The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: IDescribe on June 10, 2017, 05:29:31 PM
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Anyone try out this new powder yet? Alliant has published a fair amount of data for it:
(https://68.media.tumblr.com/ce2afce57cbff5035b76a69d609eec1c/tumblr_orcor9gyUt1st1xojo1_500.png)
Looks like a pretty clear 9mm minor powder to me. Anyone curious enough yet? ;)
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We're waiting for you to post up your results :).
I haven't seen this powder yet.
Cheers,
Toby
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Just read this thread....
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/new-alliant-sport-pistol.816514/
If I had the equipment to chronograph then I would! I have BE-86 and it's an awesome powder. Trying to burn through my 700X and if I could find some of this Sport Pistol to try, it could be a replacement for 700X...
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I haven't seen it for sale in any of the places I normally buy powder. From what I've read of it over the past several months, it really doesn't fit into my powder needs. For warm loads, I use Power Pistol, BE-86 or several other different powders. I don't shoot games where you need "minor or major" loads, so that aspect doesn't interest me. I load for accuracy most of the time, and if a load or powder won't shoot more accurately than what I've been loading in the past, then I don't buy it.
I normally buy my powders in 8 pound kegs, and usually multiples of those to get the same powder lot. If I do happen to run across a 1 pound bottle of Sport Pistol, I'll probably buy it, just to see if it is more accurate than some of my mainstay powders.
Hope this helps.
Fred
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So..... I definitely noticed a difference in my group sizes when I started testing BE-86 compared to 700X. 700X has worked but I had a lot from the great shortage and I am sick of trying to just burn through it. That's my justification to myself for ordering some Sport Pistol. I don't have a chrono, so my testing won't be special. But I'll let ya'll know how it works out.
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Get more BE-86! Or Bullseye! Or American Select! ;)
Idescribe is likely trolling me, but I have actually really wanted American Select for its burn rate, but they don't have much pistol load data and I couldn't find it for a long time. Then I read this from the guy at Alliant:
I doubt you will find Sport Pistol on any burn rate charts. As a point of reference, I had described this product as an accurate metering, small diameter version of American Select(R), which has been a favorite of mine in light centerfire pistol target type applications for years. (It doesn't meter all that well though.) This powder is absolutely not American Select though, so make no mistake about that. The chemistry and geometry are different, but I just used that as an example that made sense to me.
The third slide of the attached file shows how the P/V characteristics of Sport Pistol are essentially the same as N320, and close to Win231 and Titegroup in these applications. That is by design, as those three powders dominate the handloading by USPSA and IDPA shooters (according to our intel). We have received great feedback from our beta testers, so I think we hit our target.
(Disclaimer: the P/V chart does not show charge weights shot for the data, so please do not assume that the powders are the same because their P/V characteristics are similar. Titegroup, for example is a high nitroglycerine powder, so it's charges are materially less due to the high energy. Use only the manufacturer's data please.)
Thanks for the interest in our new product.
Paul
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/new-alliant-sport-pistol.816514/page-4
So from what I can make out with my lesser experience in this arena of powders and reloading:
1- It has less nitro so uses a little more powder but should be a little cleaner (not a single base, but closer to it).
2- Due to the "small diameter" it meters well.
3- Burn rate is targeted at N320, Win231/HP-38, and Titegroup.
With those points and what else I have read in researching this powder seems like the replacement I want for 700X. Additionally, I have been really pleased with BE-86. Metering is great and I saw a marked difference in my groups when I switched to it from 700X, so I think Alliant is doing good stuff. I am not as die hard in reloading like you vets. I just want good powders in the burn rates I want and then I want to just reload and shoot a lot.
All that was to justify my behavior because I know I'll take some slack on this..... Since Sport Pistol checks the boxes I'm looking for I ordered an 8 lb jug. For me to dislike it there will need to be something very very wrong with it, such that I'll be contacting the manufacturer. Baring that happening, I am set to reload and shoot for quite some time without having to test, change, or worry about running out.
You guys can now mock me, I know its coming.
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Get more BE-86! Or Bullseye! Or American Select! ;)
Idescribe is likely trolling me...
WHAT?!?!?! I wasn't trolling you, but if I'm going to get the punishment for it anyway, I might as well have the fun of it, as well. You have made a powerful enemy here today. :P
Anyhoo... ;) I think American Select is fantastic powder for 9mm minor, and just very few people know about it. It was superbly accurate for me with coated lead -- BBI 147 and BBI 125 specifically -- when I was testing with it back in late 2013 - early 2014. In Sierra's load manual, American Select is powder for the "accuracy load" for the three 124gr 9mm Luger bullets in their manual. And it's of a burn rate appropriate to 9mm minor. If you want to try it, go for it. ;)
As to BE-86, it's high on my "to buy" list. It's the same basic formulation as Bullseye and Power Pistol, and those are among the most accurate powders in their burn rate class. I suspect the same can be said for BE-86. Maybe a year ago, I was involved in a thread getting someone started with BE-86 -- probably you? -- and I was all about it. I see BE-86 as Alliant's WSF. I have no doubt it's great powder.
Since Sport Pistol checks the boxes I'm looking for I ordered an 8 lb jug.
First, you show us the way with BE-86, and now Sport Pistol?
If you're going to trailblaze like this for the forum, we may need to give you a patch or something. ;) I will be looking forward to that thread. In fact, go ahead and start that thread, tell us what bullets you're thinking about, and we can start planning.
