The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: Rcher on April 23, 2020, 10:39:18 PM
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I'm excited to start my new hobby! Finally!
I did setup Lee Turret Classic Press today for 9mm 4 dies set.
I'm getting familiar with this press and reloading, so doing "dry" reloads now, NO POWDER, NO PRIMERS. Only brass and bullets.
I installed all 4 dies according to the included instructions (very poor, I'd say), selected two clean cases with identical dimensions (Blazer Brass and R.P.) and tried to load 124gr Berry's RNDS bullets.
I set up 1.15 OAL which is recommended for my loads, but I don't care now cause they are loaded without powder. I set up light crimp (as per instructions too).
Both dummy bullets fit pistol chamber and 9mm gauge ideally, what concerns me is a visible rim on the brass where bullet ends. (marked with red arrows).
Is it expected?
Blazer Brass
(https://o3iwqg.bn.files.1drv.com/y4mlxs82bLt1zIpQGs238pdKszPnXV1pQ4g8UesoLBimg2RT1L8ZIksri662bb52f6wtQUrOCQAXHgPkt3V8s1BLhRauEr3CX3libFoMuniwdVy7OOkjewECF90O5k2HlBX37Wg-AP2Z-K8e5iicrp9yQFIjVLjVLZBtd2fJkpDX4f2ojLfefE_KPEkn0xo4WilAWtVI5L-DGIvRutDrzUV0Q?width=660&height=617&cropmode=none)
R. P. (Remington)
(https://phiwqg.bn.files.1drv.com/y4mHBbJhNdkhmHtenBrFsB28m3VXK15WFzYXV2_ZUYEPc84AxFN4Rw6OLMdmXCEyr_uA80HW803cDTczjER9UfHvccl3Puec7Np8QyKfpSdnK61QtahLBP9-wqmgeBqQjUQmdTTPe5U9uNPwLNASZExNTKFII-_rx35kIlMJcdS4Y_AzWlCQWELgKR5Fco7-EmJZhcizYnWspqQn4N-RrJHFA?width=660&height=535&cropmode=none)
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Yes, 9mm is a tapered cartridge. When you shove a straight sided bullet into the case it will show up as a step on the case. This is normal and expected. What matters is that the bullet can't set back and has adequate bullet tension. Typically folks test bullet set back by pressing the cartridge bullet first into your reloading bench (with moderate force) and measuring the OAL afterwards to see if the bullet seated any deeper. Bullet tension is set by the sizing die (not the crimp die), so if there is bullet set back, take a look at the sizing die setup.
Even though at your chosen OAL they fit and chamber you would be better off knowing where the length becomes a problem. You need to find the maximum OAL that will fit in your chamber with that bullet and barrel (or all barrels you intend on reloading for). This is outlined in the this thread with excellent instruction: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=103620.0
I'd also review all the other really useful threads in the sticky here: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=100352.0
Welcome to the reloading club. This forum is the best on the web for learning how to reload pistol! Folks here are super knowledgeable and helpful so keep asking questions and post up your results.
Cheers,
Toby
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My experience with the Berry's RN is they'll push test close to 1.20, which is far longer than will fit in the magazine. That said, 1.15 is a little long for the regular Berry's RN due to the fact that your seating depth is only .183. Ignore that number if you're actually using the HBRN.
The coke bottle shape is perfectly normal.
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Even though at your chosen OAL they fit and chamber you would be better off knowing where the length becomes a problem. You need to find the maximum OAL that will fit in your chamber with that bullet and barrel (or all barrels you intend on reloading for). This is outlined in the this thread with excellent instruction: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=103620.0
Welcome aboard !
Toby was spot on, but allow me to further emphasize one of his points. The Barrel is The Queen; she who must be obeyed.
It doesn't matter what your recipe, any "friend", a CZ Forum moderator, any other book, or set of instructions tells you. If the ammo doesn't fit the Barrel's chamber then it cannot be fired in that barrel and it's therefore useless. So the first thing you MUST do is satisfy the barrel. We can even take that one step further... Within reason, it doesn't even matter what the round looks like. If it meets the safety requirements, AND fits the chamber, then it's OK to proceed.
In this way we learn that reloading is mostly a Science composed of hard facts and figures. Thus, weights, lengths, diameters, specifications mean far more than "what it looks like". There is also some Art, but that 'kicks in' well after the Science has been met and satisfied.
So the very first step with any bullet that's new to you is to discover the Maximum OAL. The Max OAL is a product of how that bullet fits inside the chamber. 1) This will be a different number for every bullet-barrel combination. You cannot look at a new bullet and tell, you MUST measure. 2) It doesn't mean we're going to directly use the number, it simply becomes one of your hard "Limits". In football you must play between the chalk lines. If you make the world's greatest ever catch outside the lines ("out of bounds"), then it all counts for nothing. In reloading if you build a fantastic cartridge outside the Limits, then it's the same... all your efforts are wasted. So you must learn where those limits (or boundaries) are before you start.
The articles Toby suggested will explain more about where those limits are AND how to test for them.
Once found, we highly suggest you record that information in your personal reloading notebook. Since the bullet is the variable factor, I suggest you set aside one new page for every new-to-you bullet you encounter. Write it down while it's fresh in your mind because in 2 weeks you won't have a clue.
