The Original CZ Forum
CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZF KADET KLUB => Topic started by: painter on February 27, 2017, 08:52:36 PM
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As we all know, most people have issues with light hammer springs in pistols running a Kadet kit. There is a thread floating around where the gentleman did some modifications to his firing pin retaining plate, with good results, and he was able to run a 13lb hammer spring with only the occasional light strike.
I use my Kadet for a bullseye gallery league, and light strikes aren't an option so I've been running a 17lg spring with 100% reliability. I still need to clean the feed ramp and breech face every ~400 rounds to keep the wax buildup from the CCI SV from causing issues. The 17lb spring does make it harder, for me anyway, to keep the gun still when breaking the shot so I've been looking for ways to maintain reliability with the 13lb spring.
Here's what I came up with. I spend some time over at RFC, and those guys are rimfire benchrest freaks. They come up with all kinds of tweaks to maximize every part of rimfire accuracy. One of the tweaks made sense, even to a simple painter. Why use spring energy to crush the very outside of the rim where there is no primer? A stronger spring creates vibration which can cause gun movement, even in a rest. So what they do is modify the striker, or firing pin, so it doesn't hit the very edge of the case and allows the use of a weaker spring while maintaining consistent ignition. In a pistol all I care about is creating the easiest trigger pull and still have it go bang.
What you're looking to do is go from this...
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2856/33118170366_28c1f91f32_o.jpg)
To this...
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/719/33118170456_ddfb6fb7e3.jpg)
Pictures were borrowed from a post on RFC.
So far I have about 160 rounds through it with not a single light strike, and I'm running a 13lb spring. This is with two different kinds of ammo. CCI SV and some S&B surplus ammo that came from Czeckpoint that hasn't been 100% even with the 17lb spring. If I can get to the 400 round mark with no failures I'll call it a success.
I'll keep you all posted.
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Very interesting. So how was this achieved? I would guess a slight angle on the FP? Not enough to shorten obviously, but just enough to keep it from hitting the outer rim?
Also what other mods are on the pistol? Just curious. Hope you make it past the 400 hundred mark. And if you do, hope CZ has enough FP for replacements, for those of us that will probably screw up this mod. Like me. [emoji87]
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That's exactly what you do. The edge of the pin that needs to be relieved is opposite of the one that's already angled. Mimic it and then round it up a little. Those guys can get really anal about tip shapes, but I'm not sure if it's really critical for my purpose. The thickness of a .22 case is roughly .010, so you only need to be in that far...maybe a few thou more. I may go a little more on mine. Go slow. It doesn't take much, and radius all the edges very slightly so you don't turn the pin into a 'cutter' and pierce the case. I used a diamond file. The firing pin impression won't likely be as deep as in the photos with a 13lb spring as they are from a CZ rifle, mine isn't, but I'm getting reliable results, so far.
My gun has a bunch of mods. CGW race hammer (including pins) and sear, trigger pin and spring, 13lb hammer spring, a CGW Kadet light firing pin spring (now discontinued), and it's an early Combat so it came with the old style Combat trigger. I also run a red dot with a Springer mount. I shoot bullseye fairly poorly. I'm not as committed to excellence as is Joe L.
...and for the record...
I bought a spare pin when CZ had the Christmas 15% off sale...and I ended up throwing it away. ;D We're all only human, after all. :P
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So, what this looks like is that, instead of wasting the energy to crush the edge of the rim, where the fold is, just relieve the pin slightly so that you crush the primer just inside the fold, then you can reduce the hammer spring weight and still keep the pressure on the flat part roughly the same. Obviously, it works.
I'm thinking it is going to come down to tolerances of the ammo versus the firing pin channel. If it won't work in some guns, it might be because the pin doesn't hit the same spot on the rim each shot. The tighter the firing pin channel and hole, the more likely it is that this will work.
Then there is the ammo itself. I don't have a clue how consistent the case and rim dimensions are, but any variation here may affect how reliable this modification is.
I think I'll try it, too. If I can fiind a spare firing pin. And I need to check a bunch of ejected casings and just see how consistent my current setup is now. If it isn't consistent right now as to where it hits on the rim, I'll leave it alone. If it is, then I will try it. I will need some spent casings to check the hits while modifying the firing pin anyway.
