The Original CZ Forum
CZ LONG ARMS => CZ Scorpion EVO => Topic started by: Shady on April 16, 2015, 03:19:37 PM
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Where did you end up putting the engraving for your form 1 sbr scorpion
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We have been putting it in the same position as CZ USA are laser marking but on the opposite side, anywhere on the main receiver is good
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Is it acceptable to engrave it into the polymer?
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Is it acceptable to engrave it into the polymer?
I always test before I engrave on metal on plastic of some sort to see if I like the look but actually most times on poly etc I will use the laser
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Since the receiver is two pieces bolted together, would you have to engrave it on the half of the receiver that has the serial number?
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Guessing from the photo from CZ-USA, I'm thinking the right side piece is classified as the receiver. Kind of like the ride side plate on a 1919 is the receiver, although there has to be many more parts that fit together to make the box.
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Since the receiver is two pieces bolted together, would you have to engrave it on the half of the receiver that has the serial number?
Actually only the serial number needs to go on the receiver
ATF 5300.4 in 27 CFR 479.102 (page 92) describes what is necessary to engrave on a SBR or SBS when one is manufacturing.
1) On the Frame or Receiver the Serial number;
2) On the frame, receiver, or barrel the following additional information;
A)The model;
B)The caliber or gage;
C)Your name or name of the Trust in the case of a Trust (no abbreviations are permitted for the Trust name);
D)The city and state (you can abbreviate the state with the official 2 digit state code)
The above mentioned information must be engraved, casted, stamped (impressing) or otherwise conspicuously placed or caused to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size of the Serial number shall be no smaller than 1/16 inch.
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Thanks guys for all the info
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I had mine engraved right above the factory cz engraving so it blends in.
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Good idea. When I get around to doing mine that sounds like a good move.
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"I had mine engraved right above the factory cz engraving so it blends in."
Can you post a picture? Who did the engraving and how much did it cost you?
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Identmarking in Rockwall Texas did it. I think it was $55. I called to make sure they could do it. They use laser engraving and it turned out pretty good I will try and get a pic tomorrow and post it up.
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(http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh311/ttyner1212/aac/scorpion%20engraving_zpsxcbfgwd7.jpg)
There you go
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Nice, thanks.
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Bumping just not to have to make a new thread regarding engraving.
I've got my form 1 submitted electronically, so now the wait begins.. but I'm trying to get prepared for when/if I get approved.
Does the "clam shell" receiver disassemble to be able to fit in the engraver machines? I plan on getting it engraved like subinoob - right above the CZ-USA markings. I honestly haven't had much time to play with the pistol yet to check for myself.
(I've actually never SBR'd or had a gun engraved before, so it's all new to me.)
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In speaking with my local ATF agent, there is no requirement to engrave the receiver of a SBR if you are not selling it. Engraving is for FFL 02's that create SBR's for sale.
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In speaking with my local ATF agent, there is no requirement to engrave the receiver of a SBR if you are not selling it. Engraving is for FFL 02's that create SBR's for sale.
negative.
https://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2010/03/batfe-engraving-requirements-f.html
click on the ATF 5300.4 link to take you to the actual atf document. you must engrave your name (or trust name) along with city and state (state can be abbreviated) on the receiver. there are more specifics in the document too, the depth of the engraving, etc.
your local ATF agent doesnt know the laws he is enforcing. this is common problem among law enforcement.... ::)
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In speaking with my local ATF agent, there is no requirement to engrave the receiver of a SBR if you are not selling it. Engraving is for FFL 02's that create SBR's for sale.
I've seen a lot of people with opinions on both sides but I'm definitely doing it just to be safe.
Also, I've seen this person who got a response from the ATF regarding converting an existing firearm to an SBR and the engraving requirements.
(http://i.imgur.com/XCKS4sf.jpg)
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yeah, i have saw that letter, but IMHO, the weight of an opinion letter issued nearly a decade ago is pale in comparison to the plain language regs that you can find on the ATFs website today.
Fellas, I just dropped off mine this morning, its costing me a whooping $25 bucks to have it done.
its such a minor amount of money to make sure you are legal you would be a fool not to do it. Not only that, but if someone breaks into my house and steals my EVO, good luck pawning it or selling to someone when it has my name engraved on the side of it. 8)
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I agree. I plan on keeping this firearm forever. I don't mind putting my trust name on it to be on the safe side. I just wish I knew more about this process when making my trust name.
