The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ CLONE CLUB => Topic started by: DexterGSP on July 08, 2014, 05:34:59 PM
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I would like to do a trigger job and possibly an SA conversion on my C-100. My trigger job would mean altering some of the parts like the sear and hammer. The SA conversion may mean altering some parts as I plan to install a CZ SA trigger in it and would then need to alter the firing pin safety lever for it to work. If something went south I would need to be able to replace the parts that I worked on. It?s always a good idea to have spare parts available when modifying the original parts.
Anyway, I called Tristar and spoke to Garret. We had a pleasant conversation and he was very professional. I explained to him that I planned to modify my C100 by doing a trigger job and wanted to know if parts were available. He said they were, but most individuals would need to send in the pistol for the warranty work and the shipping cost of the pistol would be on the owner?s dime. He stated that they would release parts to individuals on case by case bases depending on their working knowledge of the pistol. If they release the parts to an individual it would have to be through an FFL or a gunsmith (who presumably has an FFL). I told him that CZ does not have this policy and they will sell parts to whoever needs them. He went on to state that they do this for liability reasons. He said that shipping parts to an FFL would help them being absolved with any liability too. Bottom line, this parts policy makes it more difficult obtaining parts.
I did have a question for him regarding if the fire control group (at least the sear and hammer) and whether the sear and hammer were case hardened or hardened throughout. He told me that Dallas is their gunsmith and he would not be back in until Monday. If told me that if I wanted to I could send an email with questions for Dallas that I have and they would respond back to me. I told him that I?m a forum member here and other forum members have inquired about parts availability too. I went on to say that I would post this conversation and asked other forum members what questions they may have about the parts and send the email to him.
I would like to keep the questions to a bare minimum, like a half a dozen. It would not be fair to send 50 questions to them.
The first question will be regarding the hardening of parts. What other questions do you guys have for them?
When I send the email to Garrett I will attach a copy of the link to this thread. That way if I misspoke or misunderstood what he said he can clear it up on the forum.
Thanks, Paul
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I would like to know if they require serial numbers to order parts. I have an older Canik 55 S-120 that was not imported by Tristar and would like to order parts from them.
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Sounds like Tristar has a severe case of CYA!
But it is, as I suspected.
And it is a shame as some of the parts are so proprietary on sizing etc., that you cannot buy and modify a CZ part to replace it (most specifically the sear and FPB lifter assembly)
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Sounds like Tristar has a severe case of CYA!
But it is, as I suspected.
And it is a shame as some of the parts are so proprietary on sizing etc., that you cannot buy and modify a CZ part to replace it (most specifically the sear and FPB lifter assembly)
The whole liability thing doesn't make sense. If they are worried about someone modifying extra parts the owner of the pistol can always modify the original parts anyway. Also, if an owner fails to put in a new part correctly that can happen when someone is doing a deep cleaning and putting the original parts in wrong. I just don't get it.
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I would like to know if they require serial numbers to order parts. I have an older Canik 55 S-120 that was not imported by Tristar and would like to order parts from them.
You would need to call them directly regarding the parts and if they think you are competent to replace the parts they will send them to you FFL. However, since Tristar was not the importer they may not honor your request, but I'll give the question to them.
Paul
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I've contacted Dallas by email in the past. He was the most knowledgeable and responsive person I dealt with at Tristar. Dallas sent a new safety lever to me after I sent pictures to them showing casting marks on the one that was originally on my new P-120. There was no discussion of a parts policy at that time.
I contacted Tristar before I purchased my first Canik and I was told that parts were readily available. I'm hoping you will get better answers and a clearer picture of Tristars parts policies after you talk to Dallas.
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Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't an FFL transfer only required with serialized parts?
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Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't an FFL transfer only required with serialized parts?
The only serialized part regarding a firearm would be a frame/receiver. If some one else want to chime in feel free if there's anything else. There could also be things like full auto parts and suppressors/silencers that would require an FFL.
There are other serialized parts on guns that don't require an FFL like barrels, slides or other important fitted parts.
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Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't an FFL transfer only required with serialized parts?
The Serialized Frame of a Firearm is what is legally controlled and must be transferred by an FFL. Everything else is open to direct purchase, but apparently Tristar's Policy may be otherwise.
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Every major and minor gun manufacturer or distributor I'm familiar with has this policy to some degree ranging from only certain parts will be sold to the end user to the weapon has to be returned for ANY repair or replacement. Serialization has nothing to do with the FFL requirement. It's required because they want a gunsmith installing parts who knows what he's doing, has a license to lose, and assumably has some sort of insurance. It adds a layer of liability protection between them and the home 'gunsmith' intent on that illusive but absolutely necessary 5-ounce trigger. Some have very valid concerns, others not so much. It'll probably get a lot worse.