Painter--thanks for taking the time and effort to try to figure out how to do this. I don't need the modification myself, as my 75B is set up for SAO, but this is the one thing that drives most CZ run and gunners mad--having to change hammer springs so they can practice with their Kadet instead of just shooting it like they would in a match. Really ticks them off.
This modification is worth some trial and error to refine.
Joe
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Joe,
I think I might try to modify the extended pin I got from David. That will allow a little more customization of the pin footprint, and also the length. I might be able to get a deeper strike without hitting the chamber. The other thing the benchrest guys like to do is angle the tip of the pin so the edge near the center of the case hits first. Using David's pin would allow that. If you had a lathe you could modify the tip and then machine the pin stop back as necessary on a stock pin.
Yes, 22 ammo does vary, but I'm using 2 flavors and the pin hits inside the edge on both. We're looking for ignition, not the last .005 of accuracy...
at least I'm not.
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I got a pm asking for pictures of the firing pin itself and explained I didn't want to take the gun apart yet and would post a pic of some fired cases, so here is that picture...
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3771/32480883233_7c20dc87e7_b.jpg)
Joe L mentioned ammo variances, and if you notice in the pic it's obvious the S&B ammo, on the right, has a larger rim OD as evidenced by the position of the hit. That was the ammo I was using to gauge my progress when filing the pin. I will have to go back in and take some more off the pin because I had a light strike on round #201 tonight with a CCI round. It was rapid fire but I was able to re-cock the hammer and the round fired.
Stay tuned...I'm not giving up on this idea yet. I will take a picture of the pin this time. I'll just have to start the test over.
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Awesome post. Worth trying.
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Subscribed and living vicariously thru you painter since I don't have time to tinker[emoji2]
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I wonder if you could grind a flat on the opposite side and just turn the Pin 180o ?
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I may try to do this....
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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I wonder if you could grind a flat on the opposite side and just turn the Pin 180o ?
Maybe, but I'm not sure where everything would 'land'. The other thing would be with two flats on the pin...
which way do you put it in?
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Thanks Painter, a interesting post. I am running my Kadet on a stock PO-1 and do not have any issues with ammo.
I use CCI sv, it has been very reliable. I have run a lot of 9mm through the PO-1 prior to placing a Kadet on it.
My thought was to change back and forth with the 9mm and Kadet. This is not happening, am using it only with the
Kadet because it works so well. Very smooth shooting pistol, I am not a bull's eye shooter.
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I wonder if you could grind a flat on the opposite side and just turn the Pin 180o ?
Maybe, but I'm not sure where everything would 'land'. The other thing would be with two flats on the pin...
which way do you put it in?
The Bevel would then be on the outside and the "Point" would then be more toward the center of the Rim, not the edge
If you were to mark the original Flat with (say) a T (for Top), a U (for Up) or just and X
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I wonder if you could grind a flat on the opposite side and just turn the Pin 180o ?
Maybe, but I'm not sure where everything would 'land'. The other thing would be with two flats on the pin...
which way do you put it in?
The Bevel would then be on the outside and the "Point" would then be more toward the center of the Rim, not the edge
If you were to mark the original Flat with (say) a T (for Top), a U (for Up) or just and X
Like I said, it might work, or you still might have to alter the tip not knowing where the strike would occur.
Try it and get back to me. ;D
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Don't run a lite Hammer Spring, so i couldn't even test the results
Has an issue with my "Super" SP101 and its wmr Cylinder the other day
We were seeing about 75% FTFire with the wmr, but 100% with the lr Cylinder
I think it may be the Reduced Power Hammer Spring I had in it
Switched back to the OEM Spring and the Dimples on the Snap Caps look a lot better
We'll get it out to the "Range" and give the wmr Cylinder another go
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Don't shoot competition.
However, my dad and his dad hunted with .22's for many, many years and I've seen a lot of them at Appleseeds. Yes, I have some, too, but they are "old" ones for the most part.
My dad said they never had problems with duds when he was growing up and hunting squirrels/rabbits for the supper table. Maybe one or two over 20 or 30 years, but not at all something to make him shy away from one brand or the other of .22 ammo. Same for his dad.
