The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: bobjd on April 27, 2020, 05:37:37 PM
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Does anyone have a performance comparison between the round nose and truncated cone bullets? I have been using the 125 gr. RN Blue bullets and am considering trying the TC bullets. The RN work fine but am wondering if the TC has any advantage.
Bob
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Been using the Flat Pointed and Lyman Truncated Cone shaped Bullets for years now.
The Rainier and Berry's Flat Points do have a longer bearing surface which may help accuracy in some Pistols.
When using them for IPSC Matches, they tend to cut cleaner holes on Targets and that Flat Point seems to have a hammering effect on the Steel Poppers,
whether in 9mm or .45 ACP.
(http://i.imgur.com/92qqf8Nl.jpg) (https://imgur.com/92qqf8N)
Accuracy of Berry's 124 grain Flat Points in Tanfoglio/RIA MAP1 FS at 50 feet
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Exactly what JWC said.
The down-side is that as popular as these are, a lot of Seating Dies aren't set up to handle them properly. If you're talking about the FP conicals (like Berry), then a flat anvil will do great. If you are talking about the conical HP then some of the hollow tube anvils from Hornady and Redding do a very respectable job. But there aren't many Seating Dies set up to handle bullets such as the Horanady XTP and HAP, or the Precision Delta JHP.
Offerings from Berry...
(https://i.imgur.com/eLTLp52.jpg)
Just my 2 cents.
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My experience is the same as jwc. I've compared RN and TCFP from Missouri in the same weight, same powder charges, same primers, and same brass. The COAL was different because of the bullet profile. The TCFP grouped better and knocked over steel plates with more force in .38 and 9mm. I've only tried FP and RS (which has a flat face) from Berry' in .45. The were also good, but so we're the RN.
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Been using the Flat Pointed and Lyman Truncated Cone shaped Bullets for years now.
The Rainier and Berry's Flat Points do have a longer bearing surface which may help accuracy in some Pistols.
When using them for IPSC Matches, they tend to cut cleaner holes on Targets and that Flat Point seems to have a hammering effect on the Steel Poppers,
whether in 9mm or .45 ACP.
(http://i.imgur.com/92qqf8Nl.jpg) (https://imgur.com/92qqf8N)
Accuracy of Berry's 124 grain Flat Points in Tanfoglio/RIA MAP1 FS at 50 feet
Thanks for the reply. Your results are what I am hoping for. I am satisfied with the RN but am looking to improve performance if I can. Nice shooting by the way.
Regards,
Bob
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Exactly what JWC said.
The down-side is that as popular as these are, a lot of Seating Dies aren't set up to handle them properly. If you're talking about the FP conicals (like Berry), then a flat anvil will do great. If you are talking about the conical HP then some of the hollow tube anvils from Hornady and Redding do a very respectable job. But there aren't many Seating Dies set up to handle bullets such as the Horanady XTP and HAP, or the Precision Delta JHP.
Offerings from Berry...
(https://i.imgur.com/eLTLp52.jpg)
Just my 2 cents.
Thanks for the info. Being new to the forum I really appreciate you being willing to share what you know. I have learned a lot. I am using a Dillon 650 with Lee dies. Loading 9MM 125 gr. RN Blue Bullets and have some 125 TC Blues on the way.
Regards,
Bob
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My experience is the same as jwc. I've compared RN and TCFP from Missouri in the same weight, same powder charges, same primers, and same brass. The COAL was different because of the bullet profile. The TCFP grouped better and knocked over steel plates with more force in .38 and 9mm. I've only tried FP and RS (which has a flat face) from Berry' in .45. The were also good, but so we're the RN.
Appreciate the reply. That is what I was hoping for. I will be using the same weight bullet and same powder charge as I am using with the RN so it will be interesting to see the results. It will be a week or two before I make the change over.
Regards,
Bob
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Thanks for the info. Being new to the forum I really appreciate you being willing to share what you know. I have learned a lot. I am using a Dillon 650 with Lee dies. Loading 9MM 125 gr. RN Blue Bullets and have some 125 TC Blues on the way.
I also use a Dillon XL650 with Lee and Lyman Dies
I will be using the same weight bullet and same powder charge as I am using with the RN so it will be interesting to see the results.
Just note that Flat Pointed Bullets do seat deeper into the case and pressure will be higher. You might want to start low and work up again.
