The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => VZ-58 semi auto rifle => Topic started by: RSR on April 20, 2014, 06:12:52 AM
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Personally, a 9mm VZ58 makes a heck of a lot more sense to me and my needs, especially SBR'ed, than a 223/5.56 (either an Galil or M16 variant w/ an 18"+ is ideal for my needs in that caliber).
But w/o further delay, here's the article. H/T Firearm Blog: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/04/08/kolarms-adds-9mm-vz-58s-capabilities/
Kaliber: This a newly-made conversion of the venerable czechslovakian Vz.58 7,62?39 mm assault rifle to 9 mm Luger submachine gun. Both tested guns are prototypes only, made for a law enforcement inquiry. The first one is for the Glock pistol magazines, with a 12/76 shotgun underbarrel ?doorbreaching device?, the bolt is two-part in that gun, and that is the reason for the jams. The other is more developed version, for the CZ Skorpion EVO magazines and complete new bolt, that worked perfectly. The recoil is almost nothing, the submachine guns vere easily controllable and fun to shoot?
Both guns are simple blowback, closed bolt full auto guns, but a semiauto pistol-caliber carbine is/will be available.
http://www.kaliberinfo.hu/fegyvervideok/kolarms-vz-58-9x19-mm-geppisztolyok
And no, it's not available for sale. Just prototype from what I can tell.
Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXrUFK3GsN4
The Scorpion Evo option looks like what the GunMagazin folks were running in this vid from an earlier post on here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX9e4GxR5ro
For reference, here's a Scorpion Evo:
(http://www.czub.cz/zbrojovka/czech-guns/CZ_SCORPION_EVO_3_A1.png)
http://www.czub.cz/en/catalog/86-law-enforcement-military/OS-AUT/CZ_SCORPION_EVO_3_A1.aspx
The CZ SCORPION EVO 3 A1 is a modern submachine gun chambered in 9x19 used by security forces and armies around the world. The weapon is characterised by exceptional ergonomics, durability and ease of use. This submachine gun meets requirements for reliable operation in adverse conditions according to both NATO AC 225/D14, and TPVD 637 ? 81. The weapon enables the fire to be conducted in fully automatic fire, three round bursts, and single shots.
No tools are necessary for routine maintenance disassembly. Low weight and small dimensions facilitate concealed carry and use in very confined spaces. Characteristic features of this weapon are a good balance making quick and easy aiming, high accuracy of fire, long service life and high functional reliability under all conditions. The advantages are fully ambidextrous controls and four accessory rails according to MIL-STD-1913 fitted as standard.
And here's a GunExpert article on previous 9mm, "Bulldog" variants of the VZ58: http://www.gunexpert.cz/products/sa-vz-58-98-bulldog-9mm/
And for fun, here's a full auto CZ75:
(http://www.czub.cz/zbrojovka/cz_images/O_nas2013/CZ_75_Automatic/CZ_75_FULL-AUTO%20new.jpg)
(http://www.czub.cz/zbrojovka/cz_images/O_nas2013/CZ_75_Automatic/CZ11.JPG)
http://www.czub.cz/en/news/written-about-us/632-the-czech-9mm-cz-75-full-automatic-pistol.aspx
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Another 9mm video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUroiZO8dFQ
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Enjoyed the videos RSR. I have been interested in a 9mm carbine for awhile now. As far as availability, as much as a CZ or a VZ would be my first choice, the Beretta CX will probably have to do.
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Slide Fire 9mm Colt:
http://youtu.be/LZiw0pQoSaY
Personally, I prefer the Keltec sub2000 over Beretta for a heavy polymer weapon. Beretta is probably an overall better weapon though. Both are shorter overall length than the colt, or at least should be with pistol grip versus forward mag position.
The Slide Fire option on that 9mm Colt is really compelling, and I have a soft spot for Uzis too. YMMV.
I was looking at building a Micro Galil and ran some numbers -- an 8" 223 barrel Microgalil vs a 16" sub2k barrel results in the Sub2k having 93% of 55gr 223 or 82% of 62gr 223 out of competing platforms.
Lengthwise, the Sub2k with pistol grip mag and open runs 29.5". The Microgalil with forward mag, 8" barrel, and open runs 27.8". So less than 2" length difference and shooting the 9mm indoors isn't equivalent to a flashbang going off.
My ramble is over here on it if interested: http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?74783-Micro-Galil-Utility-amp-Purposes
Also, I mention over there, but the only thing as civilians the 223s can do that 9mm can't is pierce soft armor. For military/LE, they can buy armor piercing 9mm rounds, so a non-issue...