Dad did believe, that when the ammo makers came out with the big jugs, tubs, buckets of bulk pack .22 that duds became more of an issue. He firmly believed the ammo sold in those was 2nd rate vs. the 50 round boxes. He got a lot of duds from those with his old Savage M29 pump and he could go back to the 50 round boxes and not have the duds.
I remember one Appleseed in particular, where a mother had brought her son and daughter to the 2 day shooting training event. The mother had a family 10/22, the daughter had a borrowed 10/22 and the son had an old Remington single shot bolt action .22. As the daughter and mother would shoot they'd have duds (don't remember the brand of ammo they were shooting) and they'd eject them and drop them on the tarp all three of them shared. After the stage was over (targets scored) the son would pick up their duds and put them in a pile by his rifle. The next stage he'd shoot their duds and the old single shot would pop one after another.
That brought back a memory of my grandpa's little Western Field single shot bolt action .22. Dad would never let us mess with that rifle (I do not have a single memory of shooting it or hunting with it) because he said if you pulled the trigger on an empty chamber it would break the firing pin. They'd had to replace it a couple times over the years when it had been loaned to a family member and brought back broken.
Didn't see this myself but my brother told me his buddy's Ruger Mk1 had to have the chamber edge repaired from firing pin damage while dry firing it. He didn't mention firing pin damage so I can't say much about that. It finally got to the point where it wouldn't fully chamber and had little spots raised up on either side of the spot the firing pin struck.
Now, to my last point. Many of today's modern .22's have a firing pin stop feature that keeps the firing pin from striking the corner/edge of the chamber when dry fired. That means the firing pin isn't capable of traveling as far forward as the older guns would allow. So, get into the usual machining tolerances along with the usual QC and you get some variation (one way or the other) in just how far the firing pin travels forward and how "hard" it hits the rim of the .22 cartridge case.
So, whoever figured out the firing pin mod Painter points out is a pretty smart and practical person. I'll have to try to remember it if I start shooting .22's again someday and have issues with duds. Got a sweet little SIG 522 I've only had to the range once, about 5 years ago, or so.
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So I went back in and took a few more strokes with the diamond file to the pin.
The result. My work is on the left side of the pin.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3846/32519444514_52aba5a738_b.jpg)
The cases in the center of the tray have the earlier mod strike, and the new one....
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2843/33207100172_7f8dbb5c7f_b.jpg)
Sorry about the marginal cell phone pics. :-[
I think the strikes look deeper, but the extractor might have been holding the cases out slightly. Also, the build in pressure that causes the blowback adds to what appears on the case I'll know better when I see some fresh hits on new cases that extract normally.
I did not clean the gun. I got lazy. :P My experience is the light hits occur from mung on the chamber face. I'm at 210 rounds with a light hit on round 201. If I can get to 400+ rounds with no further light hits I'll call the exercise a success.
I'll keep you posted.
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Well...I'm a bit confused about what happened tonight.
The strikes are definitely deeper...a good thing. I fired 30 rounds warming up. All with the S&B with no issue. Then came the first slow fire target, again with the S&B, and no issues. The next target was timed fire. I've been using the CCI for timed and rapid because it's been more reliable. The very first round was a light hit, which went off on the second strike. I ran through the next 9 rounds, and 10 on the next rapid fire target without issue. So I'm now at 270 rounds with 2 light hits.
The next match all of the S&B went off without a hitch. Switched to CCI for timed fire and had a light hit on the second string. 290 rounds and 3 light strikes. Next was rapid again, and at this point things started deteriorating. I had a light hit on the first string, and I had 2 on the second, and had to call an alibi. There just wasn't time to cock the hammer twice in ten seconds and get all 5 rounds off. So that 297 rounds and 6 light hits.
Here's where it gets confusing, to me anyway. For my alibi string i loaded 5 of the S&B, and every single one went off first hit. I'm starting to wonder if I have a bad brick of CCI, or I've reached the end of reliability with the 13lb spring at about 250 rounds. Here's what I'm going to do.
I'm not going to clean it...Joe L will be proud. ;D I'm going to shoot some different ammo besides the CCI next, along with the S&B, and see what happens. If I don't get any light hits for the next 100 rounds I'm going to believe it's an ammo factor. All the CCI I have was produced at least 2 years ago at the height of the shortage. Maybe it's good enough for a heavy spring, but not a light one.