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Thanks for the info. Being new to the forum I really appreciate you being willing to share what you know. I have learned a lot. I am using a Dillon 650 with Lee dies. Loading 9MM 125 gr. RN Blue Bullets and have some 125 TC Blues on the way.
Regards,
Bob
Bob -
I'm also using a 650, but I use Dillon dies. The last sets of Lee dies I saw did not offer an exchangeable seating anvil, and I think that's going to be the one thing you miss the most. The Lee dies are an excellent value, but lack some of the refined features you'll need as you experiment with different bullet shapes.
The first thing a Seating Die should do is stand the bullet straight-up. The second thing it should do is provide centering. Those ideas are so close that often they are often confused. The lack of either will result in a crushed case. Then finally seating by spreading the pressure of seating over such a large area that marks and indentations are not left on the bullet's ogive or meplat.
I mention this because conical bullets present a tremendous opportunity for all 3. Here's a graphic of how the seating anvil (shown in red) would be acting upon a conical bullet. You can readily see that the conical shape easily provides the means to straighten, center and push over a large area. It's very conical shape invites that.
(https://i.imgur.com/YemepJe.jpg)
You could seat this bullet with a flat anvil, but the flat area is so small (relative to the full diameter) that the bullet is just as likely to be pushed into the case sideways. This because a flat anvil offers no centering.
So to get the most from your new bullet shape, it might also be time to consider a different Seating Die.
Hope this helps.
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Thanks for the info. Being new to the forum I really appreciate you being willing to share what you know. I have learned a lot. I am using a Dillon 650 with Lee dies. Loading 9MM 125 gr. RN Blue Bullets and have some 125 TC Blues on the way.
Regards,
Bob
Bob -
I'm also using a 650, but I use Dillon dies. The last sets of Lee dies I saw did not offer an exchangeable seating anvil, and I think that's going to be the one thing you miss the most. The Lee dies are an excellent value, but lack some of the refined features you'll need as you experiment with different bullet shapes.
The first thing a Seating Die should do is stand the bullet straight-up. The second thing it should do is provide centering. Those ideas are so close that often they are often confused. The lack of either will result in a crushed case. Then finally seating by spreading the pressure of seating over such a large area that marks and indentations are not left on the bullet's ogive or meplat.
I mention this because conical bullets present a tremendous opportunity for all 3. Here's a graphic of how the seating anvil (shown in red) would be acting upon a conical bullet. You can readily see that the conical shape easily provides the means to straighten, center and push over a large area. It's very conical shape invites that.
(https://i.imgur.com/YemepJe.jpg)
You could seat this bullet with a flat anvil, but the flat area is so small (relative to the full diameter) that the bullet is just as likely to be pushed into the case sideways. This because a flat anvil offers no centering.
So to get the most from your new bullet shape, it might also be time to consider a different Seating Die.
Hope this helps.
Wobbly,
Thanks again for sharing your extensive knowledge! :)
You explanation is exactly why I decided to purchase the Hornady Seating Die (#044144). I really like my Lee dies, but unfortunately the seating anvil can not be exchanged. The Hornady die comes with a hollow tube type and flat shaped anvils, which seems to handle all shapes very well and gives consistent OAL's. I also added the Microjust Seating Micrometer to the die, which helps it provide even better repeatable precision.
With the addition of the Hornady seating die and the Lyman Neck Expanding (M) die that I also added, my finished rounds are at least 50% better than they were when using just the Lee dies. I am in no way bad mouthing or trying to dissuade someone from the Lee dies because they also produce nice and safe reloaded ammo.
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Thanks for the info. Being new to the forum I really appreciate you being willing to share what you know. I have learned a lot. I am using a Dillon 650 with Lee dies. Loading 9MM 125 gr. RN Blue Bullets and have some 125 TC Blues on the way.
Regards,
Bob
bobjd,
If you don't mind me asking, at what OAL are you seating the 9mm 125gr RN Blue Bullets? I have some coming in the next couple days and am curious as I haven't been able to find very much information on that particular bullet.
Thank you Sir
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.....what OAL are you seating the 9mm 125gr RN Blue Bullets? I have some coming in the next couple days and am curious as I haven't been able to find very much information on that particular bullet.
Mr Green -
Welcome Aboard !
