The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ75, 75b, 75 SAO inc the Transitional => Topic started by: Jesse1904 on May 15, 2015, 06:56:33 PM
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Hi I recently purchased a CZ 75-B in 04/15 brand new. 9mm.
I've gone to the range 4 times, and out of the 4 times, there has been at least one jam per visit. FTE / Stove piping. Has happened to 4 different people on both magazines.
The first time, brand new out of the box (first range visit), I used fmj Federal Aluminum ammo from Walmart.
Figured it was the aluminum that was causing the jam.
The second time after a clean and breakdown of the gun, I used fmj Winchester white box 9mm ammo from Walmart and it was jamming again.
Out of 800+ rounds so far, it has jammed a total of 8 times.
I've done 4 breakdowns/cleaning of the gun extremely thoroughly.
Here's a video of the jam in action; You can see at the end of the video, the casing is still stuck in the barrel/slide while the new bullet is getting pushed up through the magazine.
https://youtu.be/m66nBB6oOmA
https://youtu.be/RvAu7qMyHhY
I have not contacted CZ yet, but was hoping maybe it's just a beak in period to loosen the spring or slide.
Thanks
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Are you getting stovepipes? Hard to tell in your videos. The only stoppage I have ever had with a CZ, was caused by the bullet nose engaging the slide stop. Easily remedied by trimming the nub on the stop.
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the cartridge doesn't fully exit the barrel causing the jam.
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Stovepipe... slide isn't cycling all the way back (or cycling too fast), not giving the spent cartridge shell enough time to eject. Could be the ammo (not enough pressure) or the recoil spring (too heavy). Thoughts?
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First off, Welcome to the forum Jessie.
How wet are you running it? Make sure you have plenty of lube on the slide rails. I've never had issues with WWB myself. It could be the ammo, but most of the time on these questions it seems that not enough lube was used. Not sayin this is your issue, just that it's a good place to start.
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CZs have a fairly light recoil spring, usually tossing brass 20+ feet, so weak ammo usually wont stop them. They did have weak extractor spring issues, as wolff sells extra power springs to fix that. 4 jams in 500rds is not really terrible, but not good in a defensive gun. Use the 2yr warranty before it expires, or call them.
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First off, Welcome to the forum Jessie.
How wet are you running it? Make sure you have plenty of lube on the slide rails. I've never had issues with WWB myself. It could be the ammo, but most of the time on these questions it seems that not enough lube was used. Not sayin this is your issue, just that it's a good place to start.
Hi, thanks for the welcome. I love my CZ and they are so aesthetically pleasing.
When I oiled up the rails the first break down after the jam, I sprayed it very thoroughly with the spray nozzle (also using Q-tips to get in the areas I can't reach.) thinking it would solve the issue,
The second breakdown I did a standard oil job, not lean or too drenched. But a more thorough clean.
I'm going to test the gun out again tomorrow and hopefully I have no issues.
And I just looked up what stovepiping is, and it does fit the description. FTE in most cases is what's happening.
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When I oiled up the rails the first break down after the jam, I sprayed it very thoroughly with the spray nozzle (also using Q-tips to get in the areas I can't reach.) thinking it would solve the issue,
Just use some grease in those rails, if there is to much grease it will come off in the first couple times the slide cycles.
If it jams again get as much detail as possible, is the mag hard to pull out? what is the position of the first round in the mag? is the round hard to extract? anything you can record can be helpful.
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If the slide is not coming back far enough to hit the ejector or catch the next round, it is usually due to the gun being tight and new. Sounds like you have done the oil and lube right. Also make sure you get a touch of oil on the hammer where the slide contacts it, and make sure the hammer action is smooth, check it by hand. If the hammer isn't binding, the slide is lubed, and the frame isn't interfering, check the recoil rod and spring and make sure it isn't binding. Clean the chamber also.
I would sure try some different ammo also. A tight new gun and a lightly loaded ammo will result in FTE's and stovepipes like you have described. I couldn't shoot my normal soft shooting match ammo in any new gun. I had to break them in with something a little stouter, then switch over and the guns would then run fine.
Don't give up on it yet. If it is just a little tight, when it loosens up just a little, it will be a great shooter from then on.
Joe
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After 500 rounds, it should be broken in by now. I would actually lean towards the recoil spring being too strong than too weak.
My SP-01 came with what felt like a 22 pound recoil spring; I only found out later that it's supposed to be 16. It didn't jam on me, but it always bothered me that it was so out of spec; I wondered if they used the spring meant for a .40 pistol.
Anyway, if it"s too heavy, the timing gets thrown off and it won't capture the next round properly. CZ Custom and Cajun Gun Works sell recoil springs for I think $8.
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Were the jams like the ones I had? If so a 12 pound recoil spring fixed everything.
