The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ Polymer Pistols: P10, P-07, P-09 => Topic started by: 1911P07 on February 28, 2023, 10:26:16 PM
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So I have a relatively new Cz p-07. I have only put a couple hundred rounds through it but have, u fortunately, already experienced 2 failures of the failure to go into battery type. The reason I’m posting is because the failures seem strange to me. The round is in the chamber but the slide fails to go into battery because it seems like the round snuck in front of the extractor and the slide doesn’t have enough umph to push around it. Is this the result of limp wristing? Magazine issue? (They seem fine other than one of them having a rattle when at max capacity due to a loose round) any ideas?
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What ammo, brand and grain, are you using? Have you tried different ammo? Are you sure the ammo is fully seated in the chamber? Some ammo can have out of spec rounds that will not fully seat. Definitely a different issue.
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The issue happened with both armscor and pmc bronze fmj 115 grain. Come to think of it, I am likely mistaken. I was able to clear the “trouble” round by racking the slide so the extractor must have been grabbing it (my apologies). After an attempted shot, I notice the slide is not completely into battery and there is a small gap remaining where I can see the brass of the round sitting in the chamber. A stout rap on the back of the slide does not force it into battery so I drop the magazine, clear the live round by racking the slide, re insert magazine, finish firing the rest of the 15 round magazine, pick the live round up off the ground, clean it off, reinsert into magazine, it loads and fires without a hitch! So I think I was wrong initially about the extractor blocking closure but I am still concerned about these failures and what they may indicate!
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Maybe I am not staying on top of cleaning as well as I should be though, like I said, it was brand new a week ago and has maybe a couple/few hundred Rounds through it. I have field stripped and deep cleaned it once. It is well lubed. I just don’t like to see any failures and want to be sure of how to address them…
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You may have limp wristed the gun and you may have experienced a couple out of spec rounds of ammo. As to being able to see the brass case in the chamber it is completely normal to be able to see some of the case from the right side of the slide/barrel on the P-07.
Clean it, lube it and try another brand of ammo and see how it does.
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You bring up an interesting point. Maybe it was fine and I thought it was out of battery (not used to being able to see into the breach while in battery) maybe it was a light strike? I never checked the primer to see if there were any markings. I will clean and lube and get at it again! I will say this though, I had the exact same “click, no bang” experience (with pmc brass fmj) on my very first magazine with the gun fresh from the box (had not done anything to it other than remove it from the box, load it and shoot! Seemed like it had grease on it so figured I was good to go).
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CZ's can tend to be very "gooped up" out of the box and really should be cleaned of the shipping lube before use.
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I have since cleaned the grease off , cleaned and lubed the firearm (ballistol and hoppes gun oil). Mine came with a black barrel, a red plastic patch loop and what seems to be black nylon/ metal bore brush. I do not currently have a 9mm jag or any other bore cleaning instruments that did not come with the gun. Should I invest in a copper/brass bore brush? I plan on getting a jag for it but I was curious if I should avoid a brass bore brush and only use the black one it came with to try and avoid any metallic fouling in the bore from a different brush?
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First if the cartridge's rim is NOT BEHIND the extractor, I would not tap the slide forward. This will eventually ruin the extractor.
Second thing is to PULL the extractor and clean out the channel and under the extractor. If you somehow don't do this, at least use some brake cleaner and clean it out the best you can.
Then go shoot and see.
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That grease is more of a preservative for them for shipping overseas and sitting in a warehouse for a couple years. I always clean them really good before the first time out and then just use oil for lube. When they get good and broke in I can use a very light coat of gun grease if I want to. For cleaning I have a brass bore brush is needed but use old used brass brushes as a jag for cleaning. I use a 22 brush for cleaning my 9's and a 9 brush for cleaning my 45's. I just put the cleaning patch over the undersized brush and push through the bore with solvent on it and a clean one the same way. And use a brass brush if there is stubborn crud in it. I shoot cast TEK coated bullets. Grease in a new tight gun can slow down the slide pretty bad and especially on a cold day.
