The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: tdogg on December 06, 2014, 08:19:28 PM
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I learned a few things today...
First lesson: When making any changes to loads make sure you test them before using them in competition.
Second lesson: The Factory Crimp die and Taper Crimp die are different tools and their output isn't the same.
Third Lesson: A flat anvil works best with the flat nose on SWC bullets.
I tried to shoot a match with my 97BD today and kept getting failures to feed using some 200 gr SWC's. Two of the failures left a pretty good mark on the rim of the case mouth. In the first two stages I was forced to drop the mag and rack the slide to clear the jam. It wasn't a simple re-rack or bump and go to clear the feed issue. Needless to say I had to go to my SP01 in 9mm to finish out the match.
Previous batches loading these I loaded these bullets were done using a Lee Factory crimp die with an OAL of 1.26 inches. I don't recall what I was crimping them to using the factory crimp die. I'm pretty sure that I wasn't imparting any crimp but the sizing ring was removing the bell and resizing the bullet/case down to ~0.470 inches. With the taper crimp die I was crimping down to 0.472 only. I switched to the taper crimp die to try and maintain the bullet diameter during the crimp process (to hopefully improve accuracy). Upon inspection of the failed rounds I needed to crimp more as there was still a very slight bell to the mouth of the case. There was no doubt that the amount of crimp (0.472) was leaving a mark o the 0.452 lead SWC bullets. I was under the impression that you needed to crimp enough to remove the bell but not enough to leave a mark in the bullet. This will not be possible with the 0.452 SWC lead bullets.
I was a little perplexed how my OAL was varying so much during seating these bullets. It seemed that every 5 or so I would have one that seated deeper than the rest by about 5-10 thousandths. These were my first all lead bullets. Upon close inspection the nose of the SWC on these bullets didn't have as much of a round on it. This caused the bullet to be seated deeper in the case upon seating with the round anvil in the seating die. I had purchased another anvil from Lee for the seating die and ground the round profile flat to better seat the flat nose bullets. Using the flat anvil, my OAL variation went to about +/- 1 thousandths.
Does anyone have experience using SWC's in 97BD? If you had to guess would you pick the OAL change or the crimp change that would have caused my feeding/jamming issues. I have been using these bullets for both practice and competitions up until this point without issue so it has to be one or both of my changes.
I pulled the remaining bullets out and reseated them to 1.26 inches and then recrimped them to 0.470 inches using the taper crimp die. I can't load them any longer they don't pass the plunk test. I'm at about 5-10 thou off the lands at 1.26 inches. That was one of the reasons for seating them deeper for these latest batches. With the bullet seated to 1.25 the shoulder of the SWC is just barely past the case mouth. I think that the lack of shoulder along with the slight bell on the mouth was letting the case hang up on the top of the chamber.
Anyways I haven't had a chance to test the reworked cartridges yet but I have been using the barrel as a case gauge to ensure they pass the plunk test. Hopefully I can get a combination that works with the SWC as I like the really round holes on the targets. I guess I can just go back to the factory crimp die if needed.
Sorry for the long winded post.
Cheers,
Toby
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I could be wrong but if I remember correctly just a thumbs nail of the shoulder of the SWC should be past the case mouth.
Someone correct me if I am wrong.
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Toby -
Not to worry. These are all issues that every reloading competitor has to go through. I went through many of the same experiences. Here are some helpful hints...
First lesson: When making any changes to loads make sure you test them before using them in competition.
Second lesson: The Factory Crimp die and Taper Crimp die are different tools and their output isn't the same.
Third Lesson: A flat anvil works best with the flat nose on SWC bullets.
? Excellent !! You're on your way. To that I would add one more... Use a cartridge gauge on every competition round before putting them in the plastic box. Rounds that have passed the gauge "plunk test" get a red check mark at my house. This distinguishes them from plinking or simple test rounds.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/ThFpdyhasw5TCnZamliqZqsEbQUSDpBnVLP-mbV308Y=w803-h520-no)
Les dimensions de la cartouche SAMMI
With the taper crimp die I was crimping down to 0.472 only.