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=70974.0 (http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=70974.0)
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After 500 rounds, it should be broken in by now. I would actually lean towards the recoil spring being too strong than too weak.
Oops, missed the 500 rounds. I agree, try a lighter spring.
Joe
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not extracting?
usually extractor or recoil spring.
check extractor, make sure its intact.
check behind extractor to make sure no build up of carbon, etc.
check extractor spring. good tension.
check recoil spring, make sure not too heavy for the ammo you are using. try speer lawman or few round of a good defensive ammo ( usually a little more velocity in those)
Make sure you are well lubed.
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I've seen this before and believe that you are having Extractor issues. Send it in to Cz-USA and get them to fix it for you, so long as it's under warranty.
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Question to those with more experience with these things:
Taking the shooter out of the equation, if it's a problem with one or more of the parts (i.e. extractor spring, extractor, recoil spring, etc.), and I'm assuming these components maintain the same performance in between each consecutive shot (i.e. during the same shooting range session), wouldn't the only variable be each individual cartridge?
If so, then wouldn't this (ammo) partly explain why less than 1% of the cartridges caused a failure? For example, maybe the recoil spring is on the heavy side, and 1 cartridge just happens to not have enough pressure, causing the slide to not move all the way back thereby not giving enough time for the spent casing to get ejected. Does this make sense?
I guess what I'm trying to understand, since I can only base this on others' collective posts and my very limited personal experience with these failures, is how one can determine that the problem is a specific component if that component itself performs well at least 99% of the time and then somewhere in the middle of 500+ rounds it does not perform adequately enough.
Sorry if this has been asked before and if this is starting to get off-topic. I'm just trying to gain a better understanding of how to isolate a faulty component amidst all these interrelated mechanisms working together.
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i didnt look at the vids.
But what comes to mind and not in any order.
> limp wristing
> ammo
If you have done any mods to the gun that would be great to know.
edit to add.
> could be mag related too.
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Both my CZs had a little trouble with 115 grain cheap ammo when they were new. I shot 124 grain NATO rounds as well, when the guns only had a few rounds through them, and those functioned fine, no issues. After a few hundred rounds, they would both cycle with the 115 grain ammo. I've since put lighter recoil springs in both, and haven't had any issues since.
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Came from the range again, used WWB ammo 115 grain.
200 rounds, it jamed on me once, and my friend once.
https://youtu.be/RvAu7qMyHhY
I'm going to use the warranty and send it back to CZ to get it fixed. hopefully its a quick turn around.
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Just another thought: Did you notice if the jams were all from the same mag or both mags?
Where/How far away are your spent cases dropping?
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it happened on both mags.
my spent casings are usually flying out, hitting the wall or going into my hoodie/etc.
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I have the exact problem with my 85. It drove me nuts, I went to 2 gunsmiths and it wouldn't come right. I replaced the extractor and greased the rails and worked off the tightness from the new spray and voila it works like a sewing machine haven't had an issue since
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Google WalMart ammo problems, probably has to be at least a million hits for this. I refuse to buy anything at Walmart, let alone ammo as their 'everyday low prices' really just means we forced the manufacturers to cut corners with their product to sell it to us cheaper.
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Came from the range again, used WWB ammo 115 grain.
200 rounds, it jamed on me once, and my friend once.
https://youtu.be/RvAu7qMyHhY
I'm going to use the warranty and send it back to CZ to get it fixed. hopefully its a quick turn around.
Winchester White box 115 gr stuff are low power loads. Commonly used to on older ie WII P.38's so as to damage them. I carry +P in my CZ-75 pre B and it has a Wolf 18 pound spring in it. The pistol has never has jammed shooting those. My reloads are hot too and I have never had a jam with them either. Shoot a magazine with of some flavor of +P ammo and see it you still getting stovepipes etc. Then think about sending it back to CZ.
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Winchester White box 115 gr stuff are low power loads. Commonly used to on older ie WII P.38's so as to damage them. I carry +P in my CZ-75 pre B and it has a Wolf 18 pound spring in it. The pistol has never has jammed shooting those. My reloads are hot too and I have never had a jam with them either. Shoot a magazine with of some flavor of +P ammo and see it you still getting stovepipes etc. Then think about sending it back to CZ.
None of my three Walther P38's have ever had a problem from lower powered ammunition, such as Winchester White Box. I seriously doubt that shooting +P level ammunition will cure the OP's feeding problems and continuous usage of +P level ammunition will only serve to shorten any Pistol's Service life.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/548/3949P38s_3.jpg)
WWII P38 and 2 Post War P38's
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Winchester White box 115 gr stuff are low power loads. Commonly used to on older ie WII P.38's so as to damage them. I carry +P in my CZ-75 pre B and it has a Wolf 18 pound spring in it. The pistol has never has jammed shooting those. My reloads are hot too and I have never had a jam with them either. Shoot a magazine with of some flavor of +P ammo and see it you still getting stovepipes etc. Then think about sending it back to CZ.