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The P07 tends to run without being perfectly clean from what I have seen. You are using two brands of ammo so that is a good factor. Next time it does it maybe take a couple pictures if what you see and post so that we can better understand what is actually happening. Seems you are not very sure and that is a little confusing. If your P07 is really having this much trouble running, a trip back to CZ would be the best bet.
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I've used brass brushes for decades. No issues.
I only recently started using a jag and only on the pistols. Seems to do okay. You can get plastic jags on line or at guns/sports stores that sell cleaning equipment.
Two hundred rounds is basically brand new. Should not be a recoil spring issue. Should not be a hammer spring issue (failure to fire in SA or DA).
Often, here, people will say it takes around 500 rounds to break in some CZs. I've not had that issue but I understand it can happen.
Where the rounds hard to remove from the barrel? If so it could mean those two rounds were a bit "long" and the bullet made contact with the barrel metal near the start of the rifling and therefore didn't fully chamber. If that happened it could be that the hammer just didn't hit the primer hard enough to set it off. Some CZ pistols have a geometry/fit of the parts that means the hammer just can't hit that firing pin very hard unless the slide is completely forward.
Could be an issue, too, where the brass and chamber rubbed/dragged enough to keep it from completely chambering the round. Sometimes it doesn't take much, between lubrication, how clean the gun is, parts of the pistol still not broken in well (contact surfaces worn smooth together through dry firing, firing or polishing of the parts contact surfaces.
Wobbly has a bunch of good diagrams showing some of the problems with cartridges/bullets that can cause a pistol to fail to fully chamber a round.
One other thing is your magazines. Is this happening with both magazines (I know, only twice in 200 rounds) but it's something you need to be aware of is that magazines can be an issue. A lot of people ID/number their magazines so if they have repeating issues they can determine if it happens with all of them or only one of them. If it only happens with one magazine that one needs to be pulled from use and replaced. Sometimes you can "fix" that problem magazine with a good cleaning, a new spring, replacing the follower. Sometimes it's something about the feed lips at the top and you have to make a choice of discarding that magazine or trying to modify it to make it work.
Good luck with it.
The question about how much of the brass is normal to see is in this picture. My P07 .40. If you look you can barely see a thin slice of the shiny brass rim between the back of the barrel and the slide. More than that and the slide is not fully forward.
(https://i.imgur.com/MfrA1hYl.jpg)
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The gun is running great other than those two malfunctions. My first thought was that maybe the magazine that has a rattle (loose cartridge about halfway down) when fully loaded was the culprit though after some light research, I discovered this is a relatively common issue with double stack magazines and rarely (if ever) affects the function of the firearm. Could a poorly seated round (in the magazine) cause this issue? I could see if maybe it was seated too far forward in the mag once some rounds were discharged and it came back under tension that could very likely cause the issue I’m having. My confusion comes from the fact that the live round ejects when racking the slide and this would not happen if it was in front of the ejector…correct? After seeing that picture (thank you!) I do believe that my slide isn’t fully forward when this happens.
It was recommended I remove and clean the external extractor. I am aware of how to do this but I heard that the extractor is staked and could need restaking?? I don’t know what this means or how to go about doing it. I am aware of the pin that holds it in and how to remove it but is it being staked something else? This brings me to another curious thing I noticed after taking down the slide. On the internal side of the slide, there are ding marks around where the extractor pin goes almost like some banged it up trying to get a pin in/out (trying to post pic, guess I need to use a website link?)
One more thing I wanted to address. I read comments about CZ sending pictures of the factory test grouping made with a newly purchased firearm. I did not receive one of these. Is this an old practice or is there something awry with my firearm purchase? I ordered it brand new from a local FFL and had to wait nearly a week for it to even arrive (two day shipping turned into 6!!).
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I would not remove the extractor on a new gun as it is unlikely that there is any crud accumulated in there yet. TWO malfunctions like you describe are really not a reason to start taking things apart.