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and another with some close ups
http://youtu.be/AK8DVy1gNmo (http://youtu.be/AK8DVy1gNmo)
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Awesome, thanks for sharing.
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Related vid released the other day:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wXFf34bB34
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When you say conversion kit... This means you can convert the same platform from 7.62x39 to 9mm?
Or is this a dedicated vz58 platform in 9mm?
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Well, you'd need to swap out barrels. A 9mm bullet is about 1/2" wider than is 7.62x39.
And the action on this 9mm kit is a blowback rather than piston operated. So you wouldn't drill a gas hole in the barrel (could still mount a gas block if you wish for standard handguards, etc. Just don't drill.
Otherwise, the main conversion parts would only be the new 9mm specific bolt, a mag well adapter, and whatever recoil spring system they have setup and tuned for the 9mm blowback action (springs might be stock)... For their Scorpion Evo Mod it looks like they deleted the standard entire top cover/bolt carrier/etc and redid that whole top part of weapon.
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Too bad a simple drop in platform wouldnt work for these rifles, with the barrels being pressed in and all. A 9mm set up would be much more practical for an apartment defense weapon.
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The FBI is looking to switch from 40 S&W to 9mm. Click the link below for why (FWIW, I agree 100% with their justifications, and no, in a ball ammo military setting the reasoning does not 100% translate, but the HK 45 Mk23 is a overweight, overengineered boondoggle and the 1911 [just like the DI AR15] requires far more maintenance than can or should be expected in a military field setting...):
Below is a very interesting read from the FBI Training Division, FBI Academy, Quantico, VA. from a few months ago. This was a PDF file that was sent to me by a coworker. I want to emphasis this is not mine and I did not create it/the content. I simply copied the text and placed it in this format, here on Loose Rounds, so it was easier to see. It is an executive summary of justification for law enforcement agencies on 9mm for duty carry. If you have followed us here, you know I have been talking about numerous agencies switching back to 9mm over the last few years, as well as the FBI testing for their switch. Great strides in bullet technology have been made in the past decade and 9mm is on the top of its game. With a select few rounds in 9mm, that have been tested for duty carry, 9mm is fast becoming one of the best options for duty carry. ( the authors opinion on 9mm being the best defensive round is his and does not reflect the opinion of all looserounds writers or owners-ED) This goes into some detailed history of testing, common caliber myths and justification for 9mm use over other calibers. The picture below has absolutely nothing to do with the content below. It is a very old picture that most are familiar with. I put it in to give others a frame of reference, on the type of rounds being discussed below. Enjoy!
http://looserounds.com/2014/09/21/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/
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There is no good reason to convert other than proof of concept. Too complicated and more likely to jam. Not to mention ammo prices are about the same. If you want a good apartment 9mm carbine get a Glock 19 and Mech Tech upper.
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Eh not a bad idea. Really after looking into it more, a pistol is more ideal anyway. Can manipulate doors, move things with free hand while keeping weapon ready. Currently have a G35 (wish I would have got a 34) with a surefire x300u and 22 round mag, best defensive weapon for an apartment that I could come up with minus it being a 40 vs 9. Not that a 9mm carbine is not on the "to buy" list :)
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I just updated this re: 9mm being equivalent to other pistol rounds w/ modern defensive ammo and no pistol round being a one shot stop...
However, the MechTech looks interesting -- hadn't seen that before. But you'd be in ~$800 for one of those (pistol+upper), which is about the price of the platinum pistol carbine (IMO), the Colt AR, or platinum sub machine gun Action Arms or IMI Uzi.
Honestly, I'd really like the Scorpion EVO, but IF the there was a decent price kit for the VZ2008 conversion, I'd definitely have to consider it.
Re: pistol vs rifle, I wear ~34" sleeve shirts. With pistol + arms extended is over 3 feet/36", probably pushing 40". My sub2k is 29.5" in length (with 16" barrel, most SBRs in 223 have barrel lengths of 1/2 that to have similar length). Just wanted to illustrate that weapon size doesn't correspond to presentation length (and the rifle is easier to maintain control of than a pistol in the event of a struggle IMO).
My preference would be to cut the Keltec down to 10-12" and run it as an SBR. Just not sure that weapon's worth the stamp...
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Im looking to get a Sub2k in 9 soon here. Seems to be a great solution but I'm with you, if the vz had some cheap fix to run 9 I would be open to it.