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Since Sport Pistol checks the boxes I'm looking for I ordered an 8 lb jug.
First, you show us the way with BE-86, and now Sport Pistol?
If you're going to trailblaze like this for the forum, we may need to give you a patch or something. ;) I will be looking forward to that thread. In fact, go ahead and start that thread, tell us what bullets you're thinking about, and we can start planning.
Haha just messing with ya. But you did help with my BE-86 and you responded when I resurrected your American Select testing thread so I greatly appreciate you always pitching in.
I think I used all my Berry's 124 gr 9mm and now I just have their 115 gr 9mm. Oh and those coated bullets you guys helped me with. I'll load up with the berry's and the coated bullets over the next week or so and get that testing going. Have a work trip to Portland OR early next week, but once I'm back the party starts.
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I'm sorry you have to go to Portland on business. We've been trying to sell that city to Washington state for years, but they don't want it, either. The rest of Oregon doesn't claim Portland, since it's the land of tree-huggers, anti-gunners and just general whackos..........
Fred
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I've shot at ARPC many times, as well as Roseburg Rod & Gun Club, the Josephine County Sportsman's Park in Merlin and COSSA. My home range is The Siuslaw Rod & Gun Club, which I'm building to be a better place than when I joined 22 years ago. So far, I'm on track.........
I was at the Ashland Gun Club yesterday, and they're still in a court battle with their rich doctor neighbor who had sworn to get them closed down, after he built his mansion next to the club. (Don't buy Flonase, since this jerk invented it, and he's using the proceeds to try to shut down a range that's been there for many decades)
Fred
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It came this morning, but I just got back from my work trip to Portland. So busy I didn't have to do anything fun. I should have some loads worked up by this weekend for testing.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170621/4c68897886d62e5d7afa4501f091fb9d.jpg)
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I should have some loads worked up by this weekend for testing.
Hey, what's the hold up there ?? !! O0
Sorry had to clean a bunch of brass. Loading up my ladder today. More excuses, I had to install CGW bushings and my new red dot on these two ladies.... Excuses aside, this will be coming asap
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170624/1d4e63a51696314746297fd8051c7bba.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170624/29f92efb195ca76a831a24e803bb42c6.jpg)
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Loaded up the ladder. I'll be shooting my Berry's 115 gr CPRN bullets. Following Alliant's standard pressure load data. 1.135 OAL and 4.5 gr to 4.9 gr of powder. Max is 5 gr but I am thinking of running a ladder of their +P and that goes from 4.8 gr to 5.4 gr.
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So it was a bad day for me at the range. Sighted in a new red dot on my SP-01 Compact. Then got to the Sport Pistol. My full size SP-01 has a new CGW bushing and I figured out that it changed the POI up from where it had been. All that is to say I was incapable of testing group size today.
But... My cases are noticeable cleaner in the interior at every step of the ladder than with 700X. Had burn marks on my cases from 4.5 gr to 4.7 gr. I noticed that it was a lot less smokey than 700X and even BE 86. I didn't notice any sparks or major muzzle flash. I do see muzzle flash with BE-86, even though it supposedly has stuff to suppress that (don't get me wrong, it isn't a lot and I think it looks awesome!).
The recoil impulse is more than 700X at the bottom of its charge window (so soft that it is stupid). The recoil is softer than BE-86, so it seems to be fitting in the burn rate that they aimed for (around HP-38). Come to think of it, I think it was burning cleaner than HP-38, but it's been a while since I've shot my HP-38.
Overall I really like this powder. Sorry I sucked too bad today and could provide groups. Here's a few picks. 15 yards. You can see I kept changing my grip or my sight picture. I should have just shot free hand. It's embarrassing, but here's the pics I took.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170625/2cba9d15b4eba9d72b15853b8e1fc09c.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170625/fb48f613c093ba04eebc3f3967b12629.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170625/ea9b385328a735a4197bcc5ca49a5994.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170625/6e9878653b31646d47d81c66dd8bda43.jpg)
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Powder Valley has 8 pound jugs for $129.00. I just pulled the trigger on a jug. Can't wait to give it a try, been hearing a lot of good things about it.
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You would need to tell us what application you wanted to use it for. You would not want to use Bullseye and Power Pistol for the same application, so what are you loading for? 50 yards bullseye competitions? "Action shooting" competitions in 9mm minor? Plinking? Defense loads?
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Ok, I would like to ask for some advice. I have used Accurate's AA7 7 for 9mm and .40 S&W. Didn't like it due to the fact that it would leak out of my powder measure and was much grittier and had a stiff pull on the measure handle. Switched to Power Pistol and have had really good results so I have stuck with it. Can anyone tell me the negatives of using power pistol? I think it meters very well, but I am thinking of trying something else. It seems there is a lot of folks high on BE-86, Tightgroup, and Bullseye. Any strong opinions on trying something new or should I just be happy with being satisfied where I am.
Depends on what you're looking to get out of your powder. I got BE-86 for a slower pistol powder. It sounded like a slightly improved and slightly faster version of Power Pistol, but I could be wrong.
This new powder, Sport Pistol, is a faster burn rate than BE-86 and Power Pistol. It a medium to fast burn rate, like Hp-38. Maybe a just a fast pistol powder. It can produce velocities that make it work for minor power factor, it's clean, meters well, and they put out a ton of load data. So if you want a faster powder I'd recommend it.