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dethrok, I have the same letter, you just saved me the trouble of finding it so I could post it! This is just another one of those "clear as mud" opinions of the ATF! My understanding has always been that if you are "making" an SBR by "converting" an existing firearm, you can "adopt" the manufacturers markings on the Form 1. All of mine (so far, knock on wood) have been approved that way.
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Okay never was a manufacture of class three.{but was ffl/sot for 38 years,}how did a individual become a licensed Manufacture all of a sudden by doing a stock on the back of a Scorpion. to make a pistol SBR.
the pistol is already manufactured by CZ and imported legally. so all we are doing is putting on a folding stock.
{ or say a guy wants a a.o.w. and just puts on a front grip.no stock nothing else. two screw on grip. which he also can take off or on in one minute.
is that considered a Manufacturer or modifier?. Or is it magic ? wait the grip is on, now its off...now on again.
I always was under the belief if a person changed something, not being licensed at all, no C&R, No FFL. or SOT
they could make the change with the form one.for their own use.{not for resale}
and mark barrel. and not any receiver.and I guess A.O.W. needs nothing for grip.. its not permanent is it?
and in the SBR Scorpion. you remove the stock you are back to pistol. There is no law that I am aware off that says once stock is off its not a legal pistol.{ just the paperwork you have showing its SBR'ED now.
a sbr Uzi. remove barrel from 10 to 16. you can sell as a carbine once notified to remove from sbr status.
> Maybe because imported as a pistol<from former Subgun is the issue.
I know its a tangled web.but I am sure glad at one point. CZ got them here in country...
are we changing a status? not manufacturing a Scorpion.somebody explain? thanks
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Lol You are dealing with the US government where it is now considered re manufacturing a weapon by placing a arm brace against your shoulder.
Okay never was a manufacture of class three.{but was ffl/sot for 38 years,}how did a individual become a licensed Manufacture all of a sudden by doing a stock on the back of a Scorpion. to make a pistol SBR.
the pistol is already manufactured by CZ and imported legally. so all we are doing is putting on a folding stock.
{ or say a guy wants a a.o.w. and just puts on a front grip.no stock nothing else. two screw on grip. which he also can take off or on in one minute.
is that considered a Manufacturer or modifier?. Or is it magic ? wait the grip is on, now its off...now on again.
I always was under the belief if a person changed something, not being licensed at all, no C&R, No FFL. or SOT
they could make the change with the form one.for their own use.{not for resale}
and mark barrel. and not any receiver.and I guess A.O.W. needs nothing for grip.. its not permanent is it?
and in the SBR Scorpion. you remove the stock you are back to pistol. There is no law that I am aware off that says once stock is off its not a legal pistol.{ just the paperwork you have showing its SBR'ED now.
a sbr Uzi. remove barrel from 10 to 16. you can sell as a carbine once notified to remove from sbr status.
> Maybe because imported as a pistol<from former Subgun is the issue.
I know its a tangled web.but I am sure glad at one point. CZ got them here in country...
are we changing a status? not manufacturing a Scorpion.somebody explain? thanks
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FORM 1 top of the form
"Application To Make Or Register A Firearm"
Make
verb
1.
form (something) by putting parts together or combining substances; construct; create.
"my grandmother made a dress for me"
synonyms: construct, build, assemble, put together, manufacture, produce, fabricate, create, form, fashion, model
When you "Make" an SBR you are the maker same as manufacturer to the SBR state you may not be the original maker/manufacturer but then they are not likely the original manufacturer of 100% of the materials used to get to the state where they are the manufacturer but for the sake of a firearm and the ATF then thats where they become interested.
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Okay never was a manufacture of class three.{but was ffl/sot for 38 years,}how did a individual become a licensed Manufacture all of a sudden by doing a stock on the back of a Scorpion. to make a pistol SBR.
the pistol is already manufactured by CZ and imported legally. so all we are doing is putting on a folding stock.