Not to hijack this thread, but how do you like your sub2k? A buddy had one and said it would only shoot hot loads.
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It shoots anything I run in it. I suppose if you tried lower pressure ammo from the start (before breaking in springs) and/or didn't have your bolt generously lubed you could have issues, bu I haven't.
My default ammo though are the Federal 9BPLE -- a +P+ HP load -- and S&B SB9A FMJ. Both run hot. The S&B is essentially a 9mm nato pressure load but w/ a 115 gr bullet rather than 124.
SB9A is listed at ~150 fps faster (1280fps vs 1090-1145 fps) than federal fmj (standard pressure, american eagle is loaded w/ less pressure than is redbox) and the federal 9bple is listed at ~120 fps faster than standard pressure federal HP loadings for the Federal 9BP (that's at 1180 fps, vs 1300 fps for the 9bple).
*I shoot these for velocity gains/flatter shooting not out of necessity for function. And I haven't tried steel or aluminum cases in it either (believe the manual says to avoid aluminum).
I like it enough that I'm planning to pick up a second to keep in my wife's car as a trunk gun. And I went w/ Glock b/c their high capacity mags (33 rounders) were the most reliable out there.
However, the Sub2k does have its own specific manual of arms. For me, the compactness gain was worth it. Depending on what you/yours run or are familiar with, a Colt 9mm or Citadel 9mm M1 Carbine clone might make more sense (Citadel uses Beretta 92 mags). Those are the three 9mm carbine platforms I'd consider/recommend (I'd classify an IMI or Action Arms Uzi as a SMG rather than a carbine, but it's a fourth option as well -- and my first and only choice for SHTF situation if I had to pick just one but that's not my use case here, well maybe the Colt just due to accessory options...). Regardless, other options all have major drawbacks: the Taurus if there were conversion packages available, the Suomi if it didn't weight so much and was reliable with all ammo and if the conversion kept more of the original operating system, the Beretta 9mm carbine if its hammer and other integral parts weren't polymer [+$200-300 to replace those which brings to colt 9mm price range], Marlin Camp if they weren't relatively fragile upon part failure, Ruger is heavy with bad trigger pull and no current production mags, and the HiPoint has the same propriety just standard capacity mag drawback...
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Saiga (AK) 9mms are now available in Europe... Where's the indubitably superior 9mm VZ58? O0
(http://i.imgur.com/8O8mhYz.jpg)
http://imgur.com/a/2dqTj
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http://youtu.be/ZM6BOjsFx4M
HST is not bonded though...
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If they won't give us a 9mm VZ58 domestically, I might have to go with the PSA Glock lower 9mm AR...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4sY2i7U1io
Have been toying with adding a blemished Adams Arms 5.56 to my collection for more practice/familiarity with the AR operational ergos just due to them being a killer deal and short stroke piston design, but a 9mm blowback is much more intriguing. And glock mags too!
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If CZ would build a civilian version of the Scorpion Evo, and someone import it to the US, I'd be standing in line with my cash.
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I have both a VZ and a Beretta CX-4 in 9mm. Love them both but they are very different. I don't think I'd want the VZ in 9mm when there are guns out there like the Beretta but that's just me!
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Well, looks like the Scropion EVO3 is coming from CZ USA!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XAYsYwZGxI
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Actually it's already here: http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-scorpion-evo-3-s1-pistol/
$849.
Full auto, SBR version if you're LE: http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-scorpion-evo3-a1/
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Actually it's already here: http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-scorpion-evo-3-s1-pistol/
$849.
Full auto, SBR version if you're LE: http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-scorpion-evo3-a1/
I think I just decided on my next firearm purchase. This + sig arm brace would make a made combo. And for pretty cheap!
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Did some searching. In their catalog but on preorder now. Not officially released.
I'd think we'll see them at $749-799 or so a couple months after released. That price is ridiculous!
Might have to get rid of my Sub2k in favor of this rig! Definitely want a folder on it however. ACE makes one that screws into the AR tube mount. And would slightly extend length of pull.