I'll be back.
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Interested. I'd like to get a .22 upper for my 75B that I can rely on.
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Painter--I quit using CCI SV in my Kadet when I had a few misfires. Try some Norma Tac 22. It is my standard ammo for the Kadet. I've used the Norma Match as well but can't really tell any difference except the price. I shot my one and only 100-10x timed fire outdoors with the Tac 22. I'll have more misfires with the CCI than the Norma, in a Ruger 22/45 as well as with the Kadet. I believe I made it through all the matches in 2016 without an alibi with the Kadet.
My first thought is that the CCI misfires are not related to the firing pin modification.
Joe
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Painter--I quit using CCI SV in my Kadet when I had a few misfires. Try some Norma Tac 22. It is my standard ammo for the Kadet. I've used the Norma Match as well but can't really tell any difference except the price. I shot my one and only 100-10x timed fire outdoors with the Tac 22. I'll have more misfires with the CCI than the Norma, in a Ruger 22/45 as well as with the Kadet. I believe I made it through all the matches in 2016 without an alibi with the Kadet.
My first thought is that the CCI misfires are not related to the firing pin modification.
Joe
I don't think the pin mod is the cause, but I do think spring weight is.
The CCI was rock solid with the 17lb spring up to about 400 rounds. The S&B is surplus from the 70's. It always goes bang, but occasionally a weak round won't push the slide back far enough to feed a round, which is why it was relegated to slow fire duty. The hammer always cocks.
I have some Geco rifle, which is the same as Tac-22, I have SK STD+ and SK Magazine which is the same as Wolf target, and some Eley Target as well as more of the S&B. I'll test it some more, and if necessary the CCI can be slow fire fodder, or maybe one of the guys at the club will buy it. Thing is I probably have 2 or 3K rounds of it. The waxy lube buildup is what I was blaming for the light hits. All the other ammo except the Eley uses a greasier lube.
We'll see.
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Lot's of people report CCI being more reliable than Remington, Winchester, Federal, etc. They sure charge enough for them that they should be.
When you pulled the trigger on the dud round for the second time, did you hit the same spot on the rim a second time, or did you pull it out and turn the round so that the firing pin hit a different spot?
If same orientation that might mean light strike.
If different spot on the rim struck then it mine mean lack of priming compound at that first spot.
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Lot's of people report CCI being more reliable than Remington, Winchester, Federal, etc. They sure charge enough for them that they should be.
When you pulled the trigger on the dud round for the second time, did you hit the same spot on the rim a second time, or did you pull it out and turn the round so that the firing pin hit a different spot?
If same orientation that might mean light strike.
If different spot on the rim struck then it mine mean lack of priming compound at that first spot.
My experience these days has been getting what you pay for is optional from a manufacturers perspective, particularly when it comes to rimfire ammo. I've been using the CCI for about 5 years, and with a stock spring, or a 17lb spring, it's been good, but that's not the point of this exercise.
It was just a re-cocking of the hammer, and normally I'd agree with you about the light strike if all the S&B hadn't gone off on the first hit. That ammo is over 40 years old. Why did I not have a single light hit even after the CCI started malfunctioning? Not being an expert on the manufacture of rimfire ammo, but having watched a video of the method used at CCI, and marveling how 'manual' that process is, I'm wondering if it's possible to have some priming compound in the rim, but not thick enough to go off with a single hit from a 13lb spring?
I'm going to continue my testing. It may be folly, but it keeps me off the street. ;D
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And if you figure it out and fix it, then it wasn't folly.
If you learn from it, it's not folly (well, I guess that depends on whether or not it gets you into trouble." O0
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And if you figure it out and fix it, then it wasn't folly.
If you learn from it, it's not folly (well, I guess that depends on whether or not it gets you into trouble." O0
I never learned anything the easy way. ;)
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So I put 95 more rounds down range tonight. None of it was CCI, and I had no light strikes, and still haven't cleaned the gun. I shot S&B surplus from the 70's, Tac-22...had a partial box, and Geco rifle which is the same stuff as Tac-22.
That's a total of 392 rounds. I'll continue to shoot it for the next month without cleaning, and will report what happens. After the middle of April, league is over, and we move outside and shoot centerfire for fun.
