The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZF KADET KLUB => Topic started by: PA451 on March 21, 2020, 08:54:07 PM
-
Hello,
Been shooting Kadets on steel-framed 75s for about 13 years now. I've never owned a P07/09. I'm curious, for those who have experience with both, how does the accuracy and reliability of the Kadet made for the P07/09 compare?
Thanks
-
I only have a P07 Kadet kit.
I only have a couple trips to the range before the great shut down of 2020.
I get a stoppage just about every magazine with blazer and cci SV.
Accuracy is about 4” at 15 yards rested. That will suffice for a self defense trainer but it is no match gun. Even includes stoppage drills at no additional cost as a training feature.
-
I have all three and I don't remember comparing them at the same time with the same ammo. The P-09 was very stiff and didn't behave well until it had 3-4 hundred rounds through it. The others were not picky at all.
It will be interesting to compare them as well as a SP-01 and S2 Kadet as well. Sounds like a nice project if it doesn't rain this weekend.
-
I don't have a P-07/09 Kadet but I've had a similar design for a Sig P-226. I do have a 75B Kadet.
Any .22 that does not have a barrel fixed to the sights is not going to be as accurate as one that does. The barrel to slide fit just has to be loose to allow the .22 conversion to cycle, and this looseness means the slide+sights are not returned to exactly the same position relative to the barrel as the previous shot. A 9mm slide can be set to very close tolerances and still cycle. In other words, the 75B Kadet design is hard to beat. I'm spoiled, so I never bought the aluminum/polymer conversion for the polymer guns. That said, there are folks here that have been happy with their P-09/07 .22 conversions. Maybe they will respond.
Joe
-
It is a little chilly here but I managed to get out to the range for a little comparison of the P-09 and P-07 Kadets VS the Kadet 2. I threw in a SP-01 and Shadow 2 Kadets for good measure.
Disclaimer, I don't shoot light pistols very well. I need to work on this more in the future.
The pistols that were used and the Kadet version along with the weight without magazines.
1) CZ 75 SA frame with Kadet 2 2 lbs 4 1/8 oz
2) CZ P-07 with P-07 Kadet 1 lb 2 3/8 oz
3) CZ P-09 with P-09 Kadet 1 lb 4 1/4 oz
4) CZ SP-01 Shadow with SP-01 Kadet 1 lb 15 3/8 oz
5) CZ Shadow 2 with Shadow 2 Kadet 2 lbs 3 1/2 oz
The ammunition used was Federal "Auto Match" 40 grain Solid. The distance was 10 yards, temp was 45 DegF. The steel framed pistols all have had a little trigger love but the P-09 and P-07 are stock triggers.
Hopefully your mileage is better than mine.
(https://i.imgur.com/Y7q55pDh.jpg)
-
I have had the P07 Kadet for about 2 years now and shot in some competitions with it.
The accuracy depends on what you are doing with it.
I don`t shoot 25m with it, or not often, more shorter distances. So on 7m to 10m you can easily fully shoot out the bullseye of a ISSF round target.
(https://i.ibb.co/HtVTKbp/WP-20171205-18-18-11-Pro.jpg)
This pic was taken after rapid fire from a distance of about 10m.
I had a target flying around somehwere here, where the center was only one big hole. Found it
(https://i.ibb.co/5v602wh/KK-scheibe.jpg)
Distance 7m to 10m
I love the P07 Kadet, it shoots very nice, pretty accurate and is not ammo picky at all.
I havn`t had any issues with different ammo types and brands. High Quality match ammo, bulk ammo, south african ammo, old ammo...dosn`t matter. The P07 Kadet eats what is served.
-
Timetofly and DanMore--Those look great! Perhaps my bad experience with the Sig P-226 conversion should be tempered a bunch by your good results with the CZ conversion! I fully expected the CZ version to be better, I just didn't know by how much.
Joe
-
Do the Kadets seem to shoot any better with copper-coated HVRN like Aguila, CCI Mini-Mag or Winchester CPHP? Accuracy and reliability?
I stopped using SV ammo on my 22 pistols due to FTF"s and cycling issues.
I'm especially interested in the P-07 Kadet for training purposes, but I do understand Joe's point that a fixed barrel with sights attached like my Ruger MKIV Target will undoubtedly be more accurate than a reciprocating slide/barrel/sight setup.