Yes it's normal for some mags to rattle and I have many that do but function perfectly. As to the test target I have not seen one in several years. Personally I think they stopped shipping them because too many people took them as an indication of accuracy when they were really only meant as a function test.
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Yea well thanks for the help everyone. I give up trying to post a pic for now. I’m hoping this is all just due to a break in period and proper lube/cleaning. We shall see I guess!!
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I forgot to mention I also fired a mag of Phoenix ms JHP through it with zero issues. I will be cleaning it thoroughly and trying to maybe polish the feed ramp without going crazy and removing any of the barrel finish that is also on the ramp.
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I forgot to mention I also fired a mag of Phoenix ms JHP through it with zero issues. I will be cleaning it thoroughly and trying to maybe polish the feed ramp without going crazy and removing any of the barrel finish that is also on the ramp.
I would refrain from any modifications such as polishing and removing any finish until you have completely cleaned and lubed the gun [I use Hornady one shot] , otherwise the Factory may refuse your possible pending warranty request.
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I just wanted to report That I just put a quick box of armscor through it (FMJ,50 rounds…I shoot at my house). With no difficulties whatsoever. In fact, it was a smooth operator and a joy to shoot. About 2 inch group at around 25 yards….I like this gun very much!!!
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Right…I don’t plan on taking a dremel to it or anything, just a good cleaning. I really hope it’s just a matter of break in or something simple. I guess I’ll just keep it clean and lubed, keep shooting and see what happens!
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I use bronze bore brushes and zinc-coated brass jags on the barrels of my P-07's. After a range trip, I soak them in a jar of Hoppes #9 bore solvent for many hours, usually overnight, to help remove carbon and copper fouling. My barrels are in pretty decent shape, each having a few thousand rounds through them. I have an inexpensive bore scope I ordered off of Amazon to check my cleaning work and the condition of the bores.
Personally I think the nylon bore brush that comes with the P-07, and nylon bore brushes in general, are bordering on worthless. I have some and will occasionally use them when the barrel has Hoppes solvent or some other copper remover that will react to bronze brushes. They really don't do much, compared to a bronze brush. On the other hand, the slotted bore cleaning rod that comes with the P-07 works just fine with patch cloths. It's not a jag but it works. I also use mine to retrieve my barrels out of a jar of Hoppes solvent.
I have removed my extractors and cleaned behind them on both pistols, but I wouldn't bother with that until you have at least 1-2K rounds though it. One thing to keep in mind is that you don't want any wet lube in there as it will goop it up more quickly. Spraying it out with brake cleaner or similar is probably not a bad idea, but it isn't going to get all of the goop out. When I have removed the extractors in the past, to clean them and the extractor channel, I have spent quite a bit of time and effort removing the carbon / powder deposits out of there.
I never had any out-of-battery issues with my P-07's. I can induce light strikes with Russian ammo using my CGW 15 lb hammer spring, and I can cause a failure-to-eject by dropping the mag and firing the round in the chamber, but otherwise my guns run flawlessly no matter what. Well I also found a compatibility issue with one obscure type of ammo. Really though these guns are solid performers overall.
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I forgot to mention, the only time I don't use a brass bore brush is when using the Bore Tech copper fouling remover. The label says that stuff will "eat" up the brass brush and the recommend nylon brushes when using that bore cleaner.
But, other than that I'm with CCWLearner. Nylon brushes just don't seem to get the crud broken loose nearly as quickly as a good brass brush.
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I mentioned something earlier and wanted to be clear about it if possible. Is the extractor pin on the p07 staked from the factory? If so, will removing it (in the future) mean I would have to find some way to restake it upon reassembly? Thanks for any advice.
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I mentioned something earlier and wanted to be clear about it if possible. Is the extractor pin on the p07 staked from the factory? If so, will removing it (in the future) mean I would have to find some way to restake it upon reassembly? Thanks for any advice.
It is lightly staked from the bottom of the slide. If you remove it you must lightly re-stake it. All that is needed is to give the hole a little wack off center with a punch after the pin is installed. It's no big deal at all.
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I give up trying to post a pic for now.