I'm calling this experiment a success, at least with a 13lb spring. It isn't necessary if you use a 17lb, or heavier, spring. Even if it's a fluke, and didn't really accomplish much, it didn't hurt anything. If anyone has any questions about the mod let me know and I'll try to clarify.
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Painter--thanks for your efforts. I'll see if I can duplicate your results with the same modification. I'm at a neurosurgeon's office right now seeing about my back problems. Not sure when I'll get back to the Kadet. May be mid April. Unless I get the P-10C, then all bets are off for a month!
Joe
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In the old precision shooting mag, a man named Bill Clafee did a lot of experimental work with rimfire firing pins. Even one that hit all the way around the rim. I'll search and see what I come across.
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In the old precision shooting mag, a man named Bill Clafee did a lot of experimental work with rimfire firing pins. Even one that hit all the way around the rim. I'll search and see what I come across.
I've read Chafee's book, it is about 2" thick, all on rimfire rifles. He's a hoot. Would and did try almost everything related to rimfires. Very interesting read, if you are in to almost too much information!
Joe
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Calfee is legendary. I don't have enough time, equipment, or motivation left to investigate every experiment he tried. ;D
I just did this so I don't have to switch springs. I can live with cleaning every 400, or so, rounds.
The CCI I have left can easily be sold, or relegated to slow fire duty. I'm leaning towards selling because the issue, as I see it, is the waxy lube build up on the feed ramp and chamber face, specifically when a chunk comes loose when a round is fed or the OBI is inserted, and gets in the way of allowing the case to sit tight to the chamber face.
The Tac-22 and Geco ammo has a more oily lube, as does SK, and I don't think those will present a problem.
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A lot of great work here Paint
Never cared much for .22 Rounds with waxed Bullets
They cause a lot of loading /extraction issues, even in Revolvers and Bolt Guns
Back in the day, when there wasn't much else available, I'd actually take the time to wipe the wax off of each and every Round before a Match / Range Session
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Thanks Den.
During the ammo shortage CCI SV became ridiculously over lubed. So much so that the wax would deform on the bullet tips where they rubbed on the paper boxes. Some would even have chunks break off. The thing about the CCI was it was typically available, and remained reliable with stock springs.
I don't subscribe to removing all the wax lube though. I'd be afraid of leading issues.
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great thread, and ideas.. I am a guy w/ the 13lb spring and altered retaining plate in a PO6 gun frame that ran flawlessly until dropped down to a 13lb and 11lb main spring.. started tinkering.. haven't shot the kadet on that frame yet again.. as it needs a new sear cage springy... thingy.. CGW working to fix w/ me.. ahhhh, but NOW, I feel rejuvenated to start tinkering again based on this information!
thank you all,
K in MI
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great thread, and ideas.. I am a guy w/ the 13lb spring and altered retaining plate in a PO6 gun frame that ran flawlessly until dropped down to a 13lb and 11lb main spring.. started tinkering.. haven't shot the kadet on that frame yet again.. as it needs a new sear cage springy... thingy.. CGW working to fix w/ me.. ahhhh, but NOW, I feel rejuvenated to start tinkering again based on this information!
thank you all,
K in MI
I remember your work well K. I wish I had a lathe and a mill to do some more firing pin experiments.
Based on the strike depth I don't think a much weaker spring would work. It might if you could increase the footprint area without adding to the resistance of extra brass being crushed.
I also believe there are other tolerances in the Kadet that pile up and contribute to the requirement for a strong spring.
It's fun stuff.
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Painter,
you have me ' ready' again to dive into the Kadet / light spring areana again. thanks. didn't think anyone cared anymore. So, wondering, have you ever 'measured' the depth difference's in firing pin hits?
thanks, would be a boon if you did and can publish. I kept trying to keep penetration to same depth.. NEVER really thought about 'where' the strike should be? could be? better?
please advise,
thanks
K in MI
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FWIIW, I got inspired by this thread to try some stuff, here are the first results. Setup:
- CZ Kadet II Adapter, brand new (got it last Mon :) ) w/ modified firing pin, see pictures below. This is the only modification to the pin I have done so far.
- CZ 75B frame (2nd run Cold War Commemorative) w/ CGW 15# hammer spring and CGW short reset lifter. Everything else is original (well, G10 grips... ;) ) (Edit: oops, forgot the CGW trigger pin and trigger return spring...)