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I think he's either made a mistake or misunderstood what you were asking.
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Every major and minor gun manufacturer or distributor I'm familiar with has this policy to some degree ranging from only certain parts will be sold to the end user to the weapon has to be returned for ANY repair or replacement. Serialization has nothing to do with the FFL requirement. It's required because they want a gunsmith installing parts who knows what he's doing, has a license to lose, and assumably has some sort of insurance. It adds a layer of liability protection between them and the home 'gunsmith' intent on that illusive but absolutely necessary 5-ounce trigger. Some have very valid concerns, others not so much. It'll probably get a lot worse.
Agreed! Although, it would appear CZ has a more rational understanding of this. Things like a sear and hammer from CZ are easily obtainable.
I was an insurance claims adjuster for three different companies over the past 14 years. I can tell you that an FFL's general liabilities policy would not be liable if they simply received the part and handed it to the owner of the pistol. And since when do those gunshop cowboys know anything other than selling guns? I would run circles around 99% of them in my gunsmithing abilities then those idiots working in those shops.
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Every major and minor gun manufacturer or distributor I'm familiar with has this policy to some degree ranging from only certain parts will be sold to the end user to the weapon has to be returned for ANY repair or replacement. Serialization has nothing to do with the FFL requirement. It's required because they want a gunsmith installing parts who knows what he's doing, has a license to lose, and assumably has some sort of insurance. It adds a layer of liability protection between them and the home 'gunsmith' intent on that illusive but absolutely necessary 5-ounce trigger. Some have very valid concerns, others not so much. It'll probably get a lot worse.
Agreed! Although, it would appear CZ has a more rational understanding of this. Things like a sear and hammer from CZ are easily obtainable.
I was an insurance claims adjuster for three different companies over the past 14 years. I can tell you that an FFL's general liabilities policy would not be liable if they simply received the part and handed it to the owner of the pistol. And since when do those gunshop cowboys know anything other than selling guns? I would run circles around 99% of them in my gunsmithing abilities then those idiots working in those shops.
I agree Paul!
And yes as precise as you are on your equipment, I would much rather have your hands in my gun than someone I do not know. There are couple shops I know and trust beyond that I would be tearing the gun down myself, post work to verify the work.
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I just sent two questions to Derek at Tristar. I'll post his reply when I get it.
"Derek, I've got a couple of questions for you regarding parts. I had original contacted you last Tuesday inquiring about spare parts including a sear and hammer for my C100. By the way, I started a small thread on the CZ forum. I hope I did not misquote you the last time we spoke. If I did feel free to correct me on the thread.
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=65193.0
Here are the two questions:
1. Are the fire control parts (things like the hammer and sear) case hardened or are they hardened throughout? The question is asked because there are a few of us that may want to do some trigger work on these pistols.
2. If someone has a pre-Tristar pistol, like a P120, can they order parts from you? Another forum member posed this question.
Thanks, Paul"
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I spoke to Garrett today (his name is not Derek as I previously wrote, I changed the initial post to correct this, I really need to get my hearing checked) and he said they are still working on the email I sent him and should have a response to me by today.
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I spoke to Garrett today about the email I sent him regarding the two questions. He said that he has forwarded the email to Cary (gunsmith) and to Canik in Turkey. Apparently the Canik rep did not understand the question on whether the parts are case hardened or hardened throughout. I doubt we will ever know the answer to this.
By the way, Garrett is in sales, Dallas is the parts guy, and Cary is the gunsmith/armorer.
The other question is the one asking if they will sell parts to a non-Tristar imported pistol. There are other Canik pistols imported prior to Tristar getting involved. Garrett said that they would absolutely NOT sell parts to a pistol they did not import.
Garrett explained in greater detail about their policy on selling gun parts. He admitted there are so many changes to the design and dimensions of parts throughout a production run that some parts will no longer fit some guns. Therefore, they want the firearm to come in for warranty repairs. He went on to say that Tristar will make a mid-production change to a part without even notifying them. That?s scary!!!
I asked him about the fact that a lot of their pistols shoot too far off from the point of aim. He said that he had not received that many complaints about the issue. They may look at it down the road, but it?s not on their radar right now.
I did criticize Canik for trying to reinvent the wheel. I asked him why not just copy what CZ already made. He agreed with me and had no idea why Canik went the route they did. I told him at this point I felt like giving up on Canik and continue to buy CZ pistols. He stated that their customer base is different from CZ?s customer base. Their customer base is not as knowledgeable about firearms and has a limited budget (this is me paraphrasing). He also agreed with me that some of us forum guys (terry mc) have a lot more knowledge about these guns than anyone at Tristar does. I believe their gunsmith is not a true gunsmith in terms of modifying and customizing these pistols. I believe he is more of an armorer (parts changer).