When in doubt, read the instructions..... HERE (https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=93202.0).
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I mentioned something earlier and wanted to be clear about it if possible. Is the extractor pin on the p07 staked from the factory? If so, will removing it (in the future) mean I would have to find some way to restake it upon reassembly? Thanks for any advice.
It is lightly staked from the bottom of the slide. If you remove it you must lightly re-stake it. All that is needed is to give the hole a little wack off center with a punch after the pin is installed. It's no big deal at all.
So hold the punch at an angle with the tip of the punch in the roll pin hole and whack or place the punch on one of the sides of the roll pin straight up and down and whack?
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I give up trying to post a pic for now.
When in doubt, read the instructions..... HERE (https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=93202.0).
Thank you for the link but I have already been there and before going there had attempted google pics then did some research and read that IMGUR is not what it used to be for photo storage. I then had to go to work. Good story, I know.
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So hold the punch at an angle with the tip of the punch in the roll pin hole and whack or place the punch on one of the sides of the roll pin straight up and down and whack?
First of all it is a solid pin not a roll pin. Just peen the edge of the pin hole over so the pin can't work it's way out. If you look at the pin from the underside of the slide you will see exactly how it looks from the factory. It does not take much.
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First of all it is a solid pin not a roll pin. Just peen the edge of the pin hole over so the pin can't work it's way out. If you look at the pin from the underside of the slide you will see exactly how it looks from the factory. It does not take much.
Gotcha. So that explains the “marring” on underside of slide I was slightly concerned about (mostly because I watched a YouTube video on disassembly and the guy in the videos slide looked fine.) thanks for the help!
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The mag rattle is normal. Remove the barrel, clean it, and plunk test your ammo. Each round should fall into the chamber, spin freely and fall back out when the barrel is tipped over. If it doesn't, out of spec ammo is the likely culprit.
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Ok, so after a lot of thought and inspection of my p07 I have a theory as to what the issue was. I now believe it was a failure to fire because it would have been painfully obvious from the rear if my slide was out of battery even a little bit. I may be completely off base with this so don’t beat me up too badly. While examining the trigger and slide with the slide removed from the frame, I watched the piece that raises up to press on the firing pin safety block in both DA and SA (protecting the hammer from striking the frame of course). I noticed that it is technically possible (i think) to release the hammer with a trigger pull before that piece is at its fully raised position. It does not reach fully raised position until the trigger is pulled all the way back. Now the difference between the max height and the height at hammer release is pretty small. I have read a couple people on the internet say they had FTF issues in single action but not DA. My theory is maybe I was pulling the trigger very slowly (sometimes I do this)and maybe didn’t pull it all the way back, releasing the hammer but not depressing the safety block enough to release the firing pin. This would happen more often in SA than DA because the force required to pull the DA trigger to breaking point would carry the trigger all the way back after the shot breaks. Again, I could be completely wrong about this but I thought it was at least interesting enough to post.
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Ok, so after a lot of thought and inspection of my p07 I have a theory as to what the issue was. I now believe it was a failure to fire because it would have been painfully obvious from the rear if my slide was out of battery even a little bit. I may be completely off base with this so don’t beat me up too badly. While examining the trigger and slide with the slide removed from the frame, I watched the piece that raises up to press on the firing pin safety block in both DA and SA (protecting the hammer from striking the frame of course). I noticed that it is technically possible (i think) to release the hammer with a trigger pull before that piece is at its fully raised position. It does not reach fully raised position until the trigger is pulled all the way back. Now the difference between the max height and the height at hammer release is pretty small. I have read a couple people on the internet say they had FTF issues in single action but not DA. My theory is maybe I was pulling the trigger very slowly (sometimes I do this)and maybe didn’t pull it all the way back, releasing the hammer but not depressing the safety block enough to release the firing pin. This would happen more often in SA than DA because the force required to pull the DA trigger to breaking point would carry the trigger all the way back after the shot breaks. Again, I could be completely wrong about this but I thought it was at least interesting enough to post.
