The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => Curio and Relic CZs => Topic started by: Thrdofmny on October 31, 2015, 04:23:04 PM
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I've recently purchased a Cz-52 9mm. The serial numbers match on the barrel and the pistol body. I can tell from the markings that it has been recalled once and fixed. It has none of the markings showing the barrel was added later. It is in good shape and a fun shooter. It has the original brittle firing pin and non hardened rollers.
My questions:
1. How rare is this gun? I've searched online and can't find many of these with matching numbers.
2. I bought it for $175. How did I do? Came with one clip and the promise if he finds the other one then he'll deliver it.
3. I've read different things about which came first, the 9mm or the Russian barrel.
4. Would I help the value of the gun by replacing the pin and rollers or hurt it? I've put two hundred rounds through it with no issue.
Forgive any mistakes or assumptions in my past. I look forward to your response.
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Almost forgot, it is stamped with the swords and the number 53. Meaning manufactured in 1953, I believe.
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The CZ52, if I recall correctly, was originally built to use 9mm Para and the Czechs ended up using the 7.62mm Tokarev because of Soviet "encouragement." If your serial numbers match and its an original 9mm Para barrel (not a later made drop-in barrel) you have a real cool find. I think replacing rollers is really a judgment call. I have not replaced the rollers in my CZ52 and its going strong firing the "hotter" 7.62 Tokarev ammo. You really need to post some images!
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Thanks. The more I read and find out the more excited about it I am. I'll try to post the pics tonight or tomorrow on this thread.
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Thanks. I can't wait to see this weapon.
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(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/320xq90/r/908/22xpI3.jpg)
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(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/320xq90/r/910/PSzq8u.jpg)
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(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/320xq90/r/908/R0rmvi.jpg)
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(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/320xq90/r/907/i3GXBM.jpg)
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(https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/320xq90/r/911/gJBnke.jpg)
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Wow! Nice score.
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Thanks! I'm very pleased with it.
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Nice! Love to hear a range report once you shoot it.
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Fired almost 200 rounds. Half Winchester and half Federal. The Winchester had 2 failure to eject. The Federal did fine. The gun did need some cleaning and oiling before going out. Pretty sure that was the problem.
It is a fun gun to shoot, albeit a loud gun to shoot. Almost no kick. I'm not making claims to accuracy because I'm fairly new to all this and my aim needs some range time. I will say the more I fired it, the more sure I was that if I'm ever attacked by Coke cans that I could defend myself properly.
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That's great. The 52 has great point and shoot ergonomics. Sounds like the 9mm is the way to go. The 7.62 Tok was like shooting a flash bang!
No one has mentioned the price but that was a great deal for an average 52. I would buy another today at that price. Not sure how many years ago I sold mine for $180 but it had beautiful Houge wood grips. I couldn't tell you what I bought.
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Since you mentioned the 7.62, I've read of people swapping out the barrels. Normally they are going from the 7.62 to a 9mm. Any idea of any special steps needed to go from a 9 to a 7.62, if you had the barrel? The all knowing Internet make it sound as simple as changing out barrels.
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I never swapped it out but back in the day there were several kits on the market. Thought it was just the barrel and a spacer for the mag so it fed correctly.
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That's great. The 52 has great point and shoot ergonomics. Sounds like the 9mm is the way to go. The 7.62 Tok was like shooting a flash bang!
No one has mentioned the price but that was a great deal for an average 52. I would buy another today at that price. Not sure how many years ago I sold mine for $180 but it had beautiful Houge wood grips. I couldn't tell you what I bought.
You have to admit it is fun to shoot 7.62 Tokarev rounds.
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Your 9x19mm CZ52 is a great find at a great price. I suspect that it is a pretty rare bird - congratulations!
I have known guys that would pay that much just for a 9x19mm CZ52 Barrel alone.
If you want to try the Tokarev rounds, a 7.62x25mm barrel is usually not hard to find and not very expensive. If that CZ52 with the matching numbers 9mm barrel was mine, I would shoot nothing but the 9mm Luger cartridges in it. You can fairly easily find a 7.62x25mm Tokarev CZ52 'shooter' down the line.
Happy shooting ...
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You and I think alike. I wouldn't mind getting a "twin" in a 7.62. No idea how I'm going to explain that to the wife...
Thanks for the comments and advice.
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You and I think alike. I wouldn't mind getting a "twin" in a 7.62. No idea how I'm going to explain that to the wife...
