I think the youngest shooter I met was about 65-67 years old and the oldest was 86 years old. He was still having fun too and still good at it.
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NMShooter--These guys all know about reloading, I don't. I do know what I would use as a standard for comparison to your hand loads, however. I've been using Atlanta Arms 115 gr JHP ammo for 6 years with excellent results in a variety of CZ 9mm pistols. Sub 2" groups at 50 yards from a wrist rest with a best of nearly 1". Sub 4" at 100 yards, sub 7" at 200 yards. The ammo is repeatable. I don't know what bullet they use, what powder, or what primers, but the combination works great. I'm sure there are other sources that are also good, but I quit looking years ago.
Here is a link to some 100-200 yard videos if you are interested.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7GbOFIiTV0xt-yUxqYvFX6tek_pEmLes (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7GbOFIiTV0xt-yUxqYvFX6tek_pEmLes)
I haven't learned to reload because I don't need another hobby. I retired this year, so I should be able to shoot more often, then the expense will become a factor and I might have to try it! :) :)
Good luck with your efforts, and these guys can help you as needed. All I can do is cheer you on.
Joe
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I am really watching this thread.....
I had no idea that a different primer or brass would have an effect on accuracy. I’ve been playing with different projectiles and powders, but must not shoot well enough to tell the difference.
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This is the Joe L video that simply slays me...
video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5K2Ol_H6BE&list=PL7GbOFIiTV0xt-yUxqYvFX6tek_pEmLes&index=22)
Target with a 'dinky' sub-$400 P-09.
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I am really watching this thread.....
I had no idea that a different primer or brass would have an effect on accuracy. I’ve been playing with different projectiles and powders, but must not shoot well enough to tell the difference.
All components contribute, I don't do enough of this type shooting to definitely state in what order.
What most people miss is that the shape and color of the target itself is a huge contributor, and probably falls in the top 3. The human eye needs a highly contrasting dot/circle to focus on. That circle size needs to increase as the distance increases. 2" works great at 15yds, but Joe L seems to be using 8-10" at 100 yds.
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I know a guy that develops his loads using a randsom rest and a real expensive cronograph. You can really tell the difference between minute adjustments, like amount of taper crimp, primers ect. He has everything setup for 50 yds. He has a portable reloading setup, so his testing usually last most of the day.
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I have had best luck with a circular or square non-red aim point 2x the dot size. I use black if the background isn't too dark, but have used yellow or blue against a forest background also. So, for a Holosun or Ultradot 2 moa red dot, I use 2-3" at 50 yards, 4-6" at 100, and 8-12" at 200. The other thing I do is not worry about hitting a specific target in the center. At 50 yards, the 9mm groups will be slightly below the aim point, like an inch or two, and at 100 yards, they will be 8" or so, and at 200 maybe 44". Wind becomes a factor at 100 and 200. I place the aim point above a clean full size bullseye target, take a few sighting shots, see where the group is, cover the group with a fresh target, wherever it needs to go, then go shoot a few more groups. If the wind changes, I'm off. I never touch the sight zero, which is typically zeroed for bullseye at 25 yards, single hand. Going to a two handed grip from a wrist rest will move the group to one side slightly compared to the single hand zero.
And yes, it is possible to shoot a good group at 200 yards with a subcompact CZ P10S. I've done it. Once, on a perfect, windless day at 6000 feet above sea level. Gotta try that again in a few weeks.
Joe
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My immediate goal is to get my Scorpion Carbine to shoot 1moa or better at 100yds - suppressed.
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Thank you all for the great information. Several suggestions/techniques are new to me. I'm excited to get started. I checked a recent load I had crono'd for one of my 10MMs - SD was 14. I'm really interested to see how much I can improve upon that. I'll check back to this post in case more responses come in and I'll report back on my results. Thanks again!
Consistency is a good thing but, as others pointed out, not always directly relatable to accuracy. Not sure if it applies to pistols (but don't see why not) but there a thing called the "ladder test". I haven't done it myself but when working up loads you'll find a point where the POI (at a specific distance) will be almost the same for a range of powder charges - this has the potential for the greatest accuracy by reducing the POI/charge sensitivity.