Nevermind. I put gun back together and tested at what point the pin is free during the trigger pull and is free even before the hammer is released. Probably just some bad ammo…thanks for all the advice everyone.
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Ok, so after a lot of thought and inspection of my p07 I have a theory as to what the issue was. I now believe it was a failure to fire because it would have been painfully obvious from the rear if my slide was out of battery even a little bit. I may be completely off base with this so don’t beat me up too badly. While examining the trigger and slide with the slide removed from the frame, I watched the piece that raises up to press on the firing pin safety block in both DA and SA (protecting the hammer from striking the frame of course). I noticed that it is technically possible (i think) to release the hammer with a trigger pull before that piece is at its fully raised position. It does not reach fully raised position until the trigger is pulled all the way back. Now the difference between the max height and the height at hammer release is pretty small. I have read a couple people on the internet say they had FTF issues in single action but not DA. My theory is maybe I was pulling the trigger very slowly (sometimes I do this)and maybe didn’t pull it all the way back, releasing the hammer but not depressing the safety block enough to release the firing pin. This would happen more often in SA than DA because the force required to pull the DA trigger to breaking point would carry the trigger all the way back after the shot breaks. Again, I could be completely wrong about this but I thought it was at least interesting enough to post.
Nevermind. I put gun back together and tested at what point the pin is free during the trigger pull and is free even before the hammer is released. Probably just some bad ammo…thanks for all the advice everyone.
What you describe would actually be a timing issue and if that were truly present you would have many more and pretty consistent failures. I think you're good to go at this point.
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Just wanted to report that I have since put a few hundred rounds more through my P07 since I originally posted about the failures. I have had NO MORE issues and I have even shot some hollow points through it. I am very happy with the P07!
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So my “strange failure” (not really) happened again yesterday. This time I took the time to really pay attention to what had happened rather than getting flustered and trying to clear it as fast as possible. It is a simple failure to go into battery. Seems as if the slide doesn’t have enough umph, is hanging up somewhere or a combination of both and won’t move the last half inch required to be in battery. Pushing the slide forward with a little force snaps the slide into battery and I can continue firing with no more issues. This has now happened a total of 3 times and I am approaching 1000 rounds. My question now is: is there a certain area where the slide meets the frame that can traditionally cause a little more friction than necessary? I keep it well lubed but it could use a cleaning. I am aware that it may also just be a limp wristing case. I admittedly was fiddling with my grip when this happened. I’ve noticed when taking the slide down there is some resistance in removing the slide even with the hammer in half cock so I was just curious if there is an area I could polish to solve this issue. Thanks in advance!
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So my “strange failure” (not really) happened again yesterday. This time I took the time to really pay attention to what had happened rather than getting flustered and trying to clear it as fast as possible. It is a simple failure to go into battery. Seems as if the slide doesn’t have enough umph, is hanging up somewhere or a combination of both and won’t move the last half inch required to be in battery. Pushing the slide forward with a little force snaps the slide into battery and I can continue firing with no more issues. This has now happened a total of 3 times and I am approaching 1000 rounds. My question now is: is there a certain area where the slide meets the frame that can traditionally cause a little more friction than necessary?
It's the ammo !!
The ammo is not usually an issue, but the clearances to the chamber are on the order of 0.002"... which is smaller than the dia of a human hair. So you don't really need to be too far out-of-bounds before trouble occurs. And you certainly can't see the danger areas !!
I highly suggest you READ THIS (https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=114236.0) before you get hurt.
Even "reputable" ammo makers like SIG and Fiocchi are having trouble.
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It's the ammo !!
The ammo is not usually an issue, but the clearances to the chamber are on the order of 0.002"... which is smaller than the dia of a human hair. So you don't really need to be too far out-of-bounds before trouble occurs. And you certainly can't see the danger areas !!
I highly suggest you READ THIS (https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=114236.0) before you get hurt.
Even "reputable" ammo makers like SIG and Fiocchi are having trouble.