This is all new territory. You're drinking from a fire hose while you learn your Press and learn the 9mm Cartridge and learn Reloading. You'll have questions. We've been there. We are only here because others helped us through this stage. So please understand, it's OK to ask questions.
All the best. ;)
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I set up light crimp (as per instructions too).
This terminology is in error. You have learned it from your reading, but you will go further in your understanding of proper 9mm Luger reloading if you begin to think in another way....
The Taper Crimp is one of the features (in reality: a hard dimension) that helps the cartridge meet the requirements of the barrel. If you did not change the barrel, then the dimension that helps satisfy the barrel did not change either. Taper Crimp is therefore a function of the barrel. You can try 100 different bullets, but until you change the barrel, there is only a very small range of dimensions that the barrel will accept. In other words, once the barrel is satisfied with your Taper Crimp dimension you will not be changing it again.
By using the term "Light Taper Crimp", you infer that there is such a thing as "Heavy" and "Moderate" taper crimp. There is not. There is only the small range of hard dimensions that satisfies the requirements of your one and only CZ barrel.
I tell you all this so that you can simply say, "My taper crimp is set correctly" and you're done. Taper Crimp is part of that Science that I discussed earlier. It's either spot-on and it works, or it's the equivalent of that out of bounds catch and is worthless.
;)
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My experience with the Berry's RN is they'll push test close to 1.20, which is far longer than will fit in the magazine. That said, 1.15 is a little long for the regular Berry's RN due to the fact that your seating depth is only .183. Ignore that number if you're actually using the HBRN.
The coke bottle shape is perfectly normal.
Yes, I will try push test on my pistol. The thing is that I'm using Berry's 124gr RNDS, not HBRN. (I will post photo of bullet and it's dimensions). So, Berrys recommend to use 1.15 as safe OAL.
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My experience with the Berry's RN is they'll push test close to 1.20, which is far longer than will fit in the magazine. That said, 1.15 is a little long for the regular Berry's RN due to the fact that your seating depth is only .183. Ignore that number if you're actually using the HBRN.
The coke bottle shape is perfectly normal.
Yes, I will try push test on my pistol. The thing is that I'm using Berry's 124gr RNDS, not HBRN. (I will post photo of bullet and it's dimensions). So, Berrys recommend to use 1.15 as safe OAL.
It's absolutely safe, but IMO not ideal.
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Wobbly, thank you for the kind words. I was learning reloading theory for more than one year, I must admit that this forum inspired me to think about it. I looked tons of videos on YouTube and studied Lee Reloading manual even before I bought press. I collected and cleaned my brass and purchased projectiles on Black Friday! (I'm thrifty :) ). But only now I have time (chance given by "working from home") to practice and learn. And I'm aware that the practice is the best learning and "goes slow - goes far". My Classic Turret Press is installed, today I did some lubrication and, boy, ram moves almost silently now! My powder and primers still on the way (impossible to find anything, but I caught CCI 500 and Winchester 231 on MidwayUsa.com. Not cheap, if I was wise I would bought them earlier).
By using the term "Light Taper Crimp", you infer that there is such a thing as "Heavy" and "Moderate" taper crimp. There is not. There is only the small range of hard dimensions that satisfies the requirements of your one and only CZ barrel.
;)
Here I basically followed Lee instructions how to install Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die. They say "Screw die in, until it just touches the shell holder and back out the adjusting screw. With the loaded round in the die, turn the adjusting screw in 1/2 turn for a light crimp and one full turn for a heavy crimp..... "
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I have a question about factory new Lee dies. Any cleaning/lubrication is needed? What about O-rings?
I saw a video where "paint thinner" was recommended to clean new dies (to keep interiors dry and clean of any future residue) and lately slight lube on exteriors.
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My experience with the Berry's RN is they'll push test close to 1.20, which is far longer than will fit in the magazine. That said, 1.15 is a little long for the regular Berry's RN due to the fact that your seating depth is only .183. Ignore that number if you're actually using the HBRN.
The coke bottle shape is perfectly normal.
Yes, I will try push test on my pistol. The thing is that I'm using Berry's 124gr RNDS, not HBRN. (I will post photo of bullet and it's dimensions). So, Berrys recommend to use 1.15 as safe OAL.
It's absolutely safe, but IMO not ideal.
Here's dimensions of the bullet:
(https://pniwqg.bn.files.1drv.com/y4m0UqlkmgmgfVQcXTqiFvbYbie5m7LTNOgepEJaJgTWiUwn4tJPI_MyyHmvU1l26moLheyH64Dq6nYEYRo4iC9Y2itc7y-uMqYAhqy7S__UAcJh-4ghpC2ZLWPl5f2u6oDXfEccIJeoXf3Qcd_Vd-bGBR_TqshUrhKGF-QgqlADhITaY3eAhlaymOxtaoCvEczKVI0bV1gUWPMLpr73TJNeA?width=841&height=820&cropmode=none)
Pulled out bullet:
(https://pxiwqg.bn.files.1drv.com/y4mIajrO0xBRrbTP2H0YlZkCCLj8wVGJAxWy0kGEprZW_cGt76-pWWj5lS1aa8B5cQUaA3PdImNoRkKyzKCCSyJrU1bmSM4Qyoit4cy1PwBP8E4fsFx2f6dvvi5sQppbfTBHbNKCiy4ReM7649_3Ht94qE6GPsp0rWnHToQDu-zfaUxSY1uw9Dl7OHWJYku8yp2paXK2Fw-14D7_KgbFYdrow?width=578&height=407&cropmode=none)
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I still maintain that 1.15 is too long.