{ or say a guy wants a a.o.w. and just puts on a front grip.no stock nothing else. two screw on grip. which he also can take off or on in one minute.
is that considered a Manufacturer or modifier?. Or is it magic ? wait the grip is on, now its off...now on again.
I always was under the belief if a person changed something, not being licensed at all, no C&R, No FFL. or SOT
they could make the change with the form one.for their own use.{not for resale}
and mark barrel. and not any receiver.and I guess A.O.W. needs nothing for grip.. its not permanent is it?
and in the SBR Scorpion. you remove the stock you are back to pistol. There is no law that I am aware off that says once stock is off its not a legal pistol.{ just the paperwork you have showing its SBR'ED now.
a sbr Uzi. remove barrel from 10 to 16. you can sell as a carbine once notified to remove from sbr status.
> Maybe because imported as a pistol<from former Subgun is the issue.
I know its a tangled web.but I am sure glad at one point. CZ got them here in country...
are we changing a status? not manufacturing a Scorpion.somebody explain? thanks
Once the form 1 is approved the EVO becomes an SBR the stock has nothing to do with it being an SBR the law is clear that a barreled receiver is an SBR (Under 16") remove the barrel then its no longer an SBR, remove the stock and leave the barrel its an SBR with the stock removed
The only way to avoid an EVO as an SBR submitting a form 1 is to remove the barrel and not have it in your keep before your form is approved and not obtain the barrel back until you are ready to fit it
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https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/if-removal-and-destruction-or-disposition-short-barrel-removes-firearm-purview-nfa-there (https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/if-removal-and-destruction-or-disposition-short-barrel-removes-firearm-purview-nfa-there)
If removal and destruction or disposition of the short barrel removes the firearm from the purview NFA, is there a minimum time period the barrel must remain unattached for the firearm to not be regulated under the NFA?
The temporary removal of the barrel for repair or change of caliber does not remove a NFA firearm from the purview of the NFA. If the registrant maintains control of the parts required for assembly of a SBR, he or she must maintain the registration as a SBS or SBS regardless of the length of time that the barrel is unattached.
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Note no stock mentioned
What is the registered part of a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) or Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS)?
While a receiver alone may be classified as a ?firearm? under the Gun Control Act (GCA), SBRs and SBSs are classified in totality under the National Firearms Act (NFA). A firearm that meets the definition of a SBR consists of a rifle that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length. A SBS consists of a shotgun that has a barrel less than 18 inches in length. The serialized receiver is recorded for registration in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR).
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And just to show that you cannot just flip flop to move items to non NFA states or to suit what you want to call it time to time various,now you could say "I will leave the barrel at home" This still is you having control of it
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/if-i-remove-short-barrel-my-sbr-or-sbs-may-i-move-firearm-across-state-lines-without (https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/if-i-remove-short-barrel-my-sbr-or-sbs-may-i-move-firearm-across-state-lines-without)
If I remove the short barrel from my SBR or SBS, may I move the firearm across state lines without the submission of ATF Form 5320.20, Application to Transport or to Temporarily Export Certain Firearms?
If the registrant retains control over the parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm is still be subject to all requirements of the NFA. ATF recommends contacting law enforcement officials in the destination state to ensure compliance with state and local law.
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Pedro thanks for the updated info. now you know partly why after 38 years ffl/sot I got out. and I can mark the barrel if stock is put on correct? or is it in stone on the rec. only.and no other place. I remember getting M3A1 GREASEGUNS imported and they stamped the barrels only. too many changes to all the laws they have now and too many flip flop's on when they issued directive's. anyhow thanks for that great input. and have a good week.
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Form 1 back this Monday and heading over to engraver along with a few other SBRs now approved that need branding as well. Engraver was cool but worried it might need to be milled out down to metal and then engraved to be legal. Based on this thread, going to just put it right on top of CZ logo and be done. This crap is so silly it hurts my head - bunch of law abiding citizens paying a random tax and then killing ourselves trying to figure out what this TLA (3-letter agency) wants at a given moment in time on a brand new model weapon ... Argh!! Now, for the stock conversion. Oh boy.
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There's no requirement your marking (aside from the serial number) be in metal.