? The 0.473" mouth dimension given in the reloading book diagram is the Maximum allowable. You need to be .002-.003 smaller than that number in order for every bullet to "fall" into the chamber. Using a cartridge gauge will prove that to you.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-GdOhsAgTP64/TTObDJpBVlI/AAAAAAAAE1Y/2WaSb8P-mj8/w919-h689-no/IMG_4290.JPG)
Finding this round just cut my stage time by 10 seconds... and I've not even left the house
I was under the impression that you needed to crimp enough to remove the bell but not enough to leave a mark in the bullet. This will not be possible with the 0.452 SWC lead bullets.
? You've confused the "expected result" with the "No. 1 rule". Use your Lee Taper Crimp Die to get the cartridge mouth down to 0.470 inches. THEN, the indent on the bullet should be insignificant. But by staying away from the Lee FCD, at least you won't be re-sizing the whole bullet. If there happens to be a mark on the bullet, then at least it will be minimal and localized, and therefore not likely to affect your bullet-to-barrel fit, thus accuracy.
If you'll go back in the threads in which this statement was originally made, you'll see that this observation was made in reference to plated bullets, of which it is extremely important NOT to break through the copper cladding. Plated bullets would be .002" smaller than the lead examples you're using. In fact, your lead bullet may end up with a ring, but it is of small import when compared to chambering the round. Consider.... if you can't chamber the round, then the presence of a ring on the inside of the case is of VERY small import.
Does anyone have experience using SWC's in 97BD?
? The dimensions for SWC in 1911 have been cast in stone for 100 years. Since the 1911 is fairly picky about OAL, just a hunch would tell me to start with the same exact OAL and load data already in your manual. Generally SWC rounds have the shoulder of the bullet above the case mouth by ~.030-.035 inches.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-KHoYer395B4/UVxgOvcs7EI/AAAAAAAAD2o/JGqQSWw6zHA/w1064-h689-no/WobblyF.JPG)
This is a depiction of SWC in 9mm, but the rules are the same
I pulled the remaining bullets out and reseated them to 1.26 inches
? In cartridges with no roll crimp, you may simply run them back through the press to achieve a shorter OAL. Disassembling ammo represents a lot of hard work to no real advantage. And certainly, there's no need to pull out the FCD just to get the correct crimp diameter. Not to discourage in any way, but IMHO you are now 'backing up'. In Star Trek parlance, "This does not compute." Que the 'moanback' soundtrack. ;D
Hope this helps, because you have the right equipment and technique, and are very close to making perfect competition ammo. Hopefully this info just might put you 'over the top' on these last few issues. At least that's my sincere intent.
;)
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Thanks Wobbly!
It sounds like you think that the amount of crimp is the culprit to my failures. I have another 100 rounds that I was going to rework. Should I just re-crimp them down to 0.470 and see if they feed properly? Or should I pull them out to the longer 1.26 OAL and re-crimp them to 0.470?
A couple of clarifications:
I tried not to pull the bullets completely (sometimes one wack with the hammer pulled the bullet completely), just enough to reseat them longer to 1.26 inches (from 1.25 inches). This was because I thought I didn't have enough shoulder above the case mouth. With these Bedwell 200 gr SWC bullets when seated at 1.25 OAL the amount above the case mouth is ~0.025-0.03 (some shorter still due to roundness of nose differences and subsequent shorter OAL). You confirmed that I need to seat them longer to get the recommended 0.03-0.035 inch distance to shoulder.
I can't find any load data for these Bedwell Lead bullets. The Lyman manual says to seat the 200 gr SWC to 1.235 which is too short. My Hornady manual says to seat them to 1.245 which is also too short. My Speer manual says to seat them to 1.275 which is too long for the CZ chamber. I think that for these bullets the magic OAL is 1.255 to 1.26 inches. Maybe Santa will bring me a cartridge gauge for XMas, for now my barrel will do.
