The Original CZ Forum

GENERAL => A Day at the Range! => Topic started by: armoredman on July 25, 2010, 08:30:49 PM

Title: 25 yards?
Post by: armoredman on July 25, 2010, 08:30:49 PM
A poster on another board stated he gets sub 1 inch groups at 25 yards with his CZ pistols. Lacking a Ransom Rest or simple sand bags, I am not likely to replicate this feat, :o, but next time I get out there, I will see how well I CAN do at 25 yards with a couple of pistols, probably P01, PCR and maybe the venerable Smith Model 10 for flavor. ;D All will be shot standing, two hand hold.

Anyone here get 1" at 25 yards with thier CZ pistols?
Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: dusty10 on July 25, 2010, 10:23:46 PM
1" group at 25 yards standing and not leaning or resting against anything is some pretty fancy shooting boss.  Whoever can do that should think about turning pro.  ;D
Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: AZ_CZ on July 25, 2010, 10:25:33 PM
Quote from: armoredman on July 25, 2010, 08:30:49 PM
A poster on another board stated he gets sub 1 inch groups at 25 yards with his CZ pistols. Lacking a Ransom Rest or simple sand bags, I am not likely to replicate this feat, :o, but next time I get out there, I will see how well I CAN do at 25 yards with a couple of pistols, probably P01, PCR and maybe the venerable Smith Model 10 for flavor. ;D All will be shot standing, two hand hold.

Anyone here get 1" at 25 yards with thier CZ pistols?

Only with 1 shot groups  ;)  With my 75B and PCR I can keep them in 4" and that's all I really try for. With my kadet 2" +or-. That's standing, 2 hand hold. These days it's a choice tilt head down; see target, tilt head up: see the sights.
Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: Road Dawg on July 25, 2010, 10:49:39 PM
Quote
Anyone here get 1" at 25 yards with thier CZ pistols?

Yes, on occassion and if I'm on my game.  Although it's work with the CZs trigger mechanism, and due to its design you'll never get a glass-like trigger break no matter what you do.  I can generally put fifty rounds into two inches at twentyfive yards, with a flier or two.  Now if this cyberworthy on the other forum claims he's getting sub-moa groups on a routine basis I'd have to say I'm smelling something of a fecal nature.  Go inhabit a few rifle forums and you'll find people who claim they achieve one minute of angle with every rifle they own, with whatever old surplus ammo they happen to be shooting.  In reality I doubt most of them really know what MOA means.  My FAL is my hands-down favorite go-to rifle, but my groups tend to range in the three-inch area, and that increases once the rifle starts to heat up.  Does that mean it's worthless?  Not at all, that means it's working within its design parameters.  On those same forums I see people claiming one MOA out of their Century Arms FAL, firing Pakistani surplus ammo.  Again, I'm smellin' somethin'.

Getting back to the CZ: I can do that, but not all the time.  I participate in an informal bullseye league on Monday nights, so I'm familiar with the proccess of precision shooting and normally come in at first or second place amongst our 25-30 shooters.  My main guns for that exercise are either a Colt 1911 or an S&W Model 29 with a 6.5 inch barrel.  I can give you one-inch groups with either of those weapons all day long with their standard loads, but the CZ is more of a challenge.  I've used my Pre-B during one Monday night meet just for giggles, and managed to score a 495 out of a possible 500.  So yes, it's possible but not routinely probable.

Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: jameslovesjammie on July 27, 2010, 04:59:48 AM
For me there are several ways to shoot a better group at 25 yardsl

1.  A proper Bullseye style target. It is very difficult for me to shoot a decent group with a "body" target.
 
2.  A 6 o'clock hold.

3.  Slow breathing and heartbeat

4.  Lock the elbows and push your shoulders as far forward as you can (the exact opposite that you are supposed to do when shooting "tactical")  Let the recoil roll you and take your time.
Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: armoredman on July 28, 2010, 05:50:32 PM
OK, here's what we have. Two sidearms, CZ P01, with three different loads, and Smith Model 10-8 with one load. Let's get rockin'.

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/range%20trip/P01at25yardsCZshirt.jpg)

Well, I wanted to, but I picked a bad day to go. Sun was hidden, lower temperatures, but I found the Gnat Family reunion spot. Do you know your sight picture changes when a gnat lands on your front sight? I had to keep the camera shut down most of the time - didn't want a gnat inside the lens cover! I had forgotten how much I hate those little things.

I always post true pics/targets, so here we have some interesting groups. First, my venerable Smith 38 Spl 4", great revolver. I can definitely hit what I am aiming at this way.