On a side note... Ordering bullets for a CZ without first inquiring as to their utility is a great way to end up with a pile of bullets you end up not being able to use. Not fussing at you, just giving you a general warning. Luckily, RN are typically not big offenders. That award goes to 147gr anything and 124gr conicals. But especially right now, when supplies are hard to find, receiving a supply of bullets you can't use would be a kicker.
All the best.
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bobjd,
If you don't mind me asking, at what OAL are you seating the 9mm 125gr RN Blue Bullets? I have some coming in the next couple days and am curious as I haven't been able to find very much information on that particular bullet.
Thank you Sir
The OAL that I use for 125 RN Blue Bullets is 1.100. That does a nice plunk test in my CZ and works well in my other brands. Hope that helps. Bob
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JWC
Thanks for the reminder about increased pressure. I tend to load in the middle of the recommended range but with the increased length I will be start a bit lower and work up.
Thanks Bob
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Wobbly, thanks for the info on the seating die. Until a year ago I was loading on a Lee Classic Turret press which I think did a good job. I came across a basket case Dillon 650 that had been sitting in a guys garage for about 8 years. It was set up for 45 ACP and had powder and primers in it as well as rust and dries grease in the pins. I disassembled it, cleaned, removed rust, lubed and reassembled. I installed my Lee 9mm dies and have been using it for the last 11 months.
After your reminder about the seating die the 650 will be reunited with a new set of Dillon dies. I ordered them today.
Thanks,
Bob
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Wobbly, Thank you I will keep you posted. Bob
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I second or 3rd or 25th....everything said regarding the superiority of flat points for their ease of loading, longer bearing surface, and terminal effects on steel. I've also preached the need for dramatically different OAL when using FP vs RN in a cz. 124gr FP is where it's at for steel!
But....I've managed to very successfully load many thousands of various FP bullets, including the XTP, and various plated HP, along with all variety of RN using my lowly Lee 4 die (carbide) sets. I crimp separately in a FCD, so the 3rd die is used solely for seating and works perfectly, literally. Never had a single instance of trouble. I guess you would classify it as a hollow stem type. What really surprises me is that I am able to remove the stem at any time simply by turning the depth knob all the way out and then dumping the seater stem out the top of the die. As I recall, Lee even includes an instruction stating that they will customize a stem if needed for unique bullets for something like $3. Did I buy the last good set of dies Lee ever made? I'm constantly confused by how so many feel the need for expensive rcbs,dillion,Redding, etc just to even get powder and bullets back into a case, nevermind accuracy concerns. How am I so lucky?
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
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Thanks for the info. Being new to the forum I really appreciate you being willing to share what you know. I have learned a lot. I am using a Dillon 650 with Lee dies. Loading 9MM 125 gr. RN Blue Bullets and have some 125 TC Blues on the way.
I also use a Dillon XL650 with Lee and Lyman Dies
I will be using the same weight bullet and same powder charge as I am using with the RN so it will be interesting to see the results.
Just note that Flat Pointed Bullets do seat deeper into the case and pressure will be higher. You might want to start low and work up again.
I recently changed from Acme 135 RN to Blue 135 TC. My push test increased the max OAL from 1.145” to 1.172”, while keeping nearly identical seating depth of 0.243”. The coated Acme bullets are .001” bigger in diameter, which may be hitting the free bore, I can’t be sure. . Now I can load Win 231 powder to 1.150” OAL using published data, rather than testing loads on a ladder.
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The coated Acme bullets are .001” bigger in diameter, which may be hitting the free bore...
• Well, as explained in the Max OAL instructions you may need to sand off several thou of diameter to be sure.
Now I can load Win 231 powder to 1.150” OAL using published data, rather than testing loads on a ladder.
• That statement doesn't make sense. "load W231 to 1.150 OAL"... You mean use an OAL of 1.150 ?? You'd hardly want to do that. You'll get much better results with deeper seating.
"...rather that testing loads on a ladder..." You always want to test your cartridges with incremental loadings (aka 'ladder loads') because that's how you tune your cartridge to the pistol, and get the most out of it.
• You've found the physical limits on OAL, but if 1.150" is the recipe length then you need a new recipe. There is lots of load data out there for W231 and/or HP-38 with OALs less than 1.100" and you want to find them. This because you want to seat that bullet around 1.130" for best performance.