Thanks for the comments and advice.
Tell her that it is a matching set.
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Exactly.
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You and I think alike. I wouldn't mind getting a "twin" in a 7.62. No idea how I'm going to explain that to the wife...
Thanks for the comments and advice.
Don't tell her and don't let her see them together. Then you can just claim it is a single pistol.
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You people are geniuses. Gun and marriage advice. Where have you been all my life? :)
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I don't believe there were any Czech made CZ52's which were originally made with 9mm barrels. To the best of my knowledge only the original prototype(s) were chambered in 9mm. The Soviets insisted on 7.62x25 and rejected the 9mm prototypes so there was a redesign. The crossed swords is the military acceptance mark. So a military accepted 1953 vz52 would have been chambered in 7.62x25 originally.
If I recall correctly there were some which were rebarreled to 9mm before import for the express purpose of meeting U.S. demand for the ability to shoot in that caliber. It's possible that this is what you have. I suppose that might make it more desirable to collectors than one with an after-market 9mm barrel, but it would only be a matter of degrees. Based on what you've written, it is not an ultra-valuable collector's gun, though, by virtue of what seems to be a factory refurb 9mm barrel, it is a bit more valuable, similar to the ones which were chromed by the importer prior to civilian sale. You have a neat shooter. Shoot it. Enjoy it.
$175 is a VERY good price these days. The supply has all but dried up and what is seen now is usually on the secondary market. Some will let them go for less or close to what they paid, but most seem to be well into the $300 or more. Which is still a spank'n good deal on an all-steel, full sized, duty handgun in a screaming caliber. :)
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
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You may be right on everything you've written, and I appreciate your comments. I've read in some places that the 9mm came later like you said and I've also read that the CZ 52 was originally a 9mm and then changed to the 7.62 because of Russian influence. My question is, if my pistol was an original 7.62 and then rechambered (I know some were and I think they had a different stamping on them) then would they go to the trouble of stamping a matching serial number onto a new barrel? If so, that guy's job sucked. Thoughts?
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You may be right on everything you've written, and I appreciate your comments. I've read in some places that the 9mm came later like you said and I've also read that the CZ 52 was originally a 9mm and then changed to the 7.62 because of Russian influence.
It was originally designed in 9mm for the prototype. That design never made to final design. The Soviets vetoed it.
My question is, if my pistol was an original 7.62 and then rechambered (I know some were and I think they had a different stamping on them) then would they go to the trouble of stamping a matching serial number onto a new barrel? If so, that guy's job sucked. Thoughts?
He got paid to refurb a gun. Probably didn't suck any more than any other assembly line refurb.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
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Using your information I broke out my shovel and done some more Internet digging. Found one post claiming that in the 90s Century Arms agreed to buy a large number of CZ-52s if they could be made to shoot the 9mm round. Shortage of ammo being what it was in the 90s. They had 9mm barrels put on. Some had no serial numbers, some different serial numbers than those that appeared on the pistol, and some they put the serial number from the gun on the new barrel. The matching numbers because they knew collectors would want matching numbers. No info was provided as to what a "large number" was or the breakdown on how many of were matching, different or blank. I can't attest to the accuracy of the information but it does blend with what you posted.
The only thing I will point out is the rarity of the 9mm with matching numbers. Anyone can drop a 9mm barrel into a 7.62. Really, it isn't that hard. Then you would have a CZ-52 in a 9mm. The hard part is finding one with matching numbers. I've looked. (You'll probably post links to a dozen of them since I said that. Honestly, I hope you do. I'd like to see what they go for.) For some, this won't mean a thing. For some, the matching numbers will mean everything. If nothing else, it makes me happy.
All that said, I appreciate the info and I'll keep digging for more. I'll post anything worth sharing.