I ran various ammo through it (% fired on 1st strike):
- 100x CCI Mini-Mag 40gr RN (90%)
- 10x CCI Velocitor 40gr HP (90%)
- 10x CCI Stinger 32gr HP (100%)
- 50x Aguila HV 40gr RN (80%)
- 50x Aguila SV 40gr RN (80%)
- 60x Fed Target HV 40gr RN (90%)
- 20x Fed American Eagle HV 40gr (100%)
- 20x Remington 22 Thunderbolt 40gr RN (85%)
- 20x Winchester M22 40gr RN (85%)
All misfires would go off on second strike via DA. I had two rounds that did not fire after a 3rd strike (1 Stinger and 1 Fed Target) but went of after reloading turned 180 deg (top right casing in the picture w/ the 3x3 F casings is one.)
Overall I would guess the reliability is about 85%. I wasn't too bothered by this since I only use the gun for informal shooting -- it actually helps me practicing DA pull and flinch avoidance :)
Possible improvements:
- I ground the corner of at a 45deg angle. A steeper angle would reduce friction on the rim side of the case further (you can see the ledge impression on some impacts)
- if this were be a remanufactured pin, I would have the impact surface angled, ie. leave the outer edge where it is and extend the inner edge by 1/100" into the chamber, resulting in a slightly sloped impact area. This should be safe for dry fire, but allow for better energy transfer into the rim.
- relieve the surface where the pin rests on the stop plate by 1/100" to 2/100" to give the hammer slightly more time to transfer energy.
I would like to try the last point, but I don't have the tools to do this. I do know a machine shop in this area, I'll try to talk them into it :)
(https://s10.postimg.org/qst1thrhh/MG_1177-3.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/qst1thrhh/) (https://s10.postimg.org/9tk3e8g9x/MG_1179-3.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/9tk3e8g9x/) (https://s10.postimg.org/p3jylfbs5/MG_1180-3.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/p3jylfbs5/)
(https://s10.postimg.org/grssxx3s5/MG_1186-3.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/grssxx3s5/) (https://s10.postimg.org/n6rtulahx/MG_1187-3.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/n6rtulahx/) (https://s10.postimg.org/42yie8xnp/MG_1189-3.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/42yie8xnp/)
(https://s10.postimg.org/5ja0we0kl/MG_1190-3.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/5ja0we0kl/) (https://s10.postimg.org/pf60bxhlx/MG_1191-3.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/pf60bxhlx/)
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Painter,
you have me ' ready' again to dive into the Kadet / light spring areana again. thanks. didn't think anyone cared anymore. So, wondering, have you ever 'measured' the depth difference's in firing pin hits?
thanks, would be a boon if you did and can publish. I kept trying to keep penetration to same depth.. NEVER really thought about 'where' the strike should be? could be? better?
please advise,
thanks
K in MI
Sorry, I missed this post.
I probably have some cases around from a stock firing pin and spring. I'll have to look, but to answer your question...no I never measured depth. I don't have a stock pin anymore so I can't reproduce any data on stock pin and strike depths with various springs.
I did shoot again tonight. I put 105 rounds downrange and had 1 light hit between rounds 50 and 55. It was a Geco round, and did go off on the second strike. That would be around round # 440. That would have surpassed my goal of 400 round, 100% reliability. I had no further light hits for the next 35 rounds.
I'm calling this a success. I'm going to clean the kit, and start counting over without any waxy buildup on the feed ramp to verify that I can go 400 continuous rounds with 100% reliability.
K has me thinking about strike depth influence, so I may at some point get a new pin and do some further testing to see if I can determine if it's depth, footprint, or a combination of the two that determine reliability. I could put a stronger spring in and get some depths with the modified pin, but I'm not sure what that would prove.
Stay tuned.
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Inspired by ideas on this thread i have modified two firing pins on my Kadet slides. Tested them last week on two different frames. SP-01 with 13lb main spring and SAO with 15,16,18lb springs. The results last week were: 13lb spring 70-80%, 15lb spring 80%, 16lb 90% and 18lb 100%.