-
Timetofly and DanMore--Those look great! Perhaps my bad experience with the Sig P-226 conversion should be tempered a bunch by your good results with the CZ conversion! I fully expected the CZ version to be better, I just didn't know by how much.
Joe
I don`t have the conversion kit. I have the CZ P07 Kadet Pistol.
Conversion kits can be tricky and ammo picky, also the CZ ones. I don`t have any expirience with the P226 conversion kit, but I would think it`s pretty much the same.
My P07 Kadet runs flawlessly, no matter what ammo I give her.
Do the Kadets seem to shoot any better with copper-coated HVRN like Aguila, CCI Mini-Mag or Winchester CPHP? Accuracy and reliability?
I stopped using SV ammo on my 22 pistols due to FTF"s and cycling issues.
I'm especially interested in the P-07 Kadet for training purposes, but I do understand Joe's point that a fixed barrel with sights attached like my Ruger MKIV Target will undoubtedly be more accurate than a reciprocating slide/barrel/sight setup.
I don`t use HV Ammo in the P07 Kadet, since the wear and tear could be to high.
I only use SV ammo! Brand like CCI, Federal, American Eagle, Geco, Magtech, what ever I get my hands on cheap at my dealer.
I have noticed rather neagtive accuracy results when shooting HV ammo out of a .22 pistol.
A fixes barrel might be more accurate, but the P07 Kadet is better for training if you also have a 9mm P07, since the size (not the weight though) is like the 9mm P07. So holsters and gear will fit. Trigger is really sweet on my P07 Kadet. No work done on ít.
(https://i.ibb.co/3YNV4pd/WP-20171205-17-52-30-Pro.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/h8Hdj2M/CZ-P07-Kadet-Muzzleflame.jpg)
-
Dan,
Thanks for the info.
I have 3 nice 22 pistols: Buckmark Hunter 7-1/2", S&W Victory, and Ruger MKIV Target all with fixed barrels and red dot mounted atop the barrel. All three are very accurate setups. They work best for me using copper-coated HV. Not super-fast (40gr@1235-36gr@1280fps), but powerful enough to cycle the pistols with only a very very rare mis-feed.
I wish I could actually try the P-07 Kadet Kit somewhere. But I don't want to take a step backwards in terms of reliability and accuracy, so for now I think I'll stick with 9mm in my P-07 and SP-01 and just split my range time between 9mm and 22 using what I have. :-\
-
Vinny--consider this along with the posts from people who have the conversion/pistol. If the P-09/07 .22 pistols were a problem, there would be plenty of posts about it. We don't see hardly any gripes. That is a good sign, in my opinion.
Even my 75B Kadet is finicky in the winter. I have to run hotter ammo to get the gun to cycle well when the air temperature drops below 40F. When it gets down in the 'teens, my gun absolutely won't cycle with SV ammo. It may be that the P-09/07 version isn't any more troublesome than a standard 75B Kadet. Then, if the slide fit is pretty good, accuracy will be good also. Lots of if's, I know. Also keep in mind that the P-07 version with a shorter, probably lighter slide, should cycle easier than the slightly heavier (I am assuming) P-09 version.
I've almost talked myself in to trying a P-07 version just from reading the responses to your post.
Joe
-
Vinny--consider this along with the posts from people who have the conversion/pistol. If the P-09/07 .22 pistols were a problem, there would be plenty of posts about it. We don't see hardly any gripes. That is a good sign, in my opinion.
Even my 75B Kadet is finicky in the winter. I have to run hotter ammo to get the gun to cycle well when the air temperature drops below 40F. When it gets down in the 'teens, my gun absolutely won't cycle with SV ammo. It may be that the P-09/07 version isn't any more troublesome than a standard 75B Kadet. Then, if the slide fit is pretty good, accuracy will be good also. Lots of if's, I know. Also keep in mind that the P-07 version with a shorter, probably lighter slide, should cycle easier than the slightly heavier (I am assuming) P-09 version.
I've almost talked myself in to trying a P-07 version just from reading the responses to your post.
Joe
Thanks for your input Joe,
I know you've had considerable experience with the Kadets; your opinion counts a lot.