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Found this information on a site that was trying to sell a Cz52 9mm. Kind of interesting. Maybe some of you knew this already. Apparently, Zbrojovko Brno (CZ52 factory) proof-marked pistols converted to 9mm at the factory. This pistol is marked "ZB 4658 95." I want to thank Jim for sharing the following information with me: =========================================================================== "Your pistol will have a small number stamped on the forward right side of the receiver, next to the ""Lion N"" proof, in the format: ZBxxxx96. This is the PROOF SEQUENCE NUMBER, basically telling you that this pistol was the xxxxth pistol of this type proofed by Zbrojovko Brno in the year 1996 (or whatever year the final two digits indicate)..." =========================================================================== Also, apparently the crest I mention above is another "Lion N." In other words, the lion crest is on the barrel AND on the frame. =========================================================================== =========================================================================== More information from Jim:================================================= In the early 1990s, the vz. 52 was declared surplus and the Ministry of Foreign Trade began releasing them for export sale. Century Arms (CAI) was the first major U.S. purchaser, but after an initial burst of collector interest, sales sagged a bit. In order to restore interest, the Czechs revivied the 9 mm conversion program and directed Zbrojovko Brno to perform the work. Part of the conversion process involved polishing and re-blueing the slides, and those pistols being prepared for CAI were also roll-stamped on the lower left front of the slide, "MOD.52 Mfg. By BRNO In Czech Republic / Imported by CAI ST.ALB.VT." The numerical portion of the pistol's serial number (but not the series prefix) was stamped on the outside of the chamber, along with the caliber designation, "9 mm LUGER." These pistols were commercially proofed after conversion and a proof sequence number was stamped on the right side of the receiver (this is what I have been tracking). To date, only 95 and 96 proof sequence dates have been reported and no sequence number above 6,000 has been observed, indicating that the total number of these conversions probably did not exceed 10,000.============================================================= =========================================================================== CAI apparently figured out that they could beat the cost of the Czech 9 mm conversions, and they began their own 9 mm conversion program by simply re-boring and re-rifling the original 7.62 mm barrels. These pistols were not proofed after conversion, and carry no added markings other than the CAI importer's stamp and the new caliber, "9 MM" stamped on the outside of the chamber. It is also interesting that the rifling on these converted pistols uses a left-hand twist, while the Czech barrels all have a right-hand twist.Apparently, Zbrojovko Brno (CZ52 factory) proof-marked pistols converted to 9mm at the factory. This pistol is marked "ZB 4658 95." I want to thank Jim for sharing the following information with me: =========================================================================== "Your pistol will have a small number stamped on the forward right side of the receiver, next to the ""Lion N"" proof, in the format: ZBxxxx96. This is the PROOF SEQUENCE NUMBER, basically telling you that this pistol was the xxxxth pistol of this type proofed by Zbrojovko Brno in the year 1996 (or whatever year the final two digits indicate)..." =========================================================================== Also, apparently the crest I mention above is another "Lion N." In other words, the lion crest is on the barrel AND on the frame. =========================================================================== =========================================================================== More information from Jim:================================================= In the early 1990s, the vz. 52 was declared surplus and the Ministry of Foreign Trade began releasing them for export sale. Century Arms (CAI) was the first major U.S. purchaser, but after an initial burst of collector interest, sales sagged a bit. In order to restore interest, the Czechs revivied the 9 mm conversion program and directed Zbrojovko Brno to perform the work. Part of the conversion process involved polishing and re-blueing the slides, and those pistols being prepared for CAI were also roll-stamped on the lower left front of the slide, "MOD.52 Mfg. By BRNO In Czech Republic / Imported by CAI ST.ALB.VT." The numerical portion of the pistol's serial number (but not the series prefix) was stamped on the outside of the chamber, along with the caliber designation, "9 mm LUGER." These pistols were commercially proofed after conversion and a proof sequence number was stamped on the right side of the receiver (this is what I have been tracking). To date, only 95 and 96 proof sequence dates have been reported and no sequence number above 6,000 has been observed, indicating that the total number of these conversions probably did not exceed 10,000.============================================================= =========================================================================== CAI apparently figured out that they could beat the cost of the Czech 9 mm conversions, and they began their own 9 mm conversion program by simply re-boring and re-rifling the original 7.62 mm barrels. These pistols were not proofed after conversion, and carry no added markings other than the CAI importer's stamp and the new caliber, "9 MM" stamped on the outside of the chamber. It is also interesting that the rifling on these converted pistols uses a left-hand twist, while the Czech barrels all have a right-hand twist.
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A lot more detail than I remembered, but basically what I remembered reading.
Like I said, it's a neat shooter. I'm guessing that to the right collector it might be worth several hundred dollars. Without hunting it up (which I'm feeling too lazy to do right now ;) ) I suspect it could be worth as much as $400-$600. That's the price of a pretty decent NIB handgun these days. But I rather doubt you have a $2,000 collectible which you should stick in your gun safe and never shoot. In any case, decent condition CZ 52's are now going for more than the $175 which you paid for this one so you got a really good deal. :)
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
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We were in agreement the whole time! I figured it to be about the same, $4-600. I saw one for sale for $700 but thought that was too high. Not sure if it sold or not. No worries about the never shooting it thing either. I'm looking at local ranges right now.