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Haha, that's really impressive shooting. I'd be impressed with myself if I just got them all on the paper (or some of them). Practice practice. I started reloading around 15 years ago when the 325 Win short mag first came out. Premium ammo for that caliber, at the time, was around 80 dollars a box of 20. "Honey, I can save a lot of money by reloading" is probably the stupidest thing I've ever said. (Well, in the top twenty anyway) It snowballed from there. I've concentrated on rifle mostly, but have come to the point where I like shooting pistols more. Lots of reasons, but the mechanics of pistol shooting have been so challenging for me. Of course rifle is also really challenging. Any of the shooting disciplines are enough to occupy a lifetime.
For rifle, I start with the best brass I can afford, sort it by weight, trim to length, uniform primer pockets, turn case necks, use a bushing die so I have consistent neck tension, fire form, anneal every other firing, etc etc. Now I'm going to turn my attention to making the best pistol ammo I possibly can, and at the same time, try to learn to be a decent shot with a hand gun.
I can see I found the right forum to garner information to help do this. Up until now I've never chamfered pistol cases for instance. Your replies have been excellent. Thank you!
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This is the Joe L video that simply slays me...
video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5K2Ol_H6BE&list=PL7GbOFIiTV0xt-yUxqYvFX6tek_pEmLes&index=22)
Target with a 'dinky' sub-$400 P-09.
My son was with me that day, and got to watch me shoot that target. That was all pre-Sugru, too!! Look at how much trigger finger insertion I had without the grip and trigger modifications. Also, in 2014, this was somewhat of a fluke, I couldn't do this very often back then. Gun was always perfect, and still is. Shooter still needs work.
Joe
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So Joe L,
All your shooting is done with the reloaded Atlanta Arms 115 gr JHP. What info can you glean from that for us ? Does Atlanta Arms use all the same brass ? While the 115gr probably shoots flatter at distance, do you think that's superior to 124gr overall ?
Any other ideas ? Thanks.
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For a few years I compared the new AA ammo to the reloads and didn't see any difference. Then AA stopped selling the 115 JHP in a reload version, at least under the AA brand, so I started buying new, and shooting less. The reloads were mixed brass. I don't have any experience with 124. I tried 147 but concluded that I shot the 115 more consistently, probably due to the recoil difference, not sure. I definitely noted a difference in 115 FMJ and 115 JHP at 100-200 yards.
So, I'm lazy. I quit buying anything other than new AA 115 JHP for bullseye and long distance demos and Remington UMC 115 FMJ in buckets to train other folks and for plinking and non-critical drills. But even Rem UMC 115 seems to have become more consistent over the last couple of years.
When I shoot now, the last thing I want to do is test ammo. If I did, I would have to shoot the new ammo and follow it with a "control" test shooting the AA 115 JHP at the same time under the same conditions, to see if I was having a good day or a not-so-good day, before coming to any conclusions on the new ammo. If I was having an off day, I would have to repeat the test on a good day before reaching any conclusions. I just don't think there is any room for improvement in performance over the AA 115 JHP. Might be some less expensive ammo that does just as well, and my hope is that the reloaders can determine how to achieve that.
At my age, the variables I am willing to study and try to improve are trigger control, eyesight, grip shape, grip strength, and mental approach to shooting. CZ pistols take the gun off the variable list, AA ammo takes ammo off the list. Age and temperament add a lot to the list!
Speaking of temperament and age, I need to go shoot my .308 bolt rifle and AR-15 before Christmas, just to see if I still can. I have a video somewhere of a sub 4" group at 547 yards with a .308 Savage rifle from prone that is pretty good. Not sure I can do that again either. Best thing about a bolt action rifle is that 40 rounds is a long session!
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Thanks for that, Joe.
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Hi guys, I was able to shoot the CZ yesterday. Had limited success with some practice ammo I had loaded up previously. 115 grain Hornady XTPs, various headstamp, Rem primers, 6.2 grains of AA#7 1.100 OAL. Also had some Berry's 147 grain, various head stamp, Rem primers, 6.0 grain AA#7, 1.165 OAL. I was getting them all on a paper plate at 25 yards but groups were nothing to write home about.