One other reason I started using the Taper crimp die was I had small amounts of leading when shooting these. I think the complete bullet resize with the FCD was the root cause of my leading issues as it was reducing the bullet diameter. I will have to see if that goes away with these batches that I used the Taper crimp die on.
I only have ~1-2 hundred more of these so I shouldn't spend too much time tinkering but I really like the SWC for targets (nice round hole). I think I will order more (most likely Black and Blue coated) and will use these learnings to dial in the new bullet.
Thanks again for your help!
Cheers,
Toby
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Toby -
? If you want to seat at 1.260" (and that number sticks in my mind as what I've used) then...
? Elongate with a kinetic hammer or re-seat shorter until you get that OAL, then
? Use the basic taper crimp die to get them down to .470" (*See note below).
? You can use the load data from ANY book that's showing 200gr lead for an OAL shorter than what you're using. All that matters is the weight (200gr) and construction (lead). The brand name has zero affect. The powder is pushing weight, not the marketing department. Therefore, you can safely use the load data from your Lyman book.
? For 45ACP, the 200gr SWC IS the standard target round. Period. Whether you pursue more SWC right now is up to you, but you WILL be back to them at some point.
NOTE: Brass has a certain spring-back quality which may cause you to scratch your head. Set the TC die and run all the oversize cartridges on hand. Usually you only need to adjust the TC die once a year. However, on your next production run you may find that your TC diameter is way off. This will be because to squeeze from 0.473 to 0.470 *may* take a different setting from new production that will be squeezing from (say) 0.480 to 0.470". It is not the die going bad, it is simply one of the qualities of the metal we know as "brass". Once into regular production with the TC die set to 0.470", then you'll be in the once-a-year zone.
Hope this helps! ;)
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I shoot the same 200gr SWC reload in my CGW 97BE that I use in all my .45 ACP 1911s. I don't measure an OAL, but measure the length from the seated shoulder of the bullet to the base of the case and anything from .930-.935 works in all my .45ACP guns. This will yield an OAL of about 1.250. I crimp everything to .469-.470. Try this and see if it will "plunk" in your 97B barrel (better than any case guage Santa may bring you). I have 6 pistols that shoot .45ACP and the dimensions I use result in a load that will work in all of them.
You should be aware that there was apparently a run of 97B barrels where the chamber was both short and out of round......my 2013 97B was one of them. A quick trip to my 1911 smith and reaming the chamber to the specs he uses on his custom 1911s in .45ACP solved that issue.
[Modified for clarity]
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Thanks Brad. How would I go and inspect the chamber to verify it's within spec? Is there anything specific to look at?
Wobbly, that is exactly what I did, reseated to 1.26 and crimped down to .470. I really like the SWC and I seem to shoot it well. The best piece of info you shared was the 0.030-0.035 inch distance from the case mouth to bullet shoulder. That was the info I couldn't find anywhere (or didn't know how to search for it). I can translate that to an OAL for my next SWC bullet when the time comes. Oh and I will keep an eye on my crimp, I should have stated that this is all with Federal brass that is new (factory pull down from american reloading). I'm going to have to look at the crimp again once I get through all of it and it's once fired as opposed to new.
Cheers,
Toby
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I crimp everything to .469-.470. Try this and see if it will "plunk" in your 97B barrel (better than any case gauge Santa may bring you).
Yes, agreed, in ALL cases the barrel is the ultimate arbiter and judge. The barrel is "she who must be obeyed".
But, for the competitor who loads ammo week after week after week, an inexpensive LE Wilson cartridge gauge can save you a lot of gun dis-assembly, time, and trouble. Doubly so if you keep your guns in a safe. A cartridge gauge can be left out on the bench; a gun cannot.
How would I go and inspect the chamber to verify it's within spec? Is there anything specific to look at?
Simply drop in ammo that's known and verified to be within spec. Unfortunately, out-of-round is a condition you cannot measure with a 2-point micrometer or caliper. To check roundness requires a 3-point tool OR that the barrel be spun between centers and runout measured with an indicator. In your case, a test cartridge checked by a cartridge gauge can itself become a gauge. If a test cartridge drops in-and-out of the cartridge gauge and also spins freely in the gauge, AND does the same of the barrel, then the barrel can be assumed to not be undersized. It may be over-sized, but it can't be undersized.