Yesterday i have replaced both firing pin springs with softer ones stolen from the ballpens. Tested today again with 100% reliability on both frames including 13lb spring. Only tested with two ammo brands CCI SV and SK Standard plus. Not a single misfire today. Great! Now my SAO gets a lighter main spring as well. Before i was forced to use 18lb to use it with Kadet kits.
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My next test will not include CCI.
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Nice trick - using a spring from a ball point pin. I baked my spring in the oven to temper it down and make it weaker.
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As I posted earlier, I'm using the spring that came with the CGW extended pin.
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Quick update:
Possible improvements:
[..]
- relieve the surface where the pin rests on the stop plate by 1/100" to 2/100" to give the hammer slightly more time to transfer energy.
I would like to try the last point, but I don't have the tools to do this. I do know a machine shop in this area, I'll try to talk them into it :)
I had that done last week (10/1000"). Tried the mod yesterday, ran about 200 Fed. AutoMatch at 95% reliability w/ the 15# main spring.
The next step will be a lighter FP spring, I have one coming and will report back w/ the results.
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I took the KADET, mounted on my B-SA Lower (with the stock Hammer Spring) yesterday
Ran 50 Rounds of Federal Bulk with 100% reliability 8)
Then I ran 50 Rounds of Troy Landry, CCI .22lr Mini Mags
They were about 15 - 20% reliable (always fired on the DA second try) >:(
Have yet to have an issue, with the Federals, so I can't figure-out way the issue with the CCIs ???
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I took the KADET, mounted on my B-SA Lower (with the stock Hammer Spring) yesterday
Ran 50 Rounds of Federal Bulk with 100% reliability 8)
Then I ran 50 Rounds of Troy Landry, CCI .22lr Mini Mags
They were about 15 - 20% reliable (always fired on the DA second try) >:(
Have yet to have an issue, with the Federals, so I can't figure-out way the issue with the CCIs ???
Mini Mags have hard wax (paraffin?) coating. Do they chamber all the way? Clean chamber? Lite recoil spring? Just thinking out-loud.
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Mini Mags have hard wax (paraffin?) coating. Do they chamber all the way? Clean chamber? Lite recoil spring? Just thinking out-loud.
Hey Boris:
These MiniMags are Copper Platted, not waxy Exposed Lead
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/234289/cci-mini-mag-high-velocity-ammunition-22-long-rifle-troy-landry-special-edition-36-grain-plated-lead-hollow-point-box-of-300
They seem to chamber cleanly
All Springs are stock
As stated, I have yet to have a single issue with the cheap Federals or other Copper Plated / Washed Rounds
I will not run Waxed / Lead Rounds through my Autoloaders
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Mini-Mags are also waxed Den...honest.
All CCI ammo is waxed. Some of it is ridiculously over-waxed.
Eley ammo is waxed.
Most of the rest use a greasy/oily type lube.
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The CCI Mini Mag's that I have seen and shot have had paraffin? coating. Sometimes you can take a whole chunk of it off with your finger nail. Like a cap. Its not like oily/waxy coating that goes on lead bullets and smear. I haven't shot Troy Landry edition, but would imaging the same ammo packaged differently.
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I've seen the same on CCI-SV, which is why I started this whole firing pin experiment.
After 400 rounds of it you can get chunks of wax falling off the ramp.
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Mini-Mags are also waxed Den...honest.
All CCI ammo is waxed. Some of it is ridiculously over-waxed.
Eley ammo is waxed.
Most of the rest use a greasy/oily type lube.
The CCI Mini Mag's that I have seen and shot have had paraffin? coating. Sometimes you can take a whole chunk of it off with your finger nail. Like a cap. Its not like oily/waxy coating that goes on lead bullets and smear. I haven't shot Troy Landry edition, but would imaging the same ammo packaged differently.
I've seen the same on CCI-SV, which is why I started this whole firing pin experiment.
After 400 rounds of it you can get chunks of wax falling off the ramp.