Ok, I read it. Thank you for the help. I will say that it does not seem to be an issue of casing size as it was not “tight” in the chamber and ejected with no issue so an anemic load not supplying enough blow back to cycle the action fully then? I will do an ammo drop in test with a box of the PMC bronze that was the offender (with my barrel removed from the slide obviously). thanks again!
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Ok, I read it. Thank you for the help. I will say that it does not seem to be an issue of casing size as it was not “tight” in the chamber and ejected with no issue so an anemic load not supplying enough blow back to cycle the action fully then? I will do an ammo drop in test with a box of the PMC bronze that was the offender (with my barrel removed from the slide obviously). Thanks again!
Ammo companies have rushed to fill the mega-void created by the Ukraine War and US shortages. Traditionally the issues were in physical size, but we are also seeing under-loaded cartridges and other ammo making issues. All of them not-so-obvious.
The best gauge for under-loading is how far the spent case is thrown. It should be on the order of 6 to 8 feet.
And it's always good to remember that your CZ was only designed and tested with FMJ. When you shoot lead projectiles, JHP, conical, flat point, plated... whatever... you're on your own.
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Ok, I read it. Thank you for the help. I will say that it does not seem to be an issue of casing size as it was not “tight” in the chamber and ejected with no issue so an anemic load not supplying enough blow back to cycle the action fully then? I will do an ammo drop in test with a box of the PMC bronze that was the offender (with my barrel removed from the slide obviously). Thanks again!
Ammo companies have rushed to fill the mega-void created by the Ukraine War and US shortages. Traditionally the issues were in physical size, but we are also seeing under-loaded cartridges and other ammo making issues. All of them not-so-obvious.
The best gauge for under-loading is how far the spent case is thrown. It should be on the order of 6 to 8 feet.
And it's always good to remember that your CZ was only designed and tested with FMJ. When you shoot lead projectiles, JHP, conical, flat point, plated... whatever... you're on your own.
I have only had the battery failure with brass cased fmj. The hollow points I have fired (around 150 rounds all cheap Phoenix ms 123 grain JHP) have all fed perfectly. I have noticed some casings falling right at my feet a few times though with the fmj.
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I have noticed some casings falling right at my feet a few times though with the fmj.
And there's your root issue. Either....
• The ammo is under-powered, because the maker is skimping on the powder (the old Remington UMC was famous for this), OR
• The handgun itself has too much internal friction. This could be for 2 reasons...
- This could be a new gun that hasn't been "broken-in" and has parts that need to be simply run more. It is a common issue on 1 out of every ~25 CZ's. Read THIS (https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=120249.0).
- This could be that the gun lubricant you are using is more "slick advertising" than slick lubricant. All you need is SYNTHETIC 0W20 automotive motor oil. Place: 1 drop on each rail, 1 drop on the barrel bush, 1 drop into the hammer group.
Either way, you need to shoot the gun more with a variety of ammo.
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I’ve been using hoppes elite gun oil. I also have a little container of rem oil that I’ve only used on an old Winchester model 190 22lr. The hoppes claims that it repels dirt and carbon…haha. This is certainly not the case from my personal experience. I was just using ballistol as an all around everything (CLP). Anyway, I may try the motor oil. I know for the most part oil is oil as long as comparing synthetic to synthetic but I will ask anyway…any particular brand? My thought is to buy the absolute cheapest quart of full synthetic 0w20 I can find. I have always liked the idea of using motor oil as it is produced to meet much higher temperature and friction demands than a firearm can produce and must therefore be able to easily handle anything in the realm of gun lubrication. The only potential concern I would have is motor oil interacting with the polymer frame of the p07. It is generally not produced with polymer in mind (though some oil soluble polymers are added to some motor oils) so this is another reason I ask which brand you may have experience with that has not posed any issue with polymers.
Edit: I was just thinking and anything that spends the majority of its life in a plastic bottle can’t possibly be bad for polymer…right?!…ha!
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I used 3n1 oil for a long time, still do every now and then.
Around 2004 or 2005 I started using Mobil 1. Works great on all the rifles, shotguns and pistols.