Elementary, my dear Watson. ;)
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I'm going to take my barrel into work and check dimensions. If I can't get them with Vee blocks and a test dial indicator, I'll get them with the smart scope.
Cheers,
Toby
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Had a chance to find my 45ACP loading notes tonight. Looks like I've loaded various 200gr SWC from 1.230 up to 1.260". Berry was the shortest. But as was said, more important than the OAL is to get that consistent shoulder exposure.
;)
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I measured a few last night and at an oal of 1.26 my shoulder height is about .940 or .040 past the case mouth.
Cheers,
Toby
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Put together a few dummy rounds at about .930 and a .469 crimp and see if those would cycle in your 97B. I know they would in mine.
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So I checked the barrel using a Vee block and test indicator and it had about 2.5 -3 thousandths (total) eccentricity side to side (up down it seemed OK). This was using the outside of the barrel as zero reference and that may be the issue. I assume you would want the center of the bore as zero reference when checking the chamber. The headspace is about .899 inch (spec .898-.920 inch) which is on the tight/short side. Since I couldn't get an accurate diameter (its a tapered chamber), I used pin gauges to tell me what the diameter was at the case mouth/headspace rim. I couldn't get the .476 inch diameter pin gauge to seat all the way into the headspace/case mouth but I could get the .475 inch diameter pin to seat completely (spec .4744 inch +.004 inch). What does this all mean? It probably meets spec but it is definitely on the short side for length.
I may call David at CGW and see if this is what he has seen and to see if there is anything he would recommend for this chamber?
First things first I need to get out and shoot my reworked (.470 crimp 1.26 OAL) cartridges and see if they feed properly.
Cheers,
Toby
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IMHO your .0025-.0030 runout is the OD simply not being cut concentric to the bore. And there's no reason to really control that dimension any tighter, so I don't think that's abnormal. When you said you'd V-block the barrel, that's the exact result I thought you might get. You'd almost need a 7/16 expanding mandrel to fit in the bore and then support from the muzzle end to get the chamber concentricity.
The headspace may be tight, but it's within spec. Within spec is, well, within spec.
The SAMMI website might give you the spec on chamber dimensions, but as it is you got a minimum of .002 between the .475, and the max cartridge diameter of .473". So that sounds OK to me.
So the real proof is in the shooting. And I think you'll like what you see with the new feeding.
;)
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1) Pull the barrel
2) Seat the bullet long
3) Be sure that you use an expander that actually expands the case and not just flare the case mouth
4) Apply slight taper crimp to remove enough of the case mouth flare to allow the case to drop into the barrel (and have the bullet hit the lede/rifling)
5) Seat the bullet incrementally until the case head is flush with the end of the hood. This is correct COL for YOUR barrel
6) Crimp to SAAMI dimension or no more than 0.002" smaller
Next, if you have trouble with the rounds chambering, perform a plunk test as follows:
Take the barrel out of the gun. Drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop round in barrel (or gage) and rotate it back-and-forth.
Remove and inspect the round:
1) scratches on bullet--COL is too long (for the .45 Auto with lead bullets, you want the SWC shoulder to just touch the lede though)
2) scratches on case mouth--insufficient crimp
3) scratches just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case
4) scratches on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit. Best seating stems touch only the bullet's shoulder to help straighten the bullet during seating.
5) scratches on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.
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I'm using Lee dies, and I using the powder through expander with the Pro disk on top. I did notice that the bullets I had pulled completely (by accident) and reworked were resized to .451. They were originally .452 so maybe I should get the 45 colt expander plug offered by Lee? Or is there a better option to retain the bullet diameter through the loading process using Lee classic turret? I am having slight leading issues (when they feed properly) but that was with the FCD die that was resizing the bullet more so than the taper crimp die for sure. The barrel slugs at .451 so I was hoping to maintain the .452 lead diameter.