Thanks again for the help. Your feedback turned me onto some new information I wouldn't have looked for otherwise. I'm still digging.
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And nobody has any Idea as to the Dots! But they are not hardness test since some slides had up to 18 dots and were refurbed only 1 time.
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I saw a post on Harrington's website talking about the dots. They have no significance or none that matters after manufacturing. They are surely not accuracy ratings or of the like. I purposefully didn't mention how many mine had because of it.
In reference to the information I posted about the barrels and some being redone by the Czechs and some being bored out to make it a 9mm, according to the markings, or lack thereof, mine would be from the bored out pile. Assuming that information is correct. Still more searching to be done on that, but it is starting to seem likely.
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Harrington is 100% wrong but their belief was the standard for about the last 20 yrs!
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And that's why I didn't post any information about the dots. No consensus. Accuracy, hardness, some internal manufacturer's mark. No agreement.
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And that's why I didn't post any information about the dots. No consensus. Accuracy, hardness, some internal manufacturer's mark. No agreement.
It's probably some Czech playing an elaborate practical joke. He and his buddies randomly pin-punched them and have been laughing their butts off at us.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
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This is interesting. Found on another old post. Some of it matches with what we think we know and some is a little different or new.
All Vz.52 pistols that went through the Czech government rebuild process that needed refinishing were refinish in grey phosphate - there were no Czech military black phosphate or blued Vz.52?s.
There were no Vz.52?s produced in 9x19 Parabellum, nor was the Vz.52 ever used by the Czech police.
For those interested, here is a bit of history?
Following World War Two the Czechs found themselves without an acceptable military sidearm. They began development of a sidearm, and in the interim used whatever pistols were available (including the Vz.24, Vz.27, Vz.38, and even the Walther P.38 under the nomenclature "Vz.46"). The new pistol was to be chambered for the 9 mm Parabellum cartridge.
In 1948 Ceska Zbrojovka submitted the CZ 482 chambered for the M48 9 mm Parabellum cartridge, and this pistol seemed to hold promise. Perceived deficiencies were noted and solved by Ceska Zbrojovka, resulting in the CZ 491 (also chambered for the M48 9 mm Parabellum cartridge). However by this point in time the Czech Republic had essentially been taken over by a Socialist government and that government was under great pressure from the Soviet Union to adopt the Soviet M30 7.62x25 pistol cartridge as the Czech standard pistol/sub-machinegun cartridge. Ceska Zbrojovka was directed to redesign the CZ 491 to fire the Soviet M30 cartridge and did so during the period 1950 - 1952, resulting in the CZ 513. The CZ 513 was adopted in 1952 as the Vz.52.
There is no such thing as a ?CZ 52? pistol. This is a name made up by the importers, and combines the ?CZ? from the factory designation of this pistol (?CZ 513?) with the year designator from the military designation for this pistol (?Vz.52?) to create a historically meaningless name.
The Vz.52 was not a very satisfactory service pistol. It turned out to be rather delicate, and began to literally fall apart during normal (peace-time!) usage. Consequently, an ongoing inspection and overhaul process was begun, with Vz.52 pistol being regularly inspected and repaired as needed. The most common repair was the staking of pins in place to prevent their 'walking' out of the pistol.
Overhauled pistols were usually, but not always, marked to indicate they had been overhauled. This mark was originally a 'VOZ' (Vojensky Opravarensky Zavod - Military Repair Plant) with or without an overhaul year. Later this stamp was changed to 'VOP' (Vojensky Opravarensky Podnik - Military Repair Enterprise).
The usage of the acronym 'VOP' has caused some confusion, as this same acronym has been used by Czech military intelligence (VOP - Vojenske Obranne Zpravodajstvi), but this is pure happenstance - there is no connection between the VOP stamp on Vz.52 pistols and Czech military intelligence.
Moving on to other things?
The dots found on the top of the slides of most Vz.52 pistols are, as another poster has pointed out, marks left over from hardness testing. They have no significance.
The Lion/Date found on some Vz.52?s is the Czech commercial proof. This one takes a bit of background.