If you do try a P-07 Kadet adapter I'd love to hear your take. The savings between 9mm and 22 ammo wouldn't take long to pay for itself. O0
-
The thing is, you can`t compare a Ruger MK IV, a Buckmark, S&W Victory and other such types of .22s with a Pistol like a CZ P07/09 as Kadet (no matter if conversion kit or pistol version like my P07 Kadet.
Where the Ruger, Browning and S&W, aswell as my FN/Browning International II are more Bullseye competition pistols, at least mainly used for that here in Germany, the P07/09 Kadet´s are on the one side Plinking guns and then they are training guns.
They will never reach the accuracy the above mentioned have, what dosn`t mean the P07/09 Kadet are not accurate. The usecase is just a different one.
And that is the difference!
Here in Germany, when the Glock 44 was announced, the first remarks had been: "The G44 will not be very accurate!"
This is pointed into a comparisson to the olympic style bullsye shooting mainly practiced here in Germany.
Plinking dosn`t really exist here in Germany and .22s are seen as toys the grownups don`t need.
-
DanMore--That is a good way of explaining things, it is more about expectations. I wouldn't think a P-09/07 .22 would ever be a suitable bullseye match gun, but the 75B Kadet definitely is. I have the Ruger 22/45 but it is my backup gun. I am just more consistent with the little CZ. And I like to irritate the guys that shoot the more expensive pistols.
Joe
-
The thing is, you can`t compare a Ruger MK IV, a Buckmark, S&W Victory and other such types of .22s with a Pistol like a CZ P07/09 as Kadet (no matter if conversion kit or pistol version like my P07 Kadet.
Where the Ruger, Browning and S&W, aswell as my FN/Browning International II are more Bullseye competition pistols, at least mainly used for that here in Germany, the P07/09 Kadet´s are on the one side Plinking guns and then they are training guns.
They will never reach the accuracy the above mentioned have, what dosn`t mean the P07/09 Kadet are not accurate. The usecase is just a different one.
And that is the difference!
Here in Germany, when the Glock 44 was announced, the first remarks had been: "The G44 will not be very accurate!"
This is pointed into a comparisson to the olympic style bullsye shooting mainly practiced here in Germany.
Plinking dosn`t really exist here in Germany and .22s are seen as toys the grownups don`t need.
Dan, I appreciate your explanation. Plinking is fun; if you have a place to do it.
And to some degree, the Kadet can also serve as practice with your defensive platform. All at the reduced cost of 22 ammo vs 9mm. So, I get why it can be a good investment.
However, our range recently banned use of metal plinking targets, shooting trees, cans, etc. so I just sold a Ruger SR22 that was a good plinking pistol. :'(
I put 100 rounds through my Buckmark today with zero hiccups. Looking back in my log book I don't see a single failure of any kind in many many hundreds of rounds. I won't own a pistol that doesn't have that kind of reliability.
And for me; I'd rather practice my P-07 double taps with 9mm realism; so I guess I'm talking myself out of a Kadet for my P-07.
But, I do understand why people like 'em.
I guess if I'm going to consider a Kadet; as Joe suggests I should look toward the premium 75 Kadet II model for my 75-SP-01 Tactical, or I'd just be disappointed.
-
My 75 Kadet was reliable with quality sv ammo and mechanical accuracy was outstanding as JoeL mentions. The only reason I sold it was the inability to mill for a mrds.
-
I've had a Kadet Kit for years for my CZ 85 Combat, but I've never even seen one for a P07 (which I also own).
One of the earlier replies talked about the P07 version of the Kadet Kit as having a moving slide, and not a fixed barrel. The older Kadet Kit's slide (really the upper assembly, as there is no moving slide), the sights, and the barrel are a single unit in what looks like a slide\, and the frame is just the handle. I didn't see anyone correct that statement.
Is the Kadet Kit for the P07 a totally different design than the earlier Kadet Kits? Those versions have a fixed barrel, and the only part that actually moves is the bolt, which is in the rear of the slide. That design is innately more accurate that kits that don't have a fixed barrel.
I had a very nice stanless Ruger Mk II Government model with a long slab-sided barrel. It was nice and accurate, and a beautiful gun too look at, but my Kadet Kit was surprisingly just as accurate as the the longer-barreled Ruger, and I traded the Ruger for a nice Witness Sport Long Slide in .45. (That model was a precursor to the top-end Witness match-type guns.)