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That’s a heavy crimp on that bullet you pulled. I wouldn’t recommend using the factory crimp die on plated bullets especially Berry’s which measures .356” dia. The FCD swages down the bullet and can damage the coating.
I’d recommend using a taper crimp die for plated bullets like Berry’s because of the .356 diameter.
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Rcher -
Some comments....
• First of all... You're doing great ! You're learning. You're having fun. You're experimenting. This last one is most important, because like I said, a great deal of this hobby is science, and experimenting is simply part of science. You've got the tools and you're using them. That's so good to see.
Here I basically followed Lee instructions how to install Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die.
• The Lee instructions are really just enough to get you close. You've got to tweak and adjust so that the output makes a product that's right for your barrel. One of the reasons is that the CZ barrel simply requires more precise settings than your typical Ruger or S&W 9mm.
• Additionally, you'll find that the Lee FCD is an item that people either love or hate. If you think people get opinionated about politics, all that pales in comparison to feelings about the FCD !! Let's just say it's good enough to start with, but if you ever order from Midway or Grafs again, then add in one of these to have on hand.... Lee Taper Crimp Die. (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1016834814?pid=274765) That will be $13 well spent.
• As to OAL.... Berry doesn't tell you what your OAL should be, that's a job best left to your Queen, the barrel. "Listen to the barrel" was the entire purpose of my first post. Not saying that 1.150" won't work, because it will fit. But we did a lot of testing here some years ago and proved that the bullets like to be more deeply seated, typically between 0.200 and 0.0250". That means you need to get down to at least 1.130". However, you needn't take my word for it. Load some at both lengths and see for yourself.
• As far as bullet length of your 124gr Berry RN... we know what that number is because we have THIS (https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=62657.0). If you'll average the length of 10 of your bullets, then I bet you'll come up with our number. Berry makes the very best plated bullets, and we've been using them almost 20 years. In fact they used to sponsor this very forum. So we're fairly comfortable with what we're advising you on.
• Your last photo (of the pulled bullet) looks normal to me. Usually a taper crimp in the correct range will leave a small indent in the bullet, which I see yours certainly has. However, as per THIS ARTICLE (https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=78873.0) we'd still like you to set up your die to achieve case mouth diameters between 0.376 and 0.378". Or, as suggested, if you have a single brand of brass, then press a Berry into a sized case and measure that.
I have a question about factory new Lee dies. Any cleaning/lubrication is needed?
• I never have cleaned. I thoroughly disassemble and inspect, but knowing the Lee dies will rust, I would not do a lot of oil removal. In fact, I coat my Lee and Hornady dies with waxy case lube to keep them nice looking and to insure trouble-free operation.
Conclusion
• From all that I'm seeing and hear you saying, I think your're ready to load your first rounds this weekend. If you need any last minute clarifications I'll be popping in and out all day and we'll all be happy to assist.
All the best.
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I saw a video where "paint thinner" was recommended to clean new dies (to keep interiors dry and clean of any future residue) and lately slight lube on exteriors.
IMHO paint thinner is a little aggressive, any o-ring in a die may age prematurely. I use Hornady "One Shot Cleaner" on new dies. It cleans and leaves a dry film on the outside which helps prevent rust. I reapply to dies on a regular basis. BUT any mild de-greaser followed by a LIGHT wipe down with oil will work.
Good Luck
P.s. I use "One Shot Cleaner" to clean the entire press
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Plus 1 on the hornady one shot cleaner. It leaves a film behind for excellent corrosion protection.
Cheers,
Toby
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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Wobbly -
. One of the reasons is that the CZ barrel simply requires more precise settings than your typical Ruger or S&W 9mm.
I don't have CZ, but I'd assume that my CZ clone (Sarsilmaz Mega) has the shortest leade.
• Additionally, you'll find that the Lee FCD is an item that people either love or hate. If you think people get opinionated about politics, all that pales in comparison to feelings about the FCD !! Let's just say it's good enough to start with, but if you ever order from Midway or Grafs again, then add in one of these to have on hand.... Lee Taper Crimp Die. (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1016834814?pid=274765) That will be $13 well spent.
Well, I'm confused with what Lee is saying that "...it offers little or no advantage when used with 1986 or newer Lee Dies as the crimp angle is already a modified taper crimp". Can you please clarify?
https://leeprecision.com/taper-crimp-die-9mm.html
• As to OAL.... Berry doesn't tell you what your OAL should be, that's a job best left to your Queen, the barrel. "Listen to the barrel" was the entire purpose of my first post. Not saying that 1.150" won't work, because it will fit. But we did a lot of testing here some years ago and proved that the bullets like to be more deeply seated, typically between 0.200 and 0.0250". That means you need to get down to at least 1.130". However, you needn't take my word for it. Load some at both lengths and see for yourself.