Copy that
Didn't really notice any Wax, but there may have been
Definitely nothing like an Exposed Lead Bullet CCI sells
To be honest, this is the first batch of CCIs I have been able to afford in a very long time
I've been lucky in that I horded a lot of the Federal 550 packs for years back and been working my way through them before buy and trying these CCI Troy dude's
So-far .... not real impressed :-\
They ran well through my Witness .22 Conversion, the Colt DGC/ACE
No noticable fails and the MkII Target loved them
I know the KADET can be AMMO finicky, but it eats Fed Bulk right up
0% failures for years
I just may have to try buying another FP and play with it like you did Paint 8)
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When Federal 550 pack were cheap and easy available at Walmart and sport stores, I have shot many thousand of them through Kadet. Not really accurate, but ok for 50' and shorter range. Now I mostly feed my .22s with basic lower end target grade standard velocity lead ammo. Accuracy is like day and night. No comparing. I would not call Kadet ammo finicky/picky. Both mine work really well with any ammo, but as any 22 gun it shows better accuracy with some ammo that it likes better.
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I might have mentioned it already, but I may take the extended fp that I got from CGW and use it to increase the footprint. The footprint of the Kadet pin is pretty small after filing the part that hits the rim.
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So, it's been a few months, and I know I'm not the only Kadet owner interested in this experiment ... any update, Painter?
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I cleaned the kit, and put about 200 rounds of Geco Rifle through it with no issues. I'm calling what I've done so far a relative success.
It's outside shooting time here, and we've switched over to centerfire pistols for bullseye, and we shoot outside. Plus I've been bitten by the shotgun bug, and have been doing a lot of that.
I have a pin to experiment with that 75Plus sent me. I'll get to that before too long
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I'm very interested in Joe's new Firing Pin (testing) design
If I had plans to use a lighter Hammer Spring, I'd try his Pin myself
Let me know how it works out
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So indoor league has started up again, and I have started to get light strikes with Geco Rifle at, what I consider, an unacceptable interval...about 200 rounds. It is ammo from a different order, so it's likely also a different lot#.
I've cleaned the chamber face, and ramp, and switched to a 15 lb main spring. We'll see.
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Just so we are on the same page, up till this point, you had a CGW FP spring, and a 13#MS. Is the FP a modified stock? Or did you mod the CGW extended pin ( to get a larger footprint).
I am following with great interest, and don't want to get lost thru the changes.
Thank you
Rich
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That is correct. The only change is to a 15lb main spring.
At some point I'll try to re-work the CGW pin, or the one 75 Plus sent me.
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Question for anyone using a ball point pen spring for a reduced power firing pin spring in your Kadet - what is the reliability overtime? Are you seeing them fail overtime or do they continue to perform over the long run? Today I gave it a go and ran ~100 rounds flawlessly. I did not modify the firing pin footprint so this was the only change for my Kadet. Qualitatively i feel it improved my light strikes with Winchester M22 ammo. Before changing the spring i would see frequent light strikes with this ammo - Of course 100 rounds is a limited trial i was still encouraged.
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Question for anyone using a ball point pen spring for a reduced power firing pin spring in your Kadet - what is the reliability overtime? Are you seeing them fail overtime or do they continue to perform over the long run?
I only used the ball point spring as a substitute for the lost factory firing pin spring. As soon as the correct replacement factory spring arrived, I put it in the gun. I doubt that the ball point spring will survive more than a few hundred rounds, but I'll never know.
Joe
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Thanks Joe - i had read you did this many years ago in a pinch for a spring. I am interested in opinions/feedback as it sounds like Boris and others have tried this replacement and might have ran it for awhile. Worst case i just keep shooting it till it fails and then pop the original back in.
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Interesting thread.
I just got my Kadet and will be putting it through it's paces this weekend.
I'm not a big believer in reduced power springs, but I will pay attention to the primer strikes.
This may be the secret to my 22.mag revolver.
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I have ballpoint pen springs on two of my Kadets and installed it for a friend/shooting partner as well along with modified chisel point on the FP. So far at least a few bricks of ammo through each of them with no problems. Probably more like a case through ones that shot the most. If it fails it s a not the end of the world. Replacement is cheap and changing is easy. I also have the original springs and extra new firing pins. Work reliably with 13lb main spring, but require cleaning (swab with a Q-tip) of the breech and bolt face (slide) more often. Every 500-800 rnds depending on the ammo. Doesn't like Aguila Super Extra SV(1-2% lite strikes) and CCL SV. Works great with SK Stnd+ and Norma TAC.
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Is there a picture that shows before and after how the firing pin should look? thanks