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/range%20trip/P01at25yardsSmithtarget.jpg)

What does my lifeline, my companion, my P01 do for me?

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/range%20trip/P01at25yards.jpg)

What the heck is that....same load shown here...

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/range%20trip/P01at25yards2.jpg)

Different load/bullet. Different target, trying lower ink use stuff.

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/range%20trip/P01at25yards3.jpg)


Not bad, I can score Expert on my Department range with it. :)

So what now? Have some ammo left over, let's do something ridiculous, something I haven't done in a long time. Mad Minute. OK, not really, I don't want to keep shooting for a full minute, and I don't have a soft carpet to let my ejected magazines fall on. Yes, I do try to keep them nice.;)
I recently applied to get my Smith on the carry roster for work, so let's practice some reloads. I haven't done the Ayoob revolver reload drill in a long time, was surprised it came back so easily. I got set up to shoot as fast as I could at a target, just for kicks.Now, this is what I was shooting at. You MAY notice something odd...

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/range%20trip/blueB27.jpg)

That's right, a BLUE B27. Go figure, FFL ordered them by mistake.

So fire rapid fire, reload, dump the cylinder, etc. Not nearly as impressive. So, then I dump a few mag fulls from the P01. The last shots not taped up are the 124 gr cast LRN load this little gun likes.

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/range%20trip/madminute.jpg)

Not NEARLY as good, but this wasn't bullseye work!. :D But it was fun!

Oh, rounds fired, 88 from the P01, 70 from the Smith. No malfunctions in the P01, slow or rapid fire, cast or jacketed. Was very disappointed when the lighter hammer fall of double action on the Smith and Wesson 10-8 failed to set off some CCI primers in these older, (2007), 38 Special reloads. Need to go casting tomorrow and get a new batch worked up.

But, there you go, 25 yard workout today. 8)


Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: jameslovesjammie on July 29, 2010, 03:53:10 PM
Try 2.8-3.0 grains of Bullseye with a 148 grain wadcutter in that .38 special seated flush with the case with a slight roll crimp over the top.  You won't be disappointed.
Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: BigK on July 29, 2010, 07:48:28 PM
Quote from: Road Dawg on July 25, 2010, 10:49:39 PM
I can generally put fifty rounds into two inches at twentyfive yards, with a flier or two.

Road Dawg, you would undeniably turn every head at the local public range I go to. That is darned impressive.

On my better days, I get 2" groups on bull at 5 yds and 4" groups on bull at 10 yds and 8" groups at 15 yds the with my P-01. That usually satisfies me and earns me a "way to go" from the RSO's and shooters near by. Then again, it's a public range and the better shooters seem to hate the range I go to, b/c it's run by the state (hunter education shooting range).

They don't even have a 25 yd target at the pistol range, but I'd be lucky to hit the 2' X 3' carboard at that distance.
Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: Road Dawg on July 29, 2010, 09:39:09 PM
Thanks BigK.  Lest you get too impressed I will admit it's just something I have a nack for, it would be more impressive if I really had to spend time working at it.  We all have things we do well and that just happens to be one of mine, although my middle-aged eyes are making me work harder for it these days.  ;D  During our last quarterly qualification I told my Captain, "I'll bet you breakfast."  He grinned and replied, "Oh no, I'm not falling for that one!"

I was at my local indoor range last week shooting my .44 magnum with some full power loads.  After I was done I walked out into the gun store in front of the shop, and an older gentleman who had been watching through the plate glass window asked me what I'd been shooting.  After I told him he stated, "You sure were hitting what you were aiming at.  I've never seen anyone shoot that far out there."  While I thanked the old boy I had to mentally shake my head, twentyfive yards is "way out there"?  With a gun like that shooting starts at twentyfive but doesn't really get going until seventyfive or a hundred yards.  People have become so conditioned to think handguns are only for ranges of ten yards or under that they're really doing themselves a disservice but not building their skill set.
Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: myk3e on August 16, 2010, 11:28:26 PM
Not trying to be a smart guy but that looks more like 25ft rather than 25yds












Edit for language, :)
Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: armoredman on August 16, 2010, 11:35:59 PM
The blue B-27? That was at 10 yards, I moved it in for Mad Minute.  ;D The end of the pistol bay is 25 yards, that's where I was doing the distance shooting, see the first picture. I never lie about distances, one lie and you are never believed ever again, isn't worth it. :o
Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: drnickels on September 06, 2010, 08:17:41 PM
I can unload 20 rounds from my Shadow at 25 yds on a body style target and put all 20 in within the C zone on the target at rapid fire.