• As far as bullet length of your 124gr Berry RN... we know what that number is because we have THIS (https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=62657.0). If you'll average the length of 10 of your bullets, then I bet you'll come up with our number. Berry makes the very best plated bullets, and we've been using them almost 20 years. In fact they used to sponsor this very forum. So we're fairly comfortable with what we're advising you on.
• Your last photo (of the pulled bullet) looks normal to me. Usually a taper crimp in the correct range will leave a small indent in the bullet, which I see yours certainly has. However, as per THIS ARTICLE (https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=78873.0) we'd still like you to set up your die to achieve case mouth diameters between 0.376 and 0.378". Or, as suggested, if you have a single brand of brass, then press a Berry into a sized case and measure that.
I have a question about factory new Lee dies. Any cleaning/lubrication is needed?
• I never have cleaned. I thoroughly disassemble and inspect, but knowing the Lee dies will rust, I would not do a lot of oil removal. In fact, I coat my Lee and Hornady dies with waxy case lube to keep them nice looking and to insure trouble-free operation.
Conclusion
• From all that I'm seeing and hear you saying, I think your're ready to load your first rounds this weekend. If you need any last minute clarifications I'll be popping in and out all day and we'll all be happy to assist.
All the best.
My powder/primers order will be delivered in May, so I have enough time to play with bullet seating and crimp setup :) Today I did plunk and push tests for all my 9mm barrels. First I made dummy round with 1.132 length with no crimp (just used seating die). My plunk test went well - dropped in with sound, I can twist bullet in chamber without problems, bullet is dropped out easily. Then I tried a push test and it was hard. I managed to push it further to 0.131 only on my Sarsilmaz Mega barrel. I think this can be still caliper's error and I didn't push it at all. After that I produced another dummy round with OAL 1.156 - my plunk tests went well on all barrels, but trying "push test" I was able to push it to 1.155 only.... Confused.
With this being said I think that either all my barrels chambers, including Sarsilmaz Mega are forgiving or round nose shape of Berrys's bullet fits all of them.
I think I will try reloading live ammo with OAL=1.14 and load 3.9/4.0 grains (Winchester 231) when I receive my powder and bullets. I still don't know when ranges will be open to try them, so I'm not in hurry anyway.
Thank you, everybody for your help - I really appreciate it!
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The Berry's RN bullet is very forgiving wrt OAL.
I would still suggest loading at 1.13 to achieve adequate seating depth, but like Wobbly says...try a longer length, and see what happens.
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@wobbly said: "In fact, I coat my Lee and Hornady dies with waxy case lube to keep them nice looking and to insure trouble-free operation."
This is a keeper!
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Keep a logbook on your work so you can go back and refer to it if (really when) you have problems. Record all the data you need to insure you have the data you need to help trouble shoot a problem. And to go back and make notes about weapon used/group size/reliability, etc. with that load data.
Mixing reloading equipment can lead to problems (mostly talking shell holders and dies here). But, sometimes, even using equipment from the same maker and you'll still have a problem.
Bright lights in your work area, so you can see what you are doing and where you are setting the adjustments on the scale, powder measure, use the right shell holder, etc.
Organize. I'm still coming up with different (not always better) ways to organize the small stuff so I know where it is when I want it.
Multiple sources of reloading data (I think I've got nine or ten reloading manuals plus I check out bullet maker and powder maker web sites for data, too.) Yeah, they'll disagree fairly awesome but that's what happens when you use a different gun, different conditions, etc. Sometimes I find data in the old books (like on Red Dot powder just the other day) that's not in some of the newer manuals - hey, I ran across a 4 lb. can of Red Dot from my dad's stash I'd forgotten I had).
Buy your components when you see them on sale, or a shipper is waiving shipping costs or hazmat costs. Don't wait till you run out to start looking or you'll find yourself like a lot of other folks the last few weeks-complaining about how they can't find bullets, powder or primers. Let alone ammo.
Inspection, inspection, inspection. You handle brass, bullets, pour powder, etc. Use that time to look the components over and make sure the cases are in good condition (you may not catch 100% of them but neither do the big companies that make/sell ammo), your bullets are formed correctly, the primers have the anvil in them and are the same color as the rest of them in the box, the powder looks/smells right, your scale is zeroed before you start, your cases have primers and powder in them before you seat a bullet. And you are using the correct primers, powder, amount of powder and bullet for the ammo you are reloading.
Insure you have adequate storage containers/methods for reloaded ammo storage and a way to ID the loads in those containers.
I probably forgot some stuff along the way.
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Well, I'm confused with what Lee is saying that "...it offers little or no advantage when used with 1986 or newer Lee Dies as the crimp angle is already a modified taper crimp". Can you please clarify?
https://leeprecision.com/taper-crimp-die-9mm.html
I think this is in reference to "combination bullet seating AND crimp dies".
https://leeprecision.com/bul-seat-die-9mm-lug.html
Many re-loaders of handgun rounds prefer to seat the bullet in one station and remove the bell (taper crimp) next, especially with coated rounds. You adjust the seating die to only seat, Lee includes this with the instructions.