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I am using it to practice with. Target shooting. May get into some competitions as I improve my skills. But, for now poking holes in paper at various distances. There is a lot of talk about faster/slower burning powders. What are the advantages of each? According to Chuck Hawk, burn rate is meaningless. http://www.chuckhawks.com/powder_burn_rate.htm. Thanks for your input.
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That appears to be randy Wakeman writing that article for the Chuck Hawks page.
I would need to write twice as much as Wakeman to explain the several ways he's wrong, and then 5 times as much to explain burn rate as thoroughly as I can, which still isn't all that thorough, and I really want to avoid that. Let me say two things about Wakeman's article:
- His premise is that burn rate charts are worthless. His conclusion restates that burn rate charts are worthless. Not one iota of his argument talks about burn rate charts or their organization. His argument is about the limitations of relative quickness, which makes his article completely off topic in relation to his premise.
- AND even for what his article does do in terms of support, it does it poorly. The fact that ballisticians use relative quickness rather than burn rate is irrelevant. It is incredibly common for industry experts to use terms that are different than the terms used for public consumption. Pointing out that the ballisticians don't use the term burn rate so that he can suggest that burn rate is meaningless is either dishonest or stupid.
Basically, Wakeman clearly doesn't think burn rate charts are of much use, and he has good cause for that, but the argument he makes is a whole lot of smoke.
The truth is that a universal burn rate chart is inherently flawed. You can take a particular bullet in a particular caliber of a particular diameter made of a particular material and of a particular weight and load it to a particular OAL, then load it with all the powders appropriate for that caliber, run tests at an ambient temp of 80F, and rank those powders in order by burn rate. The tests should be as repeatable as the gear used to run the tests are precise.
The problem is that different powders respond differently to different variables, so different variable sets will produce different burn rate orders. It's not going to be dramatic. Power Pistol is going to be slower than Bullseye with all variable sets. But two powders that are closer together, like 3N37 and N340, those might flip flop going from one bullet weight to another, or one caliber to another.
That all means that when you are looking at a universal burn rate chart, that chart might not be 100% true for any variable set, much less all variable sets. Someone somewhere placed those powders on order based on typical orders or averages or whatever. I don't think anyone can say for sure, but one thing we can say for sure is that no two powder manufacturers use the same method. It's clearly as much art as it is science.
But that doesn't mean that burn rate charts are meaningless. Given a caliber, a bullet weight, and desired velocity range, the powders best for that application are going to group together by burn rate.
HP-38 and the powders right around it on a burn rate chart are more useful for driving 124gr bullets to velocities between 1050 and 1080 feet/sec for 9mm "minor power factor" USPSA and IDPA competitions than AA7 is. And AA7 and the powders right around it on a burn rate chart are better for driving a 115gr bullet to 1200-1250 feet/sec for 50 yard bullseye competition. And Varget and the powders right around it on the burn rate chart are worthless for both applications.
That's what burn rate and burn rate charts are good for. I know Powder X is great for Application A, so if I want to know what other powders might be good for application A, I can look on a burn rate chart for the powders right around Powder X. That's pretty much it.
So what would I recommend for you?
If you wanted to shoot 9mm Luger at 50 yards at a 1-inch circular target, where time and thus recoil are not significant concerns, I would recommend a 115gr bullet at 1200+ feet/sec and Power Pistol. And if not Power Pistol, something of a similarly slow burn rate.
If you wanted to shoot 9mm Luger competitively at ranges from 7 - 35 yards, at 6x12-inch targets, where how much time it takes you to shoot is calculated into your score, so recoil is a factor to consider, I would recommend a 124/125gr bullet from 1050-1080 ft/s with HP-38 or any other powder close to that on a burn rate chart -- things like Bullseye, N320, Titegroup, American Select, Ramshot Zip, Red Dot, Prima V, WST, etc., etc..
AND if you wanted to develop a general target load you could shoot at a wide variety of distances and carry over into action shooting, go with the action shooting load option #2 above out of the gate, and focus on accuracy in load development.
Also, because burn rate charts are useful in terms of powders grouped together, burn rate charts that group powders in tiers are more useful than charts that rank them 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8.... The ones that rank in numerical order can be misleading. If you're going to look at one for anything, it's better to look at one like this: http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/burn_rates.pdf (http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/burn_rates.pdf)
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For action pistol games, picking a nice middle of the road burn rate powder then developing for accuracy is probably the way to go. Most people don't even bother developing for accuracy since we're shooting at such large targets.
You should be aiming for 132ish powerfactor for being safe at chrono. There's not a wild difference in feel of 132 down to 128, but if you undercharge by .2 gr you may be on the ragged edge.
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That appears to be randy Wakeman writing that article for the Chuck Hawks page.
I would need to write twice as much as Wakeman to explain the several ways he's wrong, and then 5 times as much to explain burn rate thoroughly, and I really want to avoid that. Let me say two things about Wakeman's article:
<snip>
He's the world's foremost expert...just ask him. ;)
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That appears to be randy Wakeman writing that article for the Chuck Hawks page.
I would need to write twice as much as Wakeman to explain the several ways he's wrong, and then 5 times as much to explain burn rate thoroughly, and I really want to avoid that. Let me say two things about Wakeman's article:
<snip>
He's the world's foremost expert...just ask him. ;)
Exactly ;)
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BTW here's some pictures of my bores after shooting. Both guns had some 700X loads through them previously, so they had some messiness on the ramps and surrounding parts already. But these bores look cleaner than any other powder I've used. My list isn't crazy, but I've run 700X, HP-38, Longshot, BE-86, and now Sport Pistol. If you can tell, the buildup from Sport Pistol is more grey in color. Not sure it's coming through... Anyways, I had forgotten to look at my bores and I'm very pleased!