After reading all of the suggestions in this post, I loaded a ladder using Starline brass minimum bell and crimp, CCI small pistol magnum primers (picked up at the store by mistake, didn't want magnum primers, but can't take them back so I figured I might as well use them). Saw no adverse effects. Used 147 grain Berry's round nose, Titegroup powder, load range 3.2-3.6 grains (Hogdon data). I didn't crono, it was rainy off and on. Shot 4, 11 round groups - 3.2 grains, 3.4 grains, 3.6 grains and 3.7 grains. Did the plunk test to determine OAL, ended up setting OAL at 1.175. I was up against the lands at 1.88". All of the groups were better than the practice ammo, with the 3.6 grain load coming in at 2.29" at 25 yards off a rest.
I have AA#7, Titegroup, Power Pistol, Blue Dot, Unique powders on hand, CCI and Rem primers. Starline brass. 147 grain Dots, 124 grain XTPs, Nosler 115 grain HP bullets. If any of you have any suggestions with any combinations of those components or something close, I'd sure like to read them. BTW, the TSO was awesome, not one hiccup, and far more accurate than I'm able to take advantage of. Thanks, John
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Hi guys, I was able to shoot the CZ yesterday. Had limited success with some practice ammo I had loaded up previously. 115 grain Hornady XTPs, various headstamp, Rem primers, 6.2 grains of AA#7 1.100 OAL. Also had some Berry's 147 grain, various head stamp, Rem primers, 6.0 grain AA#7, 1.165 OAL. I was getting them all on a paper plate at 25 yards but groups were nothing to write home about.
After reading all of the suggestions in this post, I loaded a ladder using Starline brass minimum bell and crimp, CCI small pistol magnum primers (picked up at the store by mistake, didn't want magnum primers, but can't take them back so I figured I might as well use them). Saw no adverse effects. Used 147 grain Berry's round nose, Titegroup powder, load range 3.2-3.6 grains (Hogdon data). I didn't crono, it was rainy off and on. Shot 4, 11 round groups - 3.2 grains, 3.4 grains, 3.6 grains and 3.7 grains. Did the plunk test to determine OAL, ended up setting OAL at 1.175. I was up against the lands at 1.88". All of the groups were better than the practice ammo, with the 3.6 grain load coming in at 2.29" at 25 yards off a rest.
I have AA#7, Titegroup, Power Pistol, Blue Dot, Unique powders on hand, CCI and Rem primers. Starline brass. 147 grain Dots, 124 grain XTPs, Nosler 115 grain HP bullets. If any of you have any suggestions with any combinations of those components or something close, I'd sure like to read them. BTW, the TSO was awesome, not one hiccup, and far more accurate than I'm able to take advantage of. Thanks, John
Thanks for the info and report!
I loaded almost the same thing and tested it over the weekend also.
147gr Berry’s RN, with 3.2 to 3.5 of TiteGroup in my batches, with OAL of 1.145 and Remington Small Pistol primers. This produced the best groups through my Scorpion at 100 yds from a bench, besting the factory ammo. It was still 2MOA, but shows great promise. I saw no difference in groups between 3.2 and 3.5gr. The next time out I will use all the same headstamp brass, and hope for less wind. I know I am right up to sonic speed through a 16” barrel, so most likely won’t load for faster.
I will however also load and test some more 147’s with Unique also.
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If you can with the 147 Gr bullets, load them shorter than your current OAL of 1.165”. My TSO and shadow 2 are more accurate at shorter OALs at 1.125” for PD JHP compared to 1.130-1.135 using either win 231, sport pistol or CFE pistol.
When I experimented with 147 Gr RMR RNFP bullets. I had to load them to 1.101”-1.104” using 3.45 Gr of Sport Pistol.
Here’s the chronograph data for the most accurate 5 shot group using the 147 Gr RNFP.
HI - 874
LO - 864
AVG - 867
ES - 10
SD - 4
PF - 126.44
OAL - 1.101-1.104"