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I don't have CZ, but I'd assume that my CZ clone (Sarsilmaz Mega) has the shortest leade.
• You're not catching on. In science, in reloading, we do not make assumptions... we do tests, we make measurements, and find out for ourselves. We take a set of facts, we build on those facts by combining them with new facts until we see the entire picture. Doing it any other way is simply dangerous. Making assumptions in this hobby can get you a missing finger or blinded eye.
• I'm not familiar with your pistol. When makers claim it is a 'CZ clone', what they are saying is that they bought the patent rights from CZ for the CZ 75 trigger mechanism. The "mechanism design" does not cover the barrel, which could use any dimensions. Bottom line: I don't know and you don't know. So you're starting from zero, and you'll need to do all your own measurements.
Hot tip of the day: Throw all the hear-say, internet rumors, and the false advertising out the window and believe only what you measure for yourself using your measuring tools and your barrel. That's the only way to safely proceed.
Well, I'm confused with what Lee is saying that "...it offers little or no advantage when used with 1986 or newer Lee Dies as the crimp angle is already a modified taper crimp". Can you please clarify?
Before the 80's there was really only one 9mm on the market, the Browning Hi Power. The 9x19 Luger cartridge was a 'joke', and all real men carried a 1911 in 45ACP. About the only 9mm made in the USA was a Ruger revolver. And revolvers all use a Roll Crimp.... so a lot of 9mm Dies provided a roll crimp in place of the correct taper crimp.
Then the US Army converted to 9mm and the USA went 9mm crazy. All of a sudden law enforcement departments everywhere were converting to 9mm, and 9mm pistol sales were through the roof. So die makers had to go back and start revising all the die designs. But still, most reloaders were using single stage presses where you need to change the die for every step. So the maximum number of dies for handgun reloading was 3. Seating and Crimping functions both took place in the 3rd die.
Then Dillon popularized the progressive press. It was shown early on that the crimp process was much better done is a separate step, and not in the Seating Die as had been done for the previous 60 years. So the 4th die entered the reloading scene.
So what I believe they are trying to say is that if your Seating Die has previously applied either type of cartridge mouth crimp, then this die will be of little use. Which is a true (but very nebulous) statement.
All I can say is that I use this exact die on 3 different calipers and it works very good for applying a simple and highly effective Taper Crimp onto the cartridge case mouth. And it does so without changing the bullet or cartridge diameter, which the FCD is very famous for doing.
My powder/primers order will be delivered in May, so I have enough time to play with bullet seating and crimp setup :) Today I did plunk and push tests for all my 9mm barrels. First I made dummy round with 1.132 length with no crimp (just used seating die). My plunk test went well - dropped in with sound, I can twist bullet in chamber without problems, bullet is dropped out easily. Then I tried a push test and it was hard. I managed to push it further to 0.131 only on my Sarsilmaz Mega barrel. I think this can be still caliper's error and I didn't push it at all. After that I produced another dummy round with OAL 1.156 - my plunk tests went well on all barrels, but trying "push test" I was able to push it to 1.155 only.... Confused.
By using our test (as clearly outlined HERE (https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=103620.0)) use of any other method is made moot because our test method is more detailed, and in fact more thorough. Your testing was "hard" because you did not follow the instructions. Please read them again.
With this being said I think that either all my barrels chambers, including Sarsilmaz Mega are forgiving or round nose shape of Berrys's bullet fits all of them.
Yes the Berry ogive shape is very forgiving. We knew that. You should be getting a Max OAL measurement well in excess of 1.169". Something more than 1.180".
I think I will try reloading live ammo with OAL=1.14 and load 3.9/4.0 grains (Winchester 231) when I receive my powder and bullets. I still don't know when ranges will be open to try them, so I'm not in hurry anyway.
OK. So what I hear you saying is that you're not following our advice on OAL. And you're not going to shoot a "ladder" of incremental loads beginning at the Staring Load.
All the best.
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... I don't have CZ, but I'd assume that my CZ clone (Sarsilmaz Mega) has the shortest leade.
The late, great English Philosopher Benjamin Hill said it best -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zOhedE0IRk
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Thank you for very detailed reply, that' a lot I learned Don't get me wrong - I'm 100% for scientific approach!
By using our test (as clearly outlined HERE (https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=103620.0)) use of any other method is made moot because our test method is more detailed, and in fact more thorough. Your testing was "hard" because you did not follow the instructions. Please rear them again.
Yep. I did exactly as described but used sized and expanded cases, instead of "fired". My bad. Today I repeated THIS (https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=103620.0) test with great diligence. I used 5 bullets and 3 fired cases for my test. It was not easy to find cases where I can freely push Berry's bullet, I end up with 3 Blazer Brass cases (thinner brass) and same length. Tried on all my barrels multiple times (it took about 2 hours overall).
My OALs before test was about 1.190-1.210. After all my attempts I got "push test" results from 1.180" to 1.156" and can't push bullet into chamber any further. And I'm sure that bullet is still "pushable" - cause I can push it against my desk.
So, how should I read these results: "1.156 - 1.180"? Again, this range of values is for all my barrels, 5 different bullets and 3 different cases.