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170630/4c7807e7643d2a8265583ffcb60574a3.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170630/412d0cf360c0753441b62ac11f7d99a5.jpg)
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I loaded some rounds tonight with Sport Pistol just to see if the burn rate in 9mm was where I thought it would be from looking at the load data. There is none for 135 grain bullets which is what I like to shoot. So splitting the difference between the top load for 124 grain bullets and the same for 147 grain bullets it looks like a decent load for a 135 grain coated bullet should be around 3.7 to 3.8 grains of powder. I loaded 3.8 grains @ an OAL of 1.120. I did not get to chrono anything but I was paying attention to the primers, case head expansion and the general look of the fired brass. Case head expansion was minimal and I did not get any burned cases so at this level the brass is fully sealing the chamber, primers look normal and the case ejection was about the same as the Clean Shot and Prima V I have been shooting. Recoil was about the same but the one thing I noticed that may make this stuff worth the purchase was the level of smoke it was producing in the late humid afternoon as compared to the other 2 powders mentioned. If it chronos like I think it will and has any sort of accuracy it just might be the winner. Compared to the Clean Shot and Prima V there is about an 80% reduction in smoke, it's just as clean shooting and maybe a little more so. I will try to get in some chrono and accuracy tests tomorrow if it doesn't rain me out but just the big reduction in smoke and its cleanliness has my interests tweaked. It measures superbly and fills the case nicely. If it is accurate it may just be what I am searching for to replace the very expensive and sometimes hard to find N320.
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I loaded some rounds tonight with Sport Pistol just to see if the burn rate in 9mm was where I thought it would be from looking at the load data.
I look forward to your tests!
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Had some time this afternoon and the weather cooperated nicely. I fired 40 rounds today, same 135 grain ACME coated with 3.8 grains of Sport Pistol loaded to 1.120. two 10 round strings over the chrono showed a high of 989 and a low of 969 on the first string and high 988 and a low of 976 on the second. The average for both strings was 984. I shot a few off hand groups at 20 yards after warming up at the chrono and all were under 2". Smoke was the same today, I did not notice it at all. I had a buddy watching and he said he could see some puffs of smoke but nothing like the CS or PV we have been shooting at this time of day, nothing you have to look around or under to see the target.This powder has a low report for a load approaching 133 power factor but has a different sound than any I have used before. I will try backing it off two tenths attempting a power factor of 130 to see if it starts to produce any smoke in the late afternoon. It is very clean and soft shooting leaving only a gray coloring like N320 with a low but slightly different report. All good so far!
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Thanks for further testing SP01Shadow. I lack the chronograph, but the cleanliness, low smoke, Grey residue and your other results seem similar to my experience.
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I was muffed and plugged at an indoor range... So I didn't. I've got another 100 loaded up and I'll shoot them outdoors on Monday. I'll see if I can snag some video and I'll listen for the report (and maybe I'll shoot decent again).
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So.... I thought I'd broken my draw. In dry fire I thought I fixed it, but whatever I did threw off my grip and trigger pull. Last range session was miserable and this one had a lot of dry fire mixed into live fire. The figure out what I changed and I'm coming back around with my draw and grip and trigger pull.
That all culminated into shooting from a wrist rest at 25 yards with my SP-01 Compact to see if I could get some accuracy out of Sport Pistol. And.... BOOM! This is a first for me but I got a 4 shot group at 1 3/4"!!!
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170703/40600ad01d2943aed8b51cce55d35657.jpg)
Side note, I had to hit the indoor range. Couldn't sneak away to drive out to the boonies for an outdoor session. It's hard to tell the difference in sound indoors for me. But it absolutely produces much less smoke than any other powder I've shot! Clean, accurate, not smokey, and thanks to SP01Shadow we have confirmed velocities. This is good stuff!
Oh and I didn't notice my pistols getting any hotter than normal.... I'll run mag dumps next time and specifically feel for that.
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i spent most of the afternoon today banging away with my new P-07 and my P-09. i backed the load off to 3.6 grains of powder and did indeed reach 130 PF. It is not quite as clean but the smoke was still at a minimum and the accuracy did not suffer still making 1 3/4" groups at 20 yards. The softness increased and at 130 this is a very soft shooting powder as would be expected. Double taps and drills were a breeze even with the smaller lighter P-07. Glad i purchased 8 lbs of it. It compares very closely with N320 in just about every aspect. i think we have a winner and at the same price as Promo what more could you want.
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Update. Today I fired the most accurate 9mm load I have ever tried. 4.3 of Sport Pistol with an RMR 124 grain hollow point loaded to 1.130 with Winchester primers. 5 rounds went almost in the same hole at 25 yards, absolutely no smoke and nothing has ever been cleaner burning. I tried this load with 3 different guns, Shadow, CZ 75 Pre-B with 10X and my P-09. All 3 guns produced nearly identical groups. The new RMR jacketed hollow points in combination with the new Sport Pistol is an absolute winner. And to add, very soft shooting. My search is over.
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Update. Today I fired the most accurate 9mm load I have ever tried. 4.3 of Sport Pistol with an RMR 124 grain hollow point loaded to 1.130 with Winchester primers. 5 rounds went almost in the same hole at 25 yards, absolutely no smoke and nothing has ever been cleaner burning. I tried this load with 3 different guns, Shadow, CZ 75 Pre-B with 10X and my P-09. All 3 guns produced nearly identical groups. The new RMR jacketed hollow points in combination with the new Sport Pistol is an absolute winner. And to add, very soft shooting. My search is over.