If the Kadet Kit for the P07 or P09 is similar in design to the older kit, it has the potential to be vary accurate. If the design is different, then...
I couldn't find a manual for the P07/'P09 kit on the CZ website.
-
Is the Kadet Kit for the P07 a totally different design than the earlier Kadet Kits? Those versions have a fixed barrel, and the only part that actually moves is the bolt, which is in the rear of the slide. That design is innately more accurate that kits that don't have a fixed barrel.
I had a very nice stanless Ruger Mk II Government model with a long slab-sided barrel. It was nice and accurate, and a beautiful gun too look at, but my Kadet Kit was surprisingly just as accurate as the the longer-barreled Ruger, and I traded the Ruger for a nice Witness Sport Long Slide in .45. (That model was a precursor to the top-end Witness match-type guns.)
If the Kadet Kit for the P07 or P09 is similar in design to the older kit, it has the potential to be vary accurate. If the design is different, then...
I couldn't find a manual for the P07/'P09 kit on the CZ website.
I attached a picture of a dis-assembled P-07 Kadet. It came with three recoil springs for a little fine tuning for different ammo.
(https://i.imgur.com/SbraQ26h.jpg)
-
Walt--it appears from the photos I've seen that the barrel stays put on the frame and the slide and sights cycle. Your concern is the same as mine--the accuracy is dependent on how loose they have to leave the lock up to get the slide to cycle reliably on the weak .22 ammo. I love the 75B Kadet design with the cycling bolt and rigid barrel to sight construction.
I don't think this is possible with a cycling sight .22 design. This was with a 75B all steel Kadet.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Firearms/Pistol-Range-8-21-16-Ruidoso/i-xtQnLpK/0/dce22ffe/M/IMG_0652-M.jpg)
Only perfect timed fire (25 yard standing single hand, 5 shots in 20 seconds, twice) target I've shot. I've shot 20-30 100 score targets but no 10x except this one. In practice, of course, never in a match. :) :)
Joe
-
I'm glad I didn't get a Kadet Kit for my P07, as I think I would have been disappointed with its performance.
I'm sure the kit for the P07 can be made to perform very well, but it would probably take a gunsmith (or home gunsmith) who understands the P07's lockup design, because...
- the barrel and slide are never locked together as can be the case with the standard Browning Locked Breech Short Recoil designs,
- and it's barrel is not fixed in it's relationship to the sights, as is common with many fixed barrel .22 handguns.
It probably would take metal being tweaked (added or removed) at the rear of the barrel assembly where it llocks up with the slide (depending on the gun it's being run in). That may be enough so that the barrel and sights consistently align. It might also need a "tuned" barrel bushing added at the front end.
With the Browning Locked Breech Short Recoil design, barrel movement upwards is very limited until after the bullet has left the barrel -- because the slide has moved a fraction of inch to the rear by the time the bullet has left the barrel, so the barrel and slide (and the sights) have a fixed relationship untll later, when the barrel starts to unlock. The Browning LBSR design lets the slide move to the rear before the barrel begins to tilt as it unlocks from the slide.
With the P07 Kadet Kit design, recoil force will push against the frame (and the shooter's hand) and that will begin to lift the barrel as soon as the bullet starts down the barrel. If the barrel is NOT tightly fit to the slide, there can be barrel movement before the bullet has left the barrel. If it's same with each shot, it won't matter. But will it be consistent? Properly fit, it might be.
I'm sure this design is much less expensive to build than the older 75B Kadet Kit design, and that may have been part of its design criteria. It is a much simpler design and theoretically more durable -- but durability hasn't seemed to be an issue with the earlier design.
If they had used this newer design with the 75B, I'd probably still be shooting my beautiful old MK II Stainless Government Model.
-
Question:
What ist the szenario for you using a system like a Kadet Pistol?
- Is it tight groups from 25m, single handed, like at the olympics? Neither the CZ75 Kadet, nor the P07/P09 Kadet would bring groups even close to the match pistols. The only one that would maybe a chance of getting even close would be the CZ75 Sport 3 in .22lr running a 6" syetem.
https://www.frankonia.de/p/pro-tuning/pistole-cz-75-sport-iii/135041?lastSelected=f_s_marke&f_s_kategorie=KK-Sportpistolen&navCategoryId=63349
- Is it to go out to the range and have some fun, maybe some small game hunting szenario?