None of my three Walther P38's have ever had a problem from lower powered ammunition, such as Winchester White Box. I seriously doubt that shooting +P level ammunition will cure the OP's feeding problems and continuous usage of +P level ammunition will only serve to shorten any Pistol's Service life.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/548/3949P38s_3.jpg)
WWII P38 and 2 Post War P38's
I just recomended one mag worh of +P to see if that would still produce the jams. In a gun designed for +P rounds thos rounds will not shorten that guns life appreciably.
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I don't have the answer to your problem, but I doubt there's an issue with "light loads" in WWB or other "cheap ammo." I run nothing but handloads in my two CZ 75Bs and four Beretta 92s. I load to just exceed the required "Power Factor" of 125 for USPSA and IDPA. My loads of PF 130 are 124 gr bullet at about 1050 fps. This is lighter than any 9mm factory ammunition.
I have no problems with this load in any of the six guns mentioned, nor in two LC9s. All have factory recoil springs. I'm talking tens of thousands of rounds.
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Winchester White box 115 gr stuff are low power loads. Commonly used to on older ie WII P.38's so as to damage them. I carry +P in my CZ-75 pre B and it has a Wolf 18 pound spring in it. The pistol has never has jammed shooting those. My reloads are hot too and I have never had a jam with them either. Shoot a magazine with of some flavor of +P ammo and see it you still getting stovepipes etc. Then think about sending it back to CZ.
None of my three Walther P38's have ever had a problem from lower powered ammunition, such as Winchester White Box. I seriously doubt that shooting +P level ammunition will cure the OP's feeding problems and continuous usage of +P level ammunition will only serve to shorten any Pistol's Service life.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/548/3949P38s_3.jpg)
WWII P38 and 2 Post War P38's
I just recomended one mag worh of +P to see if that would still produce the jams. In a gun designed for +P rounds thos rounds will not shorten that guns life appreciably.
He had 4 jams in 500 rounds fired, very good odds a mags worth of anything would fail....
Fwiw, I have never seen a CZ with a strong enough recoil spring for weak ammo to stovepipe. My brass always lands 20' away, or more.
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Hmmm, I'm going to try to weaken the spring by keeping the gun slide locked back to see if this helps. I will try what others mentioned of replacing the spring to a weaker one to see if it might help.
The turn around time to send it to CZ is almost 1-2 months. I will try quicker fixes first before sending it to them.
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Were the jams like the ones I had? If so a 12 pound recoil spring fixed everything.
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=70974.0 (http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=70974.0)
I don't see a 12lb spring on CZ custom, only a 13lb and 11lb.
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Just an FYI, springs won't lose their stiffness by keeping them compressed. They weaken over repeated compression/expansion. Now, although I did not replace the recoil spring on my 75B Omega, I did replace the one in my P-07 to the 15-lb recoil spring from CGW. (I don't shoot as often as others, so I wanted to accelerate this process.)
Probably a quick yet inexpensive possible fix is to get a slightly lighter recoil spring:
http://www.cajungunworks.com/spring_kits.html -- towards the bottom, $6 each + shipping.
Word of caution: don't get the very light recoil springs unless you're going to replace additional parts (i.e. extended firing pin for starters).
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thank you, I will go with a 13lb spring first to see if this will fix the issue since 14lb is OEM.
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A lighter recoil spring may help.
My 75B is using an 11# recoil spring for my 130+ PF comp. reloads and tosses the cases around 6-8 feet. CGW lists this as properly tuned to the load. Your WWB ammo may run better with one similar: 11#-12#. 14# is the stock 75B spring.
The CZ Custom 75s also come with an 11# spring normally.
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Many problems can be solved with good cleaning, cheap ammo especially steel cased stuff has wax on case this builds up in
chamber will cause a malfunction. I always use a brush on chamber. On a new gun I run them very wet have grease hitting my glasses not unusual but for me it works, my 75B has never failed, reloads or walmart stuff however I will not use steel cased ammo in any of my guns.
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I had this same issue with my 75B Omega. Contacted CJW (was planning some new parts anyway, figured I would get there input while I'm at it.) they told me the cz75b is is set up from the factory more towards defensive +P ammo. And cheap range ammo (they named win white box specifically) may not cycle correctly. I stopped shooting it and have not had a jam since. I have had good luck with federal aluminum case though.
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if i had to guess i would still blame the ammo. My cz75 will run everything 100% except winchester white-box and aguila (which comes out of a former winchester factory). I suspect that that aluminum cased ammo is probably underpowered as well.
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Tecnos makes Aguila in Mexico at a plant previously set up by Remington .