Cheers,
Jonah
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If the bullet is being swaged down, you need a larger expander. You are also likely to get bullets seated crooked and cause a bulge in the case near the base of the bullet that will prevent chambering.
Lee makes customs expanders, and their .45 Colt dies may be the same diameter as the .45 Auto dies.
You can also, if you have an extra station, install an additional expander die. Two expanders will expand a thousandths or two larger, in my experience, maybe due to overcoming some of the case spring back.
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I contacted Lee to see how to get an oversized expander plug. The response I got was more confusion:
Don't take offense, just need to clarify a few things first to determine the avenue we have to take.
Are you sizing your bullets to .452 and have you measured them?
You say you are using Lee carbide dies. Are using a Lee Taper Crimp Die or a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die?
Before we look at the expanding plug, we should look at the factory crimp die. The expanding plug opens the case mouth to accept the bullet, it doesn't open the case for the bullet. The crimp die could be the concern. The carbide ring in the FC die should not be undersizing to .351 (typo). So let me the answers to the above questions and we should be able to figure this out.
Thank You,
Jim
Customer Service
I responded with more information but have not got a response from Lee.
So has anyone used the Colt expander plug for 45 ACP? Is the Colt expander plug larger in diameter? I've read online that you can use the 38 expander plug in the 9mm die and it will allow for larger diameter cast lead bullet seating.
Is the 45 ACP a straight wall case? The Saami spec shows it has a slight taper. Wonder if I could back off the sizing die to get larger case diameter? I'm I over thinking this? I really want to keep the Lee expander system with the Powder through drop.
Cheers,
Toby
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Can't help you with Lee die / expander issues. I don't have any Lee dies to look at so I can advise you.
The 45ACP has such a slight taper that you'd need to back off more than a few 1/8 turns to achieve the effect you want. In fact you'd miss sizing about 1/2 the total length of the case. That in itself would create new issues.
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So I ordered a 45 Colt expander plug and a 38 S&W expander plug from Lee. $3.00 dollars a piece was cheap enough for me to take a chance on the 45 Colt expander. As Noylj thought, the 45 Colt expander has the same expander dimensions as the 45 ACP, it is just a shorter plug overall. This doesn't help me. The 38 S&W expander is a drop in replacement for the 9mm expander for those that load lead. It will open up the case for the oversized 9mm bullets (.357) so you don't resize the bullets during seating. I've tested it and my 9mm bullets are maintaining their diameter through the loading process.
Lee did get back to me finally (after I ordered and received my expander plugs). They will make a custom expander plug to suit your needs for $30 plus shipping. I think I will pass for now since this supply of lead SWC bullets is waning and my next bullet (Black and Blue Coated 200 No Lube Groove SWC) seems to hold up better through the loading process (looks very good by the way).
I did make it out and shoot the cartridges that I reworked and they all fed and shot without issue. I think it was a crimp issue and I have learned that you need to make sure you have the right amount of crimp to ensure proper feeding. I wish I didn't have to learn that lesson during a match!
Cheers,
Toby
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You should be aware that there was apparently a run of 97B barrels where the chamber was both short and out of round......my 2013 97B was one of them. A quick trip to my 1911 smith and reaming the chamber to the specs he uses on his custom 1911s in .45ACP solved that issue.
[Modified for clarity]
I had the same issue where the chamber was short. David fixed it for me and had it back to me the same week. My hand loads were well within SAAMI spec. And worked in all my 45s. Once I got the barrel back from David It was good to go. David is at Cajun gun works if u need this solution.
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I haven't read every post, but there's really no need to. First, the best cartridge gauge is your pistols barrel. A case gauge is simply a go-no go gauge, and while it will tell you if you need more crimp or the case-head is over-dimension, it can still "Pass" an over-length load. That's what I suspect your problem is.