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Well, if you tried it on all your barrels, then you need to accept the shortest number as your "limit" since a cartridge of that length will work in all your barrels. So your Max OAL for that specific bullet is 1.156 - 0.015 or 1.140".
Piece of cake.
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I wish I had read this thread before, I just loaded a ladder With berry's 124gr RN and some AA#7 using Western powder's data. They report 6.5 to 7.6gr and a whopping 1.160 OAL. It seemed a little long but I did as recommended but no higher than 7.4grains. Even at 6.5 gr the case is quiet full. We will see how it works when the range is open again.
Sorry for hijacking
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I wish I had read this thread before, I just loaded a ladder with Berry's 124gr RN and some AA#7 using Western powder's data. They report 6.5 to 7.6gr and a whopping 1.160 OAL. It seemed a little long but I did as recommended....
• I'm glad you did inject this. As stated in the "Finding Max OAL" article, the numbers they mention are part of their report, and are not a recommendation for what OAL you should be using. Go back and read again. The introduction to the article was re-written about 45 days ago to make this clearer.
• Luckily, but only because the Berry RN design is so forgiving, you can load at an 1.160" OAL and still fire these in a CZ. That would absolutely not be an option with most other brands. If it weren't for the fact that No.7 requires so much volume I'd tell you to go back and re-seat them, but they'll do OK just like they are. However, they will not be the most accurate bullet you ever shot.
Here's a real recommendation: I realize powder is hard to come by right now, but... Next time try the bullet more deeply seated (say 1.130") and use W231, HP38, Sport Pistol, N320, Bullseye or something in that speed range. These powders will use about 1/3 less powder and will more easily accommodate deeper seating.
;)
Now we return you to our regularly scheduled thread...
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I wish I had read this thread before, I just loaded a ladder with Berry's 124gr RN and some AA#7 using Western powder's data. They report 6.5 to 7.6gr and a whopping 1.160 OAL. It seemed a little long but I did as recommended....
• I'm glad you did inject this. As stated in the "Finding Max OAL" article, the numbers they mention are part of their report, and are not a recommendation for what OAL you should be using. Go back and read again. The introduction to the article was re-written about 45 days ago to make this clearer.
• Luckily, but only because the Berry RN design is so forgiving, you can load at an 1.160" OAL and still fire these in a CZ. That would absolutely not be an option with most other brands. If it weren't for the fact that No.7 requires so much volume I'd tell you to go back and re-seat them, but they'll do OK just like they are. However, they will not be the most accurate bullet you ever shot.
Here's a real recommendation: I realize powder is hard to come by right now, but... Next time try the bullet more deeply seated (say 1.130") and use W231, HP38, Sport Pistol, N320, Bullseye or something in that speed range. These powders will use about 1/3 less powder and will more easily accommodate deeper seating.
;)
Now we return you to our regularly scheduled thread...
I was trying some leftover AA#7 that I had been using for .357 magnum. I'm just experimenting with various combos since the range is closed. Hornady AA#7 "worked exceptionally well". I also ran a ladder with AA#7 and PD124gr RN.
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Sometimes an oddball/not usually recommended powder can really surprise you.
I've finished trying BE86 and AA#7 for the .40's. Even the lead bullets with Herco (I know, an odd powder for .40 S&W) shoots better groups than I got with those two powders and the jacketed hollow points. What does best for me, so far, in the .40 with jacketed bullets is Blue Dot.
If you settle on a "good load" or two and that's all you try/buy components for you may be cheating yourself later if those components are hard to get for one reason or another.
My powder for .223's for years was IMR4198 (and oddball powder for the bullets I use) but in the last few years I've found two other powders that work nearly as well (BLC2 and H335).
You buy a 1 lb. can of powder now and then and work up some loads with different bullets to see if you can come up with a good combo, be sure to write the data down and then later, if you need components and can't find the usual you buy/use you might be able to find something that still works well.
I'm about to try Red Dot in 9MM (125 grain coated lead bullets), Unique in .40 S&W and one other powder I can't remember right now (loads been sitting on the bench for more than a month now that I haven't been going to the range.
I've got 147 grain hollow points waiting on 9MM loading, 124 grain HAP waiting on loading, 180 LFN in .40, 165 grain hollow points for the .40, etc., etc. Just waiting on loading time and range time to try out.
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I don't have CZ, but I'd assume that my CZ clone (Sarsilmaz Mega) has the shortest leade.
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Hot tip of the day: Throw all the hear-say, internet rumors, and the false advertising out the window and believe only what you measure for yourself using your measuring tools and your barrel. That's the only way to safely proceed.
Great advice right here
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Well, today I tested my first reloads. Last time I shoot my handguns 6 months ago, so without good practice I'm satisfied with today's results.
Tested loads:
Berry's 124 gr RN, Blazer Brass, OAL=1.1400, CCI 500, Win 231 3.9 gr
Berry's 124 gr RN, Blazer Brass, OAL=1.1400, CCI 500, Win 231 4.0 gr
For warmup shoot factory S&B 124gr RN.
Tested guns:
Beretta 92FS
Sarsilmaz Mega 2000
Posting results for Sarsilmaz only, my accuracy with Beretta was bad today even with factory ammo. Need to work on my grip, it was terrible.