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So now you don't have to mark it. man I am lost on this one. and if its registered as SBR. we go out and remove the stock. its still registered whether the stock is on it or not.
and who is running around with these at every public range screaming see what I got lookee lookee. guess if I am legal!!
it's madness I tell you madness.
sbr it and be done with it.
its not a device of mass destruction.. :-X
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In speaking with my local ATF agent, there is no requirement to engrave the receiver of a SBR if you are not selling it. Engraving is for FFL 02's that create SBR's for sale.
My returned Form 1 came with a notice on it in red ink that said my SBR EVO was required to have the maker's name, city, and state stamped on the firearm. Since it's on the Form 1 I take it that the BATFE expects it to be on there whether you intend to sell it or not.
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In speaking with my local ATF agent, there is no requirement to engrave the receiver of a SBR if you are not selling it. Engraving is for FFL 02's that create SBR's for sale.
I was going to cite numerous subject matter experts to let you know your ATF agent gave you bad advice. There are plenty of sources to substantiate that you MUST, engrave you new SBR with your into. Now, are there enough ATF agents to go to every Form 1 holder and inspect for engravings, no. But if you use your SBR in self defense or it gets stolen and they recover it COULD they jack you up if they wanted to, yes the could.
Here is Adam Kraut?s video regarding the mark/engraving of Form 1 SBRs with links to pertinent laws, and he?s an actual gun lawyer.
https://youtu.be/fMnYEW54Ucc (https://youtu.be/fMnYEW54Ucc)
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You shouldn't have to seperate the receiver halves to get it engraved.
I had mine laser engraved just above the pistol grip on the right side where there is a narrow flat strip. The text height and depth is to batf requirement, but it's barely noticeable, which is how I wanted it.
I stripped mine down as much as I easily could: field strip and sights.
Call your engraver, explain what you need done and hammer out the details with them. Iirc, it took about 3 days and cost about $50.
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Veritas Machining. Veteran owned, did my Scorpion and ARs. They will send you a proof before they proceed for approval before any work is done. With 2 day shipping on both ends- one week turn around. Cost w/ shipping about $70.
https://www.veritasmachiningllc.com/ (https://www.veritasmachiningllc.com/)
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Short answer - yes, you can disassemble the "clam shell." However, it's a pain in the rear if you all you're doing is engraving/lazering. I disassembled mine, but only because I had it cerecoted:
(https://i.imgur.com/0VBecvm.jpg)
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I had mine engraved onto the metal serial number plate located on the right half. I also have a small trust name, so it fit on there fine.
Veritas Machining. Veteran owned, did my Scorpion and ARs. They will send you a proof before they proceed for approval before any work is done. With 2 day shipping on both ends- one week turn around. Cost w/ shipping about $70.
https://www.veritasmachiningllc.com/ (https://www.veritasmachiningllc.com/)
That's who's done my SBRs. Great guy and great quality!
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I had mine laser-engraved by Tar Heel (https://tarheelstatefirearms.com/). Good work and quick turnaround. (I chose them based on recommendations on this forum).
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I had mine laser-engraved by Tar Heel (https://tarheelstatefirearms.com/). Good work and quick turnaround. (I chose them based on recommendations on this forum).
Tar Heel is awesome, fast and cheap comparatively. Did my form1 sbr and suppressor.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Several engravers I've spoken to have said laser engraving your manufacturer info doesn't meet the minimum engraving depth requirements of the ATF. They recommended mill engraving to meet the depth.
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here's what the BATFE says about marking (27 CFR 478.92 a1i:
For firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch;
The engraver should be able to vary the depth, based on material. From what I read, .01" on acrylic plastic is doable.
The VeritasMachiningLLC website explains a lot and their rates are good.
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OK, maybe they were assuming aluminum or I may be remembering what they told me about aluminum. I know I've read about some people having their aluminum receivers laser engraved just assuming it's fine.
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I'm sure it has a lot to do with what machine you are using and its capabilities.
What I'm reading is that newer laser machines have no trouble reaching the .003" depth in Al.
I also can't see BATF going after you solely because you asked for .003" depth, paid for it, and only received .0025" depth.
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This thread needed a bump
Here's where my guy engraved it on my Micro
(http://enterprisesports.net/CZ_Engrave.png)
(http://enterprisesports.net/CZ_Engrave2.png)