A lot of guys like to run 200 gr. SWCs at 1.250 - 1.260" in 1911s, but in my experience with pistols like the XDm and Ruger SR45, they don't like loads that long and they may be causing a slight out-of-battery condition. For these pistols, I reduced OACL to 1.240" and I suspect that the 97BD is similarly throated. Again, something a case-gauge can not tell you. One reason you'll notice that with their 200 gr. SWC Lyman recommends an OACL of 1.235". And while it might be slightly different than commercially cast bullets that come from Magma equipment, the differences are too slight to be concerned with, IME. I use the Lyman data for MBC and BulletWorks 200 gr. SWCs and they cast the Magma style 200 gr. SWC.
Another thing, you really don't need to crimp cast lead bullets and I simply would not use a LEE FCD. It post sizes and can reduce the bullet's diameter that will result in leading with Cast bullets. Use a conventional taper crimp die and only remove the flare from the expanding operation. Check to see that it easily drops into the barrel, muzzle down. If you want to crimp to aid feed reliability, no more than .001" is needed and it's rare indeed that a combination of a .452" bullet and cases will give a case-mouth diameter of .473" which is the SAAMI max. and what your case gauge will pass. To put it bluntly, case gauges are a waste of time and money when it comes to loading for autoloading pistols. The ultimate test will always be YOUR barrel and chamber. Those are the dimensions you must load for. If you load for multiple pistols, load for the one with the tightest chamber and they should work fine in all of your same caliber pistols.
And, because of the variations in case-wall thickness among different brands of brass, use the method recommended by companies like Western Powder Co. and data Manuals like SIERRA's. Double case-wall thickness (I measure within 1mm of the case-mouth) and add the actual bullet diameter. This will tell you what the average case-mouth diameter will be after simply removing the flare. Say that ends up at .472" and it doesn't hurt anything to taper crimp by .001" if you feel it's necessary for better feed reliability, because you are turning the case-mouth into the bullet rather than leaving it square, your average finished case-mouth diameter, post taper crimp would be .471".
I generally don't fuss a lot about getting SWC loads correct and use little to no taper-crimp on cast or poly-coated bullets. But for competition, I would consider that if case-wall thicknesses are different enough on average, it might be worthwhile to segregate cases by headstamp. Even then you're gonna have variations in case-wall thickness and the best you can do is find the average. Pick 10 or so random cases from the different brands you have and go with the average for each. When brands are within say .001", it probably isn't necessary to segregate them. But where you'll find many brands at .011" and sometimes slightly thicker, you'll also run it cases like Rem's where thickness can be .009" or less. Obviously, that would mean differences in the average case-mouth diameter. Some choose to ignore it, or go to extreme's like the U-Type dies. Myself, I don't buy tools for conditions that shouldn't exist in the first place, and such extremes are unnecessary when you know that your expander button should be at least .002" below the diameter of the bullets you're actually loading and .003" won't hurt a thing. Generally, this will not be a problem when using cast bullets that must be at least .001" over the barrel's groove diameter in order to prevent leading regardless of alloy or BHN. With Poly-Coated, and one reason I recommend them is that they won't lead the barrel if they are slightly undersized or at groove diameter. Only slugging the bore will give you groove diameter, but that's only essential with lead bullets, cast or swaged.
Didn't mean to write a thesis, but this is an area that a good many handloaders have problems with. At an OACL of 1.260" for a 200 gr. SWC, when there's functioning issues, it is very often the result of an OACL that's not suited to your pistol. Try 1.250" and see if that works. If not, try 1.245" and 1.240". If you load with Lyman data and have to go down as low as their recommendation of 1.235" used to record cartridge pressures, it won't hurt a thing with a similar style SWC from a commercial caster. The differences in chamber pressure will be moot. Just make sure you're looking at the correct Lyman 200 gr. SWC because there are 2 with 1 getting loaded lighter and a good bit shorter. The one I'm speaking of specifically is the #452630. And at .470" at the case-mouth, you're feed issue has nothing to do with the taper crimp. That's more than enough for your barrel and will pass any case gauge.