The Czechs released the vast majority of their stocks of Vz.52 pistols onto the surplus market back in the early 1990's. These pistols were unaltered Vz.52's - meaning they retained their original grey parkerizing, were chambered for the 7.52x25 Tokarev cartridge, and had only military markings.
The US market was quickly glutted with these pistols, and it became near impossible for the importers to sell them to distributors. In an attempt to solve this problem the importers (mostly Century Arms International) contracted to have those pistols with the least original finish refinished. Two different finishes were used; black parkerizing and bluing. Those pistol that were blued were usually excessively buffed, resulting the removal or near removal of the original markings.
The refinishing was at first done here in the US, and later in the Czech Republic as the labor cost there was much less. Some of the Vz.52's were refinished at Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka of Brno facility, and may be found so marked.
The refinishing helps sales for a while, but was not a permanent solution to sagging sales. The next solution the importers tried to boost sales was the inclusion of a 9x19 Parabellum barrel with each pistol. These 9x19 barrels were originally 7.62x25, and were converted in the Czech Republic to 9x19. Converted barrels intended for pistols to be sold in the US were not re-proofed, and may be found with military circle 'T' proof marks. Barrels intended for use on pistols sold in Europe were re-proofed commercially, and will have the stamp of the Prague Proof House (Lion/Date). Some of these pistols were diverted to the US market, and that's why we will sometimes see Vz.52's that have commercially proofed barrels.
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No way in HE-L are the Dots Hardness tests! How could a Mint one refurbed 1 time have 18 dots on Slide??????? Be real!!!!!!!!!!! Also Ur wrong about it falling apart in normal use, but after heavy use of the hot Czech ammo some pins needed staking which is normal on many guns after many yrs. and rounds!!
When the CZ 52's were 1st imported most were Mint and had 1 Dot or 0 dots but in later yrs. used 1's showed up with many dots and some had pins staked and many were refurbed and reblued there or some here by Century and those by Century were recalled and they had messed up many!
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I'm sure they meant something at sometime. I could see hardness before accuracy. But arguing about it is moot because we'll probably never know. As mentioned earlier, the Czechs are probably too busy laughing at us to tell us the truth.
As for all the other information, it is something I stumbled across while searching. I don't claim it to be gospel truth. Just interesting. I raised my own eyebrows at the claim of them falling apart. Everything I've read says the opposite. Then again so many of them have the VOP stamp meaning they've been reworked at some point. Who knows.
Until the Czechs put out a book or start coughing up answers then we may never have the answers we want.
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My 52 likes to let the extractor pin wander up so it can throw the extractor and its spring somewhere across the range. I tried a little Loctite, but if it does it again, I'll be testing the automatic center punch as a staking tool.
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Okay, now I'm curious. My own CZ 52 has no dots, nor does it have the "VOP" on it. The stamp on the left side of the frame, forward and left of the trigger, doesn't have the letters "ZB" before the numbers, but the letters "CB". This is the same for the slide, and for the barrel. The serial numbers all match.
Another curious thing, on the underside of the frame, I guess you'd call it the receiver, at the very end, there is another stamp that reads
"CZECH CZ52
7.62TOK"
There is another line under those two, difficult to make out, but it looks like it might say "PAC MDSTO, CA"
All these things combined, I'm beginning to wonder if mine is even an original CZ 52 at all. But it does have the crossed swords and the number 54, indicating a 1954 model, I believe.
Also, this weapon is chambered for the 7.62x25mm Tokarev round. I've already fired it a good number of times. Feels very good, not a great deal of recoil (to me). But
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http://www.m1-garand-rifle.com/cz52/markings.php
You are right on the date. Most of the other markings sound like an importer stamp. Not sure of the CB part. The link above explains some of the markings.
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I suppose, in the end, none of these marking really matter that much to me, other than idle curiousity. It isn't like I will ever sell or give away my CZ. While most would see it as just another gun, it means a lot more than that to me, as it was my Dad's pistol. It was also the last gun that we shot targets with together. So, markings or not, genuine or not, this gun will remain with me until I breathe my last, or have a son to whicb to pass it on.
That said, it IS interesting to learn all those little tidbits about this specific model. So, thank you for putting in all that research. :)
God bless
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Here's some more information on the markings, if you want to read through all of it.
http://www.ai4fr.com/main/page_militaria__collectibles_other_cz_52.html
That's a great story. I wouldn't sell it either.
Thanks for the kind words. I'm just looking for answers.