Reloaded bullet (top) and shot cartridge (middle) compared with factory S&B (bottom):
(https://onhnoa.bn.files.1drv.com/y4mrzdlcG19LrefXzXRr2QRxt6QyE9jRzucH6QWC123OPTsAGFhiDZNhTFjQDMvLDB4StbLNhNUA-z8Bm4g8IxEOq8aUGegSrTVfG-WyZcUWo9VxZT9AU7hT6i640F9SJ651jhxc2BVWVwVz2W2gxeAfcmC_SU1ZRhakqdlpFwrhsEOSneJzoalU8e99CfIPsSKLRcA51Z-N5qLY6G-cHC85w?width=495&height=1024&cropmode=none)
Distance: 7 yards, 3" target
Berry's 124gr RN, OAL=1.1400, Win 231 3.9 gr:
(https://mnjmkw.bn.files.1drv.com/y4mWS6GT1zGFng4octQE1hkdJHnp5AcWwz_xSJ9ptBSUzrbxAFFxMMjq21MaLWkxXY07bEkNY9O7Uo1vfsGkM-pvNAn3xpOnkPZ3UI52-GDAEGCMtqwUNIWPl6Ao3Ll2WqQVmHyld0HeLihvZx81JxkM9XUz7iwFA84T11-mVfRf_3LMfqvy18ZbHdGNGDiEwRXfj4C75CmD5RmWUeitZTd8A?width=660&height=594&cropmode=none)
Berry's 124gr RN, OAL=1.1400, Win 231 4.0 gr:
(https://mxjmkw.bn.files.1drv.com/y4mIDSPJSHe-nn_y3TAztlcbZUfox6Cq9uIm_78uZyR-5nWlUl_WRsL2dU9epqDgezZH00bb2d5pupxOmnvgrauEvPgindQdsdiq3-23RIlgSUzfk3Z9hj_4eBS30ConR6I_Aw8O2mKrjvd2PbKA_65xFmMcf1SlIGmbGNHZEeX2EyOOfZLv3AInqhEZA0WgH5B54UBslYhBJpJkpA5NEQdow?width=660&height=578&cropmode=none)
Overall, I'm happy - recoil is very soft and my results with factory ammo aren't better. And without any practice during last 6 months I didn't expect more :)
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Congrats! Any day at the range beats the alternative.
I'd take a look at your crimp die setting. It looks like the case mouth still has a little flare. Your case mouth diameter (right at the edge) should be ~0.377-0.378 inch. Or you can seat a bullet with an unflared case and measure the diameter to get your target crimp setting.
Cheers,
Toby
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Congrats! Any day at the range beats the alternative.
I'd take a look at your crimp die setting. It looks like the case mouth still has a little flare. Your case mouth diameter (right at the edge) should be ~0.377-0.378 inch. Or you can seat a bullet with an unflared case and measure the diameter to get your target crimp setting.
Cheers,
Toby
Thank you!
My case mouth diameter is 0.375-0.376. I think that's because Blazer Brass has very thin wall - 0.010 in my measurements.
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I found interesting topic about various brass wall thickness. Sounds like Blazer Brass can be used for plated or casted bullets with no less that 0.356" diameter. All FMJ bullets with 0.355" require brass with thicker walls.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/myth-busting-neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4
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I found interesting topic about various brass wall thickness. Sounds like Blazer Brass can be used for plated or casted bullets with no less that 0.356" diameter. All FMJ bullets with 0.355" require brass with thicker walls.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/myth-busting-neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4
At the factory, Blazer Brass is loaded with thin plated bullets.
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I personally use S&B,and Fiocchi for both minor and major load ammo. It’s thicker and has tight primer pockets. I swage them first before reloading them. No setbacks at all.
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I'd take a look at your crimp die setting. It looks like the case mouth still has a little flare. Your case mouth diameter (right at the edge) should be ~0.377-0.378 inch. Or you can seat a bullet with an unflared case and measure the diameter to get your target crimp setting.
Cheers,
Toby
Thank you!
My case mouth diameter is 0.375-0.376. I think that's because Blazer Brass has very thin wall - 0.010 in my measurements.
I think Toby is correct, I see it too. If you can see it in a photo, then it's more than 0.005". And I don't think it has much to do with the brand of brass.
What are you measuring with ? And where are you measuring ?
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I personally use S&B,and Fiocchi for both minor and major load ammo. It’s thicker and has tight primer pockets. I swage them first before reloading them. No setbacks at all.
My plan is to use BB/Speer/F.C. brass for plated bullets and S&B, Geco brass for Precision Delta FMJ.
BTW, I measured some random cases from the brass I collected on the range (made 3 measurement on each case and took medium).
PPU: 0.012" wall width
PMC: 0.0105"
TZZ: 0.010"
F.C.: 0.010"
CBC: 0.0105"
S.B - R: 0.0115"
S.B. : 0.0125"
Geco: 0.0115"
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I'd take a look at your crimp die setting. It looks like the case mouth still has a little flare. Your case mouth diameter (right at the edge) should be ~0.377-0.378 inch. Or you can seat a bullet with an unflared case and measure the diameter to get your target crimp setting.
Cheers,
Toby
Thank you!