I can score all A's in those 20 rounds with controlled fire. I am used to run and gun style shooting, but can shoot extremely accurately when required to, but I say how realistic is shooting controlled slow shots in a real life situation? This is why I dislike Glock style matches or pistol games like that. They just aren't realistic training for me. I prefer moving and shooting from cover at multiple targets at multiple distances and with hostage targets. It's just better training for what I carry for: to defend myself.

Others share a different opinion and that's OK, but I got into pistol competitions to become a better practical situation and be sure I am proficient with my CCW gun.

Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: Road Dawg on September 07, 2010, 06:44:06 PM
Quote
but I say how realistic is shooting controlled slow shots in a real life situation?

And I say you should add that type of shooting to your repitoire because it's one more tool in the box, and I for one believe in having a full tool box.
Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: armoredman on September 08, 2010, 12:02:39 AM
I never try to blow smoke, that's why I posted my targets.  ;D I am certainly no supershooter, but I know I can hit minute of felon. ;)
Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: ls1man on September 08, 2010, 12:25:54 AM
Quote from: armoredman on July 28, 2010, 05:50:32 PM
OK, here's what we have. Two sidearms, CZ P01, with three different loads, and Smith Model 10-8 with one load. Let's get rockin'.

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/range%20trip/P01at25yardsCZshirt.jpg)

Well, I wanted to, but I picked a bad day to go. Sun was hidden, lower temperatures, but I found the Gnat Family reunion spot. Do you know your sight picture changes when a gnat lands on your front sight? I had to keep the camera shut down most of the time - didn't want a gnat inside the lens cover! I had forgotten how much I hate those little things.

I always post true pics/targets, so here we have some interesting groups. First, my venerable Smith 38 Spl 4", great revolver. I can definitely hit what I am aiming at this way.

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/range%20trip/P01at25yardsSmithtarget.jpg)

What does my lifeline, my companion, my P01 do for me?

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/range%20trip/P01at25yards.jpg)

What the heck is that....same load shown here...

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/range%20trip/P01at25yards2.jpg)

Different load/bullet. Different target, trying lower ink use stuff.

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/range%20trip/P01at25yards3.jpg)


Not bad, I can score Expert on my Department range with it. :)

So what now? Have some ammo left over, let's do something ridiculous, something I haven't done in a long time. Mad Minute. OK, not really, I don't want to keep shooting for a full minute, and I don't have a soft carpet to let my ejected magazines fall on. Yes, I do try to keep them nice.;)
I recently applied to get my Smith on the carry roster for work, so let's practice some reloads. I haven't done the Ayoob revolver reload drill in a long time, was surprised it came back so easily. I got set up to shoot as fast as I could at a target, just for kicks.Now, this is what I was shooting at. You MAY notice something odd...

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/range%20trip/blueB27.jpg)

That's right, a BLUE B27. Go figure, FFL ordered them by mistake.

So fire rapid fire, reload, dump the cylinder, etc. Not nearly as impressive. So, then I dump a few mag fulls from the P01. The last shots not taped up are the 124 gr cast LRN load this little gun likes.

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/range%20trip/madminute.jpg)

Not NEARLY as good, but this wasn't bullseye work!. :D But it was fun!

Oh, rounds fired, 88 from the P01, 70 from the Smith. No malfunctions in the P01, slow or rapid fire, cast or jacketed. Was very disappointed when the lighter hammer fall of double action on the Smith and Wesson 10-8 failed to set off some CCI primers in these older, (2007), 38 Special reloads. Need to go casting tomorrow and get a new batch worked up.

But, there you go, 25 yard workout today. 8)




Hi,
That is some mighty fine shooting,
As soon as I saw the first pic I was drooling.
That is the finest place to shoot I have ever seen.
That has to be the most perfect shooting range in the world.
I wish I could shoot at a place like that.
I have to drive a hour to Dallas and shoot at a indoor range.
Nothing like the fresh air open skys you have.
I envy you.
That is some of the best shooting I've seen also.
You are truly a man that has it all going your way.
Again Congrats.
 :)
Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: armoredman on September 08, 2010, 01:41:33 AM
If that's the best shooting you've ever seen, you need to get out more.  ;) I only won one shooting match, and that was with a Smith Model 64, actually. :) No matches up here, unfortunately.
As for the range, yes, yes, it truly rocks.  8)
Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: original_g on September 09, 2010, 04:14:56 PM
Here in CRO we shoot ISSF 25 meters match, to be in best 10 you need to shoot more than 90+ in precise and 85+ in rapid and targets are:

http://www.shootingwiki.org/index.php?title=ISSF_Target_25/50M_Precision_Pistol

http://www.shootingwiki.org/index.php?title=ISSF_Target_25M_Rapid_Fire_Pistol

@jameslovesjammie, you are apsolutely right, when shooting precise stance, grip, sight picture and triger control is a must

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/
Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: armoredman on September 09, 2010, 04:29:59 PM
Pardon, CRO? Might have to find a few of those targets.
Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: AZ_CZ on September 09, 2010, 09:35:16 PM
CRO ???

Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: excheck on September 09, 2010, 10:09:27 PM
OK Az you bet on the right horse.  Or you could look at 'original_g' profile and read one of his posts.

11       CZ Experts and Accessories / CZF Ask Angus / Re: CZ-USA Shipping to Europe?       on: March 14, 2010, 12:41:47 PM
I can tell you about Croatia, which is in Europe but not in EU.
We have a document issued by police that is called ?firearm purchase license?, we have it translated to English and notarized, send it to licensed merchant in US and he gets export permit.

Friend of mine got his 1911 that was 500$ for 750$ before tax in Croatia.


btw. And then another 500$ for taxes and customs. Angry
Reply
Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: armoredman on September 09, 2010, 10:56:39 PM
Ouch, lots of taxes on one gun...
 :o
Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: AZ_CZ on September 09, 2010, 11:58:05 PM
Wow cool links on the wiki site, thanks for posting them.  The section/blog on f-class was great.  I don't shoot at that level, but I enjoy reading about it! THANKS

Quote from: original_g on September 09, 2010, 04:14:56 PM
Here in CRO we shoot ISSF 25 meters match, to be in best 10 you need to shoot more than 90+ in precise and 85+ in rapid and targets are:

http://www.shootingwiki.org/index.php?title=ISSF_Target_25/50M_Precision_Pistol

http://www.shootingwiki.org/index.php?title=ISSF_Target_25M_Rapid_Fire_Pistol

@jameslovesjammie, you are apsolutely right, when shooting precise stance, grip, sight picture and triger control is a must

http://www.bullseyepistol.com/


Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: original_g on May 12, 2011, 03:16:14 PM
Sorry, CRO=Croatia ;)

In Europe it is clear what it means, you use a lot of abbreviations.
Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: Twmaster on June 13, 2011, 06:22:17 AM
Armoredman... That is a seriously nice outdoor range. The only range close enough to me for practicality is only 20 yards and indoor. I really need to work on my shooting. I recently bought my first handgun and have been going to the range as time and money allows. It's been 20 years since I've shot pistols having never owned one until last month.

Here's an example of my shooting at 10 yards (8" black part of target): (New Walther PK380, .380ACP Federal ball ammo)

(http://www.twmaster.com/stuff/walther/best.jpg)
It was bloody hot inside the range and as the time there wore on sweat in my eyes really started to take it's toll on my shooting.

I need to work on getting some ammo for my newly acquired CZ52. (read that as save up some money, unemployment sucks)
Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: Toxxyc on June 30, 2011, 06:15:15 AM
Quote from: Twmaster on June 13, 2011, 06:22:17 AM
Here's an example of my shooting at 10 yards (8" black part of target): (New Walther PK380, .380ACP Federal ball ammo)

<image>

It was bloody hot inside the range and as the time there wore on sweat in my eyes really started to take it's toll on my shooting.

I need to work on getting some ammo for my newly acquired CZ52. (read that as save up some money, unemployment sucks)

I don't know how an experienced shooter you are, so here goes:

What order did you shoot in, or don't you remember?  It seems you may be pulling the trigger instead of squeezing it, and that combined with the heat and sweat is probably what is causing the less than fortunate shooting.  Do this test:

Make your pistol safe (obviously) and remove the magazine (make it front-heavy to increase your grip strength)
Cock the hammer
Place a fattish coin on the slide just behind the front sight, upright so that it will topple when you move the pistol
Aim at a target in a safe direction (I'm sorry, I'm very safety conscious when it comes to firearms), and squeeze the trigger as you would when shooting at a real target

If the coin falls off, you're doing it wrong.  You should adjust your trigger pull so that it's still safe to carry the pistol, but not too heavy that is requires effort to squeeze off a shot.  This effort will affect the grip and twist the pistol to a certain direction, causing you to shoot inaccurately, constantly.  Practice practice practice... :)

I was taught this method constantly when I was younger, and it was drilled into my head.  Still, I get too little exercise to shoot with pinpoint accuracy constantly, and I usually get excited when the fourth or fifth bullet hits the same place, and this causes inaccuracy and idiotic shooting (literally moving from a constant 1"-3" grouping at 10 yards to a m-m-m-mammoth 5"+ grouping).
Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: JHS on July 01, 2011, 07:29:57 PM

"Place a fattish coin on the slide just behind the front sight, upright so that it will topple when you move the pistol
Aim at a target in a safe direction (I'm sorry, I'm very safety conscious when it comes to firearms), and squeeze the trigger as you would when shooting at a real target"


I am assuming you mean placing the coin on edge? Do you place the coin perpendicular to the slide or parallel?
Standing a coin on edge and keeping it that way just holding a gun I would imagine is difficult enough... never mind squeezing the trigger.