Specially the P07 Kadet is a nice and compact pistol, that just works and delivers nice groups at shorter distances.
These systems are fun shooting systems, put on defensive pistol frames, so they are sweet for kids to learn dynamic shooting, in example.
I have a bullseye .22 in my gun safe. Adjustable trigger pull, adjustable pre travel, triggerstop, 6" barell.
That is the kind of .22 pistol you get, if you are looking for maximum accuracy.
-
While I don't expect a Kadet Kit to outperform a dedicated .22 target pistol, I found my older version of the Kadet Kit to be a very good performer, and just about all with whom I've talked with about their Kadet Kits said the same.
What I've seen from the responses here suggest that the Kadet Kit for the P07 or P09 do not come close to performing as well as the original kit design.
That design had a fixed barrel and sights and a slide that didn't slide -- the top, except for the bolt, was a fixed, single assembly. Lockup of barrel and sights was never an issue.
The newer design has a semi-fixed barrel that tilts and and a slide and sights that may not always return to exactly the same position without gunsmith enhancement.
That's two different design approaches, and based on the sample targets shown in this message chain and comments here, that two quite different types of accuracy
None of this means that the P07/P09 Kadet Kit can't be modified to perform very well -- it probably can. But it may not perform the same with each gun upon which it is mounted.
The new design may satisfy many shooters, but none of the newer Kadet Kits seem to perform as well as the older deign. (The photos of targets and comments here seem to confirm that assessment.) My older Kadet Kit is an exceptional performer.
I won't buy a Kadet Kit for my P07, as all it would is frustrate me. And I really like my P07, which shoots just about as well as my Sphinx SDP, and does it for roughly 1/e the purchase price.
-
It is a little chilly here but I managed to get out to the range for a little comparison of the P-09 and P-07 Kadets VS the Kadet 2. I threw in a SP-01 and Shadow 2 Kadets for good measure.
Disclaimer, I don't shoot light pistols very well. I need to work on this more in the future.
The pistols that were used and the Kadet version along with the weight without magazines.
1) CZ 75 SA frame with Kadet 2 2 lbs 4 1/8 oz
2) CZ P-07 with P-07 Kadet 1 lb 2 3/8 oz
3) CZ P-09 with P-09 Kadet 1 lb 4 1/4 oz
4) CZ SP-01 Shadow with SP-01 Kadet 1 lb 15 3/8 oz
5) CZ Shadow 2 with Shadow 2 Kadet 2 lbs 3 1/2 oz
The ammunition used was Federal "Auto Match" 40 grain Solid. The distance was 10 yards, temp was 45 DegF. The steel framed pistols all have had a little trigger love but the P-09 and P-07 are stock triggers.
Hopefully your mileage is better than mine.
(https://i.imgur.com/Y7q55pDh.jpg)
wow, that is some nice grouping with the conversion kits.
I'm looking for a CZ 22 for range shooting, we only have 25m and 50m ranges in our club. I can probably pick up a P07 or P09 as a full 22 pistol (i.e. not a kit), would you recommend them as a range pistol for learning on with 22 (rather than 9mm)?
-
I should point out that while I would love to be able to hit the bullseye with every .22, my main aim is to eventually be accurate with a 9mm over 25m, at the moment I'm all over the place and at 25m, I shoot 50 rounds a visit, and I'd say about 75% of my shots are within a 12" group. I'd like to get that down to 90% within a 6 inch grouping before moving to 9mm.
A lot of the club's members can do way better than this, so I've got a lot of practice to do before I get to where I want to be.
Once I get there on a 22 CZ, I'll sell it and move to a 9mm CZ
-
I'd say; buy the whole 9mm Pistol, with its matching KADET Kit
Practice with the KADET Kit until you've got that where you want it
Then switch to the 9mm Upper and go from there
This way you haven't spent time and Ammo and then have to re-learn a brand new Trigger feel / break / reset etc
Yes, the recoil will be different, but the Trigger will not be a part of you new learning curve
My B-SA and its mated KADET Kit
(https://i.imgur.com/jHB06va.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/sd70IxY.jpg)
Hard to tell them apart at first glance