When I sent the original email to him I included a copy of this link. He has not looked at this thread at this time. To be frank, I?m not sure if he really cares.
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Great post! I had a somewhat similar lackluster discussion with Tristar back when I was having issues with their T-120.
Needless to say, I have since sold the T120 and moved to the P120 and S120. Both have been flawless so far (knock on wood). Perhaps the reason they can't make 1:1 copies of the CZ's is for legal reasons? IDK, but my P120 is pretty nice.
It's especially nice since I having it worked on by Dave at Cajun Gun Works. I can't believe how amazing the trigger is. Who needs the HK VP9 when I have this amazing pistol.
But I wish the beavertail was more in line with the CZ line and shipped with better sights. Never the less, for less than $400, I have a better pistol with the trigger job than pistols double the price.
My only real beef is with the lack of sights for the CZ\Tristar line. I LOVE my Ameriglo i-dot sights on my M&P. Wish there were more aftermarket sights for the pistol line.
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I've heard from several sources that there are no patents on the CZ design or if there were they ran out a long time ago. Sorta like why we see all of the different companies producing 1911 pistols. No one has ever been able to give me a good reason why they can't 100% clone a CZ.
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By the way, most, not all, of the Canik pistols share the same rear sight dovetail dimensions as the CZ's. I already swapped out the C100 rear sight for a #4 CZ rear sight.
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I am beyond aggravated dealing with them, I feel like I'm talking to a wall!
We are too spoiled by CZ, tristar just dosnt get what we are use too... I tried to explain to them nicely that if they want to last they better get their act together!
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Thanks for your efforts getting an answer to my non-Tristar parts question. Kind of leaves us pre-Tristar owners hanging, doesn't it. I suppose that one solution might be to use a Tristar serial number when ordering parts. But if he is right about the numerous production changes, who knows what parts will, or will not fit?
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Dexter,
I spoke with Dallas yesterday about my sight issue. I am not sure he is a gunsmith, although he is knowledgable. I spoke with him about different sights and at the time they only had the replacement sight, but when we spoke yesterday he mentioned that they had new rear sights and that they were different size, so there was some modification that needed to happen to make them fit. I didn't understand if he was referring to the front or rear and I didn't think of calling until just before I was boarding a plane home so I was having a hard time hearing. I would like to get parts as well, but I had a feeling that they are doing running changes. If they are then Canik should have the proper documentation to tell which serial numbers have which parts or so much for Testing and ISO 9000.
ACCURACY TEST
The Accuracy Test is a process to test the accuracy of the pistol in 25 meters.
How to perform the test;
The pistol attaches to a fixture to prevent any recoil.
The target sets to 25 meters from the muzzle of the pistol.
10 shots done with the pistol and it should group in a 16 cm diameter circle on the target.
The pistol that groups 10 shots in 16 cm diameter, pass the test.
$100 says mine will group that well but not at POA even from a ransom rest.
QUALITY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM CERTIFICATION (Auditing Establishment: Turkish Standards Institution):
Turkish Standards Institution certifies with this certification that, Samsun Yurt Savunma Sanayi ve Ticaret A.S establishment has a QUALITY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM in accordance with the TS EN ISO 9001:2000 requirements.
INDUSTRIAL QUALITY ASSURANCE RATING CERTIFICATION (Auditing Establishment: Republic of Turkey Ministry of Defense):
It is certified that your establishment?s quality assurance system described in July 20, 2005 dated and KEK.01 02 numbered handbook is in accordance with the AQAP-2120 requirements for the products and/or services specified below.
?Canik55 Brand Handgun Production?
If all else fails I know a few people that speak Farsi and can probably get them to translate.
Jeff
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Dallas is the parts guy and Cary is their gunsmith, so says Garrett (sales guy).
I've been to the Canik website were they brag about their quality assurance. I'm starting to see a lot of issues with Canik pistols, at least with their finish and sights.
"I spoke with him about different sights and at the time they only had the replacement sight, but when we spoke yesterday he mentioned that they had new rear sights and that they were different size, so there was some modification that needed to happen to make them fit."
Depending how wide the new sights are you may need to re-machine the dovetail. I think an easy and cheap solution is to use CZ rear sights if they fit.
By the way, I just sold my Canik Stingray-C for $330 today. I do like my C100. It's just about the perfect size and weight for carrying CCW. However, if something goes south on the C100 I'll sell it and stick with CZ pistols.