This doesn't help my "needs" list... Now I "need" those bullets to go with this powder!
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Yes, you guys are not helping my bank account! I just picked up 8# of HP-38 and 1K RMR 124 gr FMJ, now I'm trying to rationalize some Sport Pistol and JHP...
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Update. Today I fired the most accurate 9mm load I have ever tried. 4.3 of Sport Pistol with an RMR 124 grain hollow point loaded to 1.130 with Winchester primers. 5 rounds went almost in the same hole at 25 yards
Just saw Bowenbuilt, a guy over at the Benos forums who I know to do lots and lots of meticulous load testing, describe Alliant Sport Pistol as:
...accurate as hell with most any jacketed bullet i have tried it with.
I need to lose some of the powder I have to make room for a newcomer.
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The thread at Benos was not about Sport Pistol, so no reason to link the whole thread here. It would be woefully off-topic, but if you would like to see the entire post by Bowenbuilt that I quoted from:
i just started using Sport Pistol because when the air got muggy with lots of humidity both Prima V and Clean Shot started smoking like a freight train. Sport Pistol is very low smoke and loads just like N320. Fills the case nicely, is relatively clean like 320, low flash and low report and is accurate as hell with most any jacketed bullet i have tried it with. It is priced about the same as Promo and it meters very well. If the boys at ATK were shooting for a cheap N320 i'd say they nailed it.
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Shot more than 500 rounds today in practice doing Bill Drills and other stuff. The more I shoot SP the better I like it. Started with a clean gun, ended with a clean gun. No gunk, no heavy build up, no unburned power and only a light gray smoking inside the gun. Today with the light humidity absolutely no smoke. I am ordering more!This stuff is outstanding!
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Thought I would respond to this thread for my data on Alliant Sport Pistol loads. I have to say I am very happy with the results of these loads. I loaded 3.6 and 3.7 grains of Sport Pistol with a 135 grain Black Bullet International HI TEK coated round nose bullet. Accuracy was very good. Below is my chronograph data from this evening for those who are interested.
Equipment
Created: 08/04/17 05:40 PM
Pistol: CZ P09
OAL: 1.120"
Primer: Win SPP
Powder: 3.6gr Alliant Sport Pistol
Distance to Chrono: 12.00ft
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.135
Bullet Weight(gr): 135gr Black Bullet Int, Hi-Tek coated
Temp: 78°F
BP: 28.14 inHg
Altitude: 800.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
10 990 293.85 133.65
9 982 289.12 132.57
8 992 295.03 133.92
7 995 296.82 134.32
6 993 295.63 134.05
5 982 289.12 132.57
4 991 294.44 133.79
3 989 293.25 133.51
2 992 295.03 133.92
1 982 289.12 132.57
Average: 988.8 FPS
SD: 5.0 FPS
Min: 982 FPS
Max: 995 FPS
Spread: 13 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.5
True MV: 996 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00
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Here is my chronograph data for 3.7 grains of Sport Pistol. Shot this evening as well.
Equipment:
Created: 08/04/17 05:38 PM
Pistol: CZ P 09
Powder: 3.7gr Alliant Sport Pistol
OAL: 1.120"
Primer: Win SPP
Distance to Chrono: 12.00 ft
Ballistic Coefficient: 0.135
Bullet Weight(gr): 135gr Black Bullet Intl, Hi-Tek coated
Temp: 79°F
BP: 28.14 inHg
Altitude: 800.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
10 1017 310.09 137.29
9 1019 311.31 137.57
8 1013 307.66 136.76
7 1018 310.70 137.43
6 1022 313.15 137.97
5 1008 304.63 136.08
4 1003 301.61 135.40
3 1024 314.38 138.24
2 1008 304.63 136.08
1 1003 301.61 135.40
Average: 1013.5 FPS
SD: 7.6 FPS
Min: 1003 FPS
Max: 1024 FPS
Spread: 21 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.5
True MV: 1021 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00
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was there a difference in accuracy between 3.6 and 3.7?
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sorry for the late reply. i did not notice any difference in accuracy. I was shooting off hand though.