Don't trust me on this. Load some at 1.150" and some at 1.130" and shoot 2 different targets from a rest or sand bag. You'll see. It's a fairly dramatic difference.
;)
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Thanks Wobbly! I did mean 1.172. I sanded the coating finish down on the Acmes and it had a small effect in my SP-01. I’ll try the 1.130” length with a ladder load work up too. Plenty of time to reload now - no matches for at least another week.
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FWIW - I went to the Blues TC from their RN when I bought a CZ75. It allowed me to run a longer COAL than I could otherwise. Without the TC the rounds had to be seated more deeply than I liked so that I could use the same 9mm ammo in all of my 9's.
Since then I switched to ACME's RN. Their profile shape has worked well for me without going too short. Side benefit is that no more smurf fingers and my bullet collator doesn't have t be cleaned as often from blue dust buildup.
Accuracy was good (enough for me at least which is only to 25yrds) with either profile in the Blues or the ACME. I do run bunny fart loads (arthritis).
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• You've found the physical limits on OAL, but if 1.150" is the recipe length then you need a new recipe. There is lots of load data out there for W231 and/or HP-38 with OALs less than 1.100" and you want to find them. This because you want to seat that bullet around 1.130" for best performance.
Did you check this thread out ?? ...
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=96152.msg739645#msg739645
;)
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I did get my Dillon 9MM dies and installed them. After initial set up I loaded 20 rounds of Blue Bullets 125gr TC and went to the range. No issue with my Shadow2 or Glock19.4. Plunk testing on the Shadow2 indicated a 1.300" OAL. I used the S2 for the plunk test as that has the tightest tolerances and at this time I am not loading gun specific reloads. I did my shooting at 7 yds. freehand and was pleased with the results. I will load some more to verify and than do some adjusting on powder and using a rest to see if I can improve the results.
Wobbly thanks for all your info and thanks to everyone else for the same.
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Please forgive the off-topic bunny trail
Wobbly, thanks for the info on the seating die. Until a year ago I was loading on a Lee Classic Turret press which I think did a good job. I came across a basket case Dillon 650 that had been sitting in a guys garage for about 8 years. It was set up for 45 ACP and had powder and primers in it as well as rust and dries grease in the pins. I disassembled it, cleaned, removed rust, lubed and reassembled.
Bob -
The 650 is a great machine. Mine has given me a lot of pleasure. There are several inexpensive accessories that are so good, they are almost "must haves" for this machine. You might put these on the birthday list...
• UFO LED lighting kit by KMS Squared (Amazon)
• Spent Primer Chute by UniqueTek (http://uniquetek.com/product/T1346-650)
• Primer Switch by seller Snowshooze (only on Ebay HERE (https://www.ebay.com/str/snowshooze?_trksid=p2047675.l2563))
(This guy makes the VERY best 650/750 accessories. Always check him first, especially for bearings.)
• Specialty Seating Anvils individually made for your precise bullet by yours truly.
(https://i.imgur.com/oUmwIxR.jpg)
Hope this helps.
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Please forgive the off-topic bunny trail
Wobbly, thanks for the info on the seating die. Until a year ago I was loading on a Lee Classic Turret press which I think did a good job. I came across a basket case Dillon 650 that had been sitting in a guys garage for about 8 years. It was set up for 45 ACP and had powder and primers in it as well as rust and dries grease in the pins. I disassembled it, cleaned, removed rust, lubed and reassembled.
Bob -
The 650 is a great machine. Mine has given me a lot of pleasure. There are several inexpensive accessories that are so good, they are almost "must haves" for this machine. You might put these on the birthday list...
• UFO LED lighting kit by KMS Squared (Amazon)
• Spent Primer Chute by UniqueTek (http://uniquetek.com/product/T1346-650)
• Primer Switch by seller Snowshooze (only on Ebay HERE (https://www.ebay.com/str/snowshooze?_trksid=p2047675.l2563))
(This guy makes the VERY best 650/750 accessories. Always check him first, especially for bearings.)
• Specialty Seating Anvils individually made for your precise bullet by yours truly.
(https://i.imgur.com/oUmwIxR.jpg)
Hope this helps.
Thanks for the accessory info. I have the light and it is a must have. I will keep the anvils in mind.