I'll have to give it a try.
Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: Twmaster on July 01, 2011, 08:04:51 PM
Interesting exercise. I doubt I could keep a coin on edge long enough to squeeze off a shot.

Went to the range again today. I'm beginning to believe trigger control is my nemesis. Here's a pic of my first three targets. One magazine each (8 rounds).

(http://www.twmaster.com/stuff/jul1.jpg)

7 yards, first-second-third magazines left to right.

I have no idea if the trigger is adjustable on this pistol. (Walther PK380)

After ensuring the pistol is indeed empty (all other reasonable safety measures employed) I cannot hold this perfectly still while squeezing the trigger in DA mode.

When in SA mode, hammer cocked I can also see the pistol move. Now, I cannot tell if the movement is before during or after pulling the trigger. I just cannot seem to get my brain to process the observation while aiming and pulling the trigger. But I do see some movement in that process.

I seem to have a better time controlling the CZ52. It's bigger and heavier than the Walther. I had not taken the CZ to the range with me today.

I need to find a good shooter locally who can help me get right.
Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: JHS on July 01, 2011, 08:07:43 PM
Okay, so i tried it with a nickel, the fattest I could find.  And as I thought just aiming the gun with a coin balancing on edge parallel to the aim is difficult, however with that said I was able to pull the trigger of my SP01 in SA without the coin falling until after the click of the hammer. Was using a 2 hand hold while the wife placed the coin on the slide. In DA, no chance. At least not yet... I can't wait till I get the trigger-worked shadow ;)
Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: fullerb1 on July 01, 2011, 08:19:27 PM
I love being able to shoot Moment of Felon!!!
Title: Re: 25 yards?
Post by: Toxxyc on July 04, 2011, 01:17:40 AM
Quote from: JHS on July 01, 2011, 07:29:57 PM

"Place a fattish coin on the slide just behind the front sight, upright so that it will topple when you move the pistol
Aim at a target in a safe direction (I'm sorry, I'm very safety conscious when it comes to firearms), and squeeze the trigger as you would when shooting at a real target"


I am assuming you mean placing the coin on edge? Do you place the coin perpendicular to the slide or parallel?
Standing a coin on edge and keeping it that way just holding a gun I would imagine is difficult enough... never mind squeezing the trigger.

I'll have to give it a try.

Yes yes that's what I meant... :)

Quote from: JHS on July 01, 2011, 08:07:43 PM
Okay, so i tried it with a nickel, the fattest I could find.  And as I thought just aiming the gun with a coin balancing on edge parallel to the aim is difficult, however with that said I was able to pull the trigger of my SP01 in SA without the coin falling until after the click of the hammer. Was using a 2 hand hold while the wife placed the coin on the slide. In DA, no chance. At least not yet... I can't wait till I get the trigger-worked shadow ;)

And it's great to see you managed it.  You wouldn't have to be able to do it in DA, as there's no rule in competitive shooting requiring from you to have such stability, as you are allowed to cock the pistol before the shot.  If you can manage to shoot with the same control as you can without the coin falling off, you're on your way to success.  I was taught this trick many years ago, and it was drilled into my head for use primarily with rifles at longer ranges (100yards and up) and it has given me excellent results (bullets touching each other with a .303 British, 100yards with a 4x32 telescope).  I never thought of doing the test with a pistol as well (seeing as how you're holding it in your hands and it's not lying on a rest), but a guy that trained me a little in precision shooting showed this to me a few months ago.  He first used a spent casing to place on the slide, but that was just too easy to keep on there, so he switched to a coin.  Took me a few tries to get it right, but I managed it and encorporated it in my shooting.  Great results ever since!

Oh yes, and another cool (and fun) excerise we do is to shoot a hole any place in a cardboard target, and then sticking the spent casing in the hole.  You then have to shoot the casing out of the hole.  With a good placed shot you'll make a starbust-shape pattern on the target from the lead bullet exploding on the casing.  Looks cool, fun to do and really helps you to steady the gun before a shot!  This is done at short range though, usually about 10yards or less.