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It finally arrived...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/5zdE_WVzUgjmvlw88ZfDLuxF3tjsxl_BmulQh1pxUJZSrEIfFld1lhGipUlz9LU8oh1vIKKCDPN-6xtgW7a-sRYtf_Ogvqkw91osHOjEssEZnaP7v6CjymUPcxGJW2i25OxTchSqHLvnLtN1Zo0Z6iSc-zTiFbpXfdYHLHbBBi8tbUoZT3UxCOW8LPlDgmq6wtNVtijZUJauJjbMG1u6cA96s0EFZpE7gMAPzKMOhvq-edHeyh-KXD4E5sAGqTRE_ATvdIjSCY7KTRzXsPRVNzfqCKo4IdqoDzOexYCdNrhmRRydDBYM7w0I0rjVfhRJ2eIFlDJzSjJoCM9MIlRFtLTjLhOB0r3tES0Kzq2jXD9qs9peXbLf9tftZlh7J1MkDVXKCfkIKCq-NYh7l5QUZOKo_bZ7xoG5z2zi-2nbDzpKaGc76UVkWLvQzP04mxsnqIHemfBXIsNF5jQpAoVW_1YRH5RPBP9dvNISJHks5KyOBpvBIphOoO45j1pTwY9B6jVmo5h1KpchKOFVQz0HwBCrMbinGcnIeFoxXf7DVaOj-If1jF_-JxP_a89pD8wukplcnDt5R2SG_AXxutJLdF3reiA62qxOpP0ijNQ=w640-h480-no)
This stuff is a flattened ball powder with a graphite coating. It looks a lot like W231, but the flecks are smaller and vary somewhat in size. It's like they use 3 different flake making machines to make the product. Anyway, this photo looks different to me than the one at the beginning of this thread. Here's a photo of the product received today in the Alliant bottle cap...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/kY2q_PqIkQrqwroRIyA_u1dt7sSeHgtFma4AWSL8HtT-PCp1Jw1BuPii6nKPsE80FnqnU1wQBDbcyf0Jidqsp_aTJPo_dybA7YPJn7TOQ1aUkdZqCKEdcmrpaXeusBp-FocUO3XrZdH234qyFtbuCxIIm_Td7_-B4Y5g9FwhM4EDcL30fQpZp0XCwU0U5xV-mxLn-H2OJAaZP7pxTf1TeLB7mXwLgldRd2JraFhxaeznSyumN2PCIfAQNSBCPe6mMS--lCcGqaZu0BHkhdNc8Vp9MP7kcvGJSWcaHrucz8uGQ5Px6mQHiLN01RmAJfYxQVt9qNGiYyDq9ZwEIsJ5Vn4Ek9KyQky65IP6Y1IYJnqDmfYUX4pTpslUWRKa9PxgiY-OdMxtG_GjTC-_NtI6iq-aCHoRXlEwX4f8_zQOVUUpujwnyLsrQvQmdLLx3yEVwHoFaKg1Iq4QLSPcEZfBY3N90nxTxmqhk2y2FT_PyUkQCLHqPbmkBlS6YaE3ky0Vv5NEma246eXLPP8Nd7k0RdugRYBgW_KyBqbvwTN58AmC991iyR0EbNf7kzbOhhvlBmFUPcvm4EHDOQ6_aCSFKCpLi4YlSBcUknpKShA=w640-h480-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/F3FThdRQa2VeybuapNAj6MgRkrMGbAd6QDAF88_c-z5m-4ZswLrdglWaDBZa1EVhyXGbudpYhgbHpvAQNQpbTgbRHZ2BB2GqyZVI_9efWvYwJmNiEZaV8YGsqvUKbB2kacOWuBAOsPhQnHFui2xCoBn9o1EimVmsx-XLIz0t5o7gbki3e6KrVChSDClh38c4QiCUZn6E5vFY50uFxSsILEibJdzxhtVTQ5mhLCrgFxRxI1_-g9V_cL_x6Tq8-0eKNfJjGRpp8xkQYK6UpDNDGAtFr80uzznFlh3DrAvTrtUG73hqGoR9gGsPIlfOOTOw28m9dtGRJl1CiF9qGrOwCQXTvKMtPZHOx9PpRtC370-h9YBN7HV_-J6uyEZK8YZIVTQf-fG8z_Ahui3Y67EfeiSvPFgX9Z7DMF2kVbWXso-uuK-KZoA-6NcsLVK2HTeF5rJQVFOwcPs0AKmyhjl4anQQKabJIDShTxxcXZaXUs-OzGQY4xLMNVjTP3_0m_VYPkJUCO09HUVbmvDSyuVWkbZUzPLjT7_2nCjDXCG5sVG0yiSu9QamRYsK7VGgOY3wueaWmVYvovMtoIRTx-NVIMNPlMwXSqaKhsWUC1k=w480-h640-no)
• It does meter very good. I need more test time to say more than that.
• Particle size is such that it does not "leak" from a standard Dillon powder measure.
• The load data shows it being as frugal to use as W231/HP-38. Loads for typical 124gr JHP seem to be in the 4.0 to 4.1gr arena.
• Packaging is in the standard Alliant cylindrical plastic bottle. Weight is 1 lb. Bottle is approximately 3/4 full when new, meaning this is a powder of average density.