Posted both of below over in Horse's pistol build thread, but with the ATF now giving contradictory advice on whether mounting a sig brace to your shoulder is in effect "converting" the weapon, I'd personally lean more towards the Thorsden cheek rest setup:
Just came across this -- looks like a great option as well:
(http://www.recoilweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Friday-Night-Gun-Porn-Thorsden-5.jpg)
(http://www.recoilweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Friday-Night-Gun-Porn-Thorsden-8.jpg)
Image source and good read: http://www.recoilweb.com/friday-night-gun-porn-compliant-ar-option-and-an-ar-pistol-43401.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHyIoxD8Y1A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE-JYbgigVw
Stock tube cover -- $26.99 to $36.99 (more expensive having quick detach sling connects)
Saddle adapter kit -- $18.99
Saddle -- $26.49
Should ~$80-$100 delivered. That is cheaper than the Sig Brace...
http://www.thordsencustoms.com/shop/AR-PISTOL.htm
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Have to admit. This knowledge of the EVO has made my week. And I have the PSA 9mm AR upper coming this week too...
Though I still like the idea of an all steel VZ58 in 9mm -- not a huge fan of polymer.
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Have to admit. This knowledge of the EVO has made my week. And I have the PSA 9mm AR upper coming this week too...
Though I still like the idea of an all steel VZ58 in 9mm -- not a huge fan of polymer.
When I watching the Noir video I kept being impressed. From the bolt release, the cheap mags,the awesome charging handle, to the MSRP. It shocked me too!
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EVO 3a1.
According to Wikipedia, it's 410mm long with stock folded. That's 16.14 inches.
With stock unfolded, it's 670mm long. That's 26.38 inches.
Barrel is 7.72".
BUT for the s1 (civilian version), most pistol tubes are only 7-8 inches long. So we're probably looking at +7.5-8.5 inches over the 16.14 length, or the 24" range with that tube installed, and another inch if you add a folder.
For comparison:
Sub2k (16" barrel) is 29.5" inches long (and 16" folded, but inoperable folded).
Uzi (standard, 10.2" barrel) is 18.5" inches long with stock collapsed and 25" with stock extended.
Colt 9mm Smg (10.5" barrel) is 25.6" stock retracted and 28.9" stock extended -- Add 6" to each for 16" barrel w/ muzzle device.
MP5 w/o suppressor (8.9" barrel) is 27" w/ fixed stock or 21.7" stock collapsed.
?korpion vz. 82 (9?18mm Makarov version, 4.4" barrel) is 10.6" stock folded and 20.4" stock extended.
VZ58 rifle (15.4" barrel) is 25" stock folded and 33.3" w/ stock extended.
VZ58 carbine (11.8" barrel) is 21.5" stock folded and 29.7" w/ stock extended.
VZ58 compact (7.5" barrel) is 17.1" stock folded and 25.4" w/ stock extended.
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Also, according to ballisticsbytheinch: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html
There is only about a 75 fps difference between a 7" barrel and a 16" one, or a 8" barrel and 15" one.
It looks like 15" is the maximum length for max velocity as well. Beyond that, all you're doing is reducing muzzle blast and flash.
So it's safe to assume that the EVO likely will have more blast and flash than the Sub2k or other longer barreled 9mm carbines, but velocity differences with common ammo, excepting perhaps +P+ 9mm, will be marginal.
This EVOs1 is looking like an ideal truck gun for my needs... Might end up keeping the sub2k for home defense, depending upon the tritium night sight options for the EVO...
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One complaint is that I do wish it had a more vertical grip. That extreme cant (for outdated shooting technique) pushes your elbows out rather than down... And for Military/LE, that exposes more of your unarmored body to enemy, a potentially fatal design flaw... Looks like they just copied the MP5 grip angle here...
More evo vids:
http://youtu.be/x2AOIkSsj9k
http://youtu.be/Y90lvB3mzEI
http://youtu.be/4ByigNHoNeg
http://youtu.be/zMs1CPZvP9w
http://youtu.be/bU9TOzTPAj4
http://youtu.be/C9lpGD2hvnk
http://youtu.be/Y-gjOoufr_4
Suppressed subsonic:
http://youtu.be/8CR_5ffAsMM
Suppressed supersonic ammo:
http://youtu.be/1jfKNBOGet8
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There's now a Scorpion EVO board: http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?board=91.0
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If anyone has more information regarding 9mm conversions for the VZ-58 and variants, please do share.
Also random pictures of conversions are welcome.
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Good video showing presentation length:
http://youtu.be/_APnhoIYeD0
When compactness matters -- you really can't beat pistol carbines (300 blk and specail 7.62x39 loadings are probably next best outside of pistol calibers though). Wish he would have included a pistol carbine however...
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9mm VZ58s in Europe for general sale using EVO mags: http://sa-vz-58.webnode.sk/produkty-1/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8jswM05x1U
h/t Charlie-2-6
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=69597.0