My case mouth diameter is 0.375-0.376. I think that's because Blazer Brass has very thin wall - 0.010 in my measurements.
I think Toby is correct, I see it too. If you can see it in a photo, then it's more than 0.005". And I don't think it has much to do with the brand of brass.
What are you measuring with ? And where are you measuring ?
I see flare on the photo too, however it is not visible on the real case without magnification.
I'm using iGaging EzCal caliper: https://www.amazon.com/iGaging-Electronic-Digital-Fractions-Stainless/dp/B001AQEZ2W/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=igaging+ezcal&qid=1593846870&sr=8-2
which gives 0.001" + 0.0005" accuracy. I was measuring at the very edge of case mouth.
And I had zero malfunctions on two pistols I fired (40 rounds total).
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One interesting lesson I learned.
I was very diligent and careful doing my first reloads, spent about 2 hours to load 60 rounds on Lee Turret pres. Checked powder load on every 10th case.
I already new that empty brass weight is inconsistent, but out of curiosity decided to check weights of all 60 loaded rounds.
Most rounds weight was in range 190.0 - 191.6 grains, but one sucker was 187.0 grains. It was scary, did I miss a powder load (which in my case was 3.9-4.0)?
So, I pulled the bullet out - hmm, powder was in place. So I checked weight of the empty brass case and yes - it was 3-4 grains lighter than other empty cases.
(All my brass was once fired Blazer Brass).
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I personally use S&B,and Fiocchi for both minor and major load ammo. It’s thicker and has tight primer pockets. I swage them first before reloading them. No setbacks at all.
My plan is to use BB/Speer/F.C. brass for plated bullets and S&B, Geco brass for Precision Delta FMJ.
BTW, I measured some random cases from the brass I collected on the range (made 3 measurement on each case and took medium).
PPU: 0.012" wall width
PMC: 0.0105"
TZZ: 0.010"
F.C.: 0.010"
CBC: 0.0105"
S.B - R: 0.0115"
S.B. : 0.0125"
Geco: 0.0115"
Keep in mind that the S&B have tight primer pockets. I had to swage the primer pockets to prevent crush primers during the loading process.
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Following this thread closely. My reloading experience has yet to begin since I am still living in Europe. The information and helpful attitudes from the forum members certainly makes it less daunting.
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Following this thread closely. My reloading experience has yet to begin since I am still living in Europe. The information and helpful attitudes from the forum members certainly makes it less daunting.
How's the C-19 in your area ? We had a trip planned for Italy in April. Obviously, we spent all of April looking at each other while sitting on our back porch, and saying, "Right now, we're supposed to be eating [insert mouth watering local dish here]" and crying. April was a very long month.
These last 4 or 5 posts... these guys are getting into reloading minutia. I shoot mixed brass and it all shoots fantastically. You can go there if you want, if you are interested in that level of detail, but it is absolutely not required. When you get to where your collection consists of several thousand 9mm cases, then you may want to toss out several of the less desirable brands they mention. But what they are talking about is way on down the road for you.
;)
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Following this thread closely. My reloading experience has yet to begin since I am still living in Europe. The information and helpful attitudes from the forum members certainly makes it less daunting.
How's the C-19 in your area ? We had a trip planned for Italy in April. Obviously, we spent all of April looking at each other while sitting on our back porch, and saying, "Right now, we're supposed to be eating [insert mouth watering local dish here]" and crying. April was a very long month.
These last 4 or 5 posts... these guys are getting into reloading minutia. I shoot mixed brass and it all shoots fantastically. You can go there if you want, if you are interested in that level of detail, but it is absolutely not required. When you get to where your collection consists of several thousand 9mm cases, then you may want to toss out several of the less desirable brands they mention. But what they are talking about is way on down the road for you.
;)
It's pretty much under control in The Netherlands. 37 new cases and 4 deaths yesterday. April in Italy would, in normal circumstances, be heaven. I was stationed there for three years back in the early '80s. I've only been back once since. Love the place.
Yeah, I don't expect to have the opportunity to be choosy particularly with component shortages expected to continue. I am just trying to assemble my beginning components before I return. I bought several types of powder based on recommendations I've seen here and I was able to buy some large pistol primers. Still looking for small primers. I expect a little less difficulty getting cases and projectiles.
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When I set up my new XL750 for 9mm I was getting bullet set back with mixed brass I ended up replacing the dillon sizing die with a U-die and the problem went away. I also noticed the Dillon die didn't do a very good job resizing the lower part of the case unless the die made a hard full contact with the shell holder.
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It's a die designer's dilemma. Do you bell the sizing die entrance so much that all the cases will enter easily, or worry about true full-length sizing ? IME, the average case shot in the average CZ will in all likelihood not need more sizing than the Dillon dies provide. This because the brass gets physically thicker near the head and simply doesn't expand out of shape in those lower regions. But I can see how an unsupported or other special chamber might generate the need for more complete sizing.
There's nothing special or magical about the die touching the shell holder. The die is simply sizing more of the case the deeper it's set. I adjust my dies to miss the shell holder by the thickness of a sheet of paper. In that way I get the maximum sizing distance without the collision. (The collision which could break the glass-fragile carbide ring.)
;)