• Case fill is excellent in 9x19mm. Shown below is 4.2gr in a Luger case. Just enough to prevent a double charge, but not enough to slosh out in a merry-go-round progressive...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/rJBrC3EHiqoz_aHlOzitpuIX4xTbZYPtGC00EI-FtOEiK-ZNz42Hf9xjgh_CaLZZg5acKK_oXj-AoYSdqrHgZmga1ufg2WZTZyzaVvjaI_56n24P_WjpfGpkmRKKGWUBoNp9N1eCqGXOrFS5nPC2JZOVpWd-dU2fznmbcmQKnKUYWINaBnUcDHZQOe3l26iyWTC2RxufkPoViI8TldHiPiglM5QFas4snLH1gUs6jLUPFrccqFIEwH7oxQ-HxY92xH0fMHZDFUiZfkS-OqiQnjRpTbPTeLUDCelT7yfGyeJtJz32or6oIcT8yi5gftHJ4mEHiuoEP5U9HcpjvAaPF7UtLpUVpGl0dLVKeCQWMpnkots3f0NsUNuoVYxItP3J4uiycAOh4-9fHNy7Aq_5qzPnnfLYTJDNJ-VIsAFnJyylrWBGa24NT3n9ZgSP9p1EYJuQif5l5nEFFQoks-uuD3t0kxFzqiUbNoGLInF5G2ABco3oIk16jCNZktNYQThFIIYWdg1csp4T3SYDcyuxxHnqAij2CqlYB8EmX56WleYyX1RodkT3_K2EAsAIg4Bo8WGFfMcjRhJ_DdsszftT5USwGbjd341mGKoHFyQ=w640-h480-no)
I've got my incremental loads worked up with Precision Delta 124gr JHP seated to 1.100", 3.8gr to 4.4gr in 0.1gr increments.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/TBjX9_-HVktY8kxiStIR1mcfVvaC4GVusZlVEnLVRRcqFVN6sXoYceXm1Tpa12qvB-XpAIDtpgdHsBhbJ68G7_KGOCgxTNbhQ6sAz62dvnmt7D0AFxdT8tFLEt_j-_9hgYSUNR9SCKTl3HCnqah4pZd_2zdORY0MEsIZZL4CnB3hYqn7sEjCveZ5PPGMnh63AckYLppOmUWIY1xKB2UJrjhe_T0Vf2GPR3zkTGRS7gp8_DR9pCROP1ixgNp95Yg2evw93O4y6qjNd8OEBhHGEcBNOExBF0BLjkSAnPwSETbLWumsMHqkjQpva0ymt7hx7MZCLztBntKB403mM_Hf7hwTMJpSvdv8CExQbwe7yKu_7MoGy4H832myXob40P2Gtcvh6ajIPUG5kb9kCPIcI4IOobP1BO5FHdkbO4tDmbb7t25jn80oShcuA6RmAuG_4m_8tpiYWLogL9cGWOOEBTpT2HyPck9_I2heVrUxlHflelFSFdFBlTXGGuVe4qcmWPE9tnMNjx8kvdeO34YOsZ2r1SZ6YWDaNA9kxq0eXkJ9JDthUDda54ceGPsw2Bz6ybozFVs01BBytGPIlVxJZ45o2Ul_EMSY7b3YsRQ=w640-h480-no)
I'll report back on Sunday with results.
;)
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Good info all so far.
Easy to meter.
Good load spread.
Previous chrono results looked well-behaved. Looking forward to Wobbly's results to compare with the 124 JHP PDs.
......cleanliness,/spent case codition
......muzzle flash
......accuracy:.(not optimal when chronoing but a sense of potential works)
......heat?
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Just picked up some at Bruno?s in Phoenix. They asked what?s going on this stuff is flying off the shelf. I?m going to load up a ladder this weekend using Berry?s 124gr HBRN starting at 3.8 and working up, OAL will be 1.125. Does this sound right?
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Just picked up some at Bruno?s in Phoenix. They asked what?s going on this stuff is flying off the shelf. I?m going to load up a ladder this weekend using Berry?s 124gr HBRN starting at 3.8 and working up, OAL will be 1.125. Does this sound right?
Based on what Berry's says on the page for that bullet:
https://www.berrysmfg.com/item/bp-9mm-356-124gr-hbrn-tp
"The bullet profile is longer but the weight remains the same and you can load these bullets using any published load data for a jacketed bullet as long as it is the same weight bullet."
Then referring to the Alliant load data here:
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?type=1&powderid=42&cartridge=23
124 gr FMJ
Min OAL: 1.12
Max Charge Weight: 4.5 gr
Reduce by 10% and start from there. 90% of 4.5 gr is 4.05 gr, so your starting charge appears that it would be lower and a safe starting point.
*****BUT......
Berry's has some confusing language on their site about using FMJ or lead data. The reloading pros on here might give you additional guidance...
******* PS
Alliant lists load data for the Speer 124 gr RN TMJ, which is seen here:
https://www.speer-ammo.com/bullets/handgun-bullets/tmj-handgun-plinking-bullets/355/355-124-tmj-bullet
That load data is different and Ive read that the Speer TMJ is a thicker plating than what Berry's normally uses. That is just what I've read, and I haven't called the manufacturers. That being said you can give that load a try. It is a longer OAL... That is what I will definitely defer to the pros on here to see what they say.
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*****BUT......
Berry's has some confusing language on their site about using FMJ or lead data. The reloading pros on here might give you additional guidance...
The HBRN-TP bullets are "thick plated" and Berry Bullets rated to 1500FPS. I use these for my "Practice Self Defense Loads" at around 1200 fps' same as the more expensive Speer 124 gr Gold Dots in my EDC.
I've shot many thousands of the BRY 124 HBRN-TP. The only difference in load results I've seen is that the "Hollow Base" provides more air volume below the bullet base than than the bullet length and oal indicates. Over a chrono it will be slightly slower than a flat base bullet of the same weight and type at the same "seating depth".
Hope this makes sense and helps.
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Thanks for the info. I think 3.8 will be low but just want to be on the safe side.I figure I?ll probably end up around 4.2 or 4.3.
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Just picked up some at Bruno?s in Phoenix. They asked what?s going on this stuff is flying off the shelf. I?m going to load up a ladder this weekend using Berry?s 124gr HBRN starting at 3.8 and working up, OAL will be 1.125. Does this sound right?
I just had a buddy pick up a pound from Bruno's while he was down in the valley. It was on sale for 20 per pound.
I'm going to work up a 40 load with my 165gr rnfp plated bullets. I may also work up a load with some 180gr rnfp plated as well.
Cheers,
Toby
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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Copper plating is thinner and thus more malleable than a copper jacket and should obturate better than a copper jacket, and better obturation means higher pressure when all else is equal. I suspect plated bullets obturate more like lead than a jacketed bullet, which would incline me toward using lead data for plated.