Forgot something. In older manuals like my SPEER #11, they mention the rule-of-thumb for seating SWCs and recommend that the shoulder be 1/32" above the case mouth. .031" and even at 1.240 & 1.235" you should be fine. ;)
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wow, lots of great info here!
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57K thanks for the detailed response.
I ultimately concluded that it was a crimp issue. I had switched from the FCD to the taper crimp die and didn't get the taper crimp dialed in all the way. I was crimping to ~0.472 and I'm now crimping to ~0.470 and they feed and function great. The main reason for switching to the taper crimp die was to hopefully eliminate the slight leading observed with the lead loads. The FCD die definitely was resizing the bullet down during the crimp operation.
I think when using the SWC bullet you should use the length to shoulder in place of the OAL. That is the important measurement that would be more universal across bullet brands/profiles. Your 0.031 (case mouth to shoulder) + 0.898 (case length) gives an ideal length to shoulder of 0.929 inches. I'm currently loading to shoulder length of ~0.940 and they feed and function great. It's not as easy to get that measurement though so ultimately the OAL is still probably better used.
I'm currently loading only Federal cases all purchased at the same time (mostly). I haven't spent much time characterizing the variation in the case wall thickness but since I'm loading a single brand I assume it's better than not sorting by headstamp. I think I'm getting a consistent crimp/bullet case interference with this setup.
I'm still a newb to reloading and I really appreciate this forum and its members willing to share your knowledge on the subject!
Cheers,
Toby
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Just remember, the cartridge overall length (COL) in a manual is NOT a recommendation. It is simply what they used and should be considered the minimum COL the data applies to. In most cases, I suspect, that just like SAAMI uses a very short COL for testing (thus, making the tests a worst case), the test lab does the same with COL.
As you say, your barrel is the real case gage.
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You're welcome tdogg!
noylj is correct about OACL recommendations. It's mostly about pressure testing and it is a form of worse-case-scenario where a shorter length is given because the data provider knows that that length will work for the greatest number of pistols, short chamber or long chamber. In this case however, 1.235" that Lyman uses, where there's not enough difference between the commercially cast Magma style bullets to concern yourself with, is not what I'd call short. Not compared to their #452460 where the OACL used is 1.161". It's more of a target bullet even though some higher than necessary velocities are shown whereas the #452630 has greater utility by the number of things it can be used for: Target to Gun Games.
Anyway, glad you got the issue resolved and it is a bit unusual that a .472" case-mouth would cause feeding issues, but once again, more reason to load for the individual pistol's chamber rather than an arbitrary case-gauge.
Good to see the observations your making! You can never use too much precision, IMO, and to tell you the truth, I've never thought much about the distance from the case-rim to the shoulder even though I've used the rule-of-thumb for many years. Old dog learns new trick!
Using a single brand of cases is a great convenience and there's certainly nothing wrong with Federal, IME. Remington's are only used for my cast/poly-coated bullet loads. Winchester is good and what I have the most of. I'm particularly fond of S&B and have never had any problems priming them. Some complain about tight primer pockets and I was thinking about that the other day while I was loading on my Classic Turret with the LEE Safety Prime. No complaints from me and a tight primer pocket is always better than a loose primer pocket. Fiocchi is also good brass including the G.F.I. that's made by Fiocchi. Enough guys buy the factory loads of S&B and Fiocchi without picking up their cases after firing that I pick them up with mine and sometimes when my shooting partner runs across a good deal on either brand he buys them because he knows that I'll reload the cases. He's been handloading for a couple of years now, but tends to buy more guns than I do and will occasionally buy factory plinking ammo for expediency to the range.
Personally, I'd like to see more newer reloaders learning to taper crimp. It's just not that difficult, but I'll admit to a preference for REDDING dies and particularly their taper crimp and profile crimp dies for revolvers that applies both a taper crimp and a roll crimp, or, taper crimp alone for cases like light .38 Sp. Target loads where some prefer not to roll crimp with wadcutters. Anyway, it's a fundamental thing in my opinion and I'm glad you have a handle on it! ;)