Also, virtually all jacketed 9mm bullets are .355 whereas plated bullets might be .355 or might be .356. If I were using .356 plated, I would definitely default to lead bullet data.
And that said, I stopped shooting plated bullets completely quite some time ago, so don't listen to me. I don't know jack. ;)
(Note from Moderator.... But you do know Larry !! O0 )
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Copper plating is thinner and thus more malleable than a copper jacket and should obturate better than a copper jacket, and better obturation means higher pressure when all else is equal. I suspect plated bullets obturate more like lead than a jacketed bullet, which would incline me toward using lead data for plated.
Also, virtually all jacketed 9mm bullets are .355 whereas plated bullets might be .355 or might be .356. If I were using .356 plated, I would definitely default to lead bullet data.
And that said, I stopped shooting plated bullets completely quite some time ago, so don't listen to me. I don't know jack. ;)
With that said by using the data for lead bullets I should be right in the ball park at starting my ladder at 3.8 and going up from there. Thanks for the info IDescribe
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I've got my eye out and would definitely like to try Sport Pistol if I come across it at any of my local stores.
That said, the thing that has impressed me the most out of this entire thread was the PRISTINE condition of Wobbly's press. Mine has never been that clean, even when it was new! Do you eat off that thing?!? ;)
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I have a helper...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/z-4h4itYUFRTCYA4UXMQHsl55y_GtXUiO9izLpNDsc71UbrIeTmNUg_4E6R0LyJXRgCDkjQOgpH-I5E5eA0mYRDFL0HKCweuj3xDMhTV7Rotguxt0yKNY0333ChbASxVrTBdpbQW_s-jxQyzJIwQRK9gLiN2sjEI-2Go7ymr02xKpTxie0Jkw8KZ_D7T8Q4Wgb6udsMnI_DSQunV5F4K1MqIgk8XSAVU6L-HHFeqSYsm43vcnEvHQfVR1p3jBDGds22aT_fCplsKHuXtC3SuHr2Q7WGlFevYLnZcX3nxqn4kiYcZuTleuO7V8asQ13enIVpsuOVgKrmFJe6LhzFpKrnLd25WZS2yGBVXNu2V250fT5qT3HaU6rrPXUa0QsjeHzmHb0cPcfUxuIECY74md-awCyFmDOwB8SwGG_Awm_gwArlnYIajUmAfq6egnXEckimF0BAXt9hPg8DHsryLPs2wK4RCdzlaabNFCRhrwD3uczs5ZuZzZWuBbkC22mD194VMhwe00GyhG5djBuwKK42X0grRxndv_JcAJO7IaJ0zE-1g9t3djN0GxyzdUYTiffrlx67YS4pkvCYtAGWrIXEVau0gaucb_hqifXpytDyHDhMvBPwG5p6yeMLfsHHL7-1geZQVMITg3KDC-jtv-XnTAOPHwx1e=w432-h504-no)
;D
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Those are my results :
The bullets were 124gr Xtreme RN
OAL is 1.120"
Using S&B primers - SP
The gun was the Canik P120
10 rounds per loads
Mixed brass
Temperature was 52 degrees.
Powder Load AVG fps AVG PF
3.9gr 1007 124
4.0gr 1028 127
4.1gr 1039 128
4.2gr 1067 132
4.3gr 1078 133
4.4gr 1086 134
4.5gr 1101 136
Bottom line:
The powder measures very well in my Lee dispenser.
The Sport Pistol measure similarly to Titegroup with comparable results.
This powder seams to burn cleaner, with less residue than TG.
Loads at 4.3gr and above have an stronger recoil kick with an 11lb RSA. Stronger spring might be needed.
Accuracy was "best" at 4.1gr and bellow, but acceptable at 4.2gr and above.
Again, it is overall very comparable to Titegroup.
My future load for the Canik P120 and the Sport Pistol powder will be set at 4.1gr 124gr RN and OAL 1.12
Read more: http://canikdiscussions.com/thread/2497/alliant-sport-pistol-powder-load#ixzz59Iw0Kjig
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Just picked up some at Bruno's in Phoenix. They asked what's going on this stuff is flying off the shelf. Going to load up a ladder this weekend using Berry 124gr HBRN starting at 3.8 and working up, OAL will be 1.125. Does this sound right?
I just picked up 2 pounds of it at Bruno's today! My first time there. Just learned about that place. Seems to be popular for a little hole in the wall spot. Good prices, I'll be back for sure!
http://www.brunoshooters.com/
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I finally bought my self a chrono and was able to get the range today for some testing. I tested Sport Pistol along with my previous Tite Group loads. I used mixed range brass, CCI SP primers, and Precision Delta 124gr JHP @ OAL of 1.095 +/- .002 shot outta my SP-01.
All data 9mm
Sport Pistol at 4.0gr ( 5 rounds )
AVG 1078
StdDev 8.46
Min 1067
Max 1088
Spread 21
Sport Pistol at 4.1gr ( 5 rounds )
AVG 1093
StdDev 14.95
Min 1079
Max 1117
Spread 38
Tite Group at 3.9gr ( 5 rounds )
AVG 1103.2
StdDev 11.95
Min 1086
Max 1115
Spread 29
Tite Group at 4.0gr ( 5 rounds )
AVG 1109
StdDev 14.94
Min 1092
Max 1129
Spread 37
Thought it was interesting there was wasn't much difference between the two TG loads. I am thinking I can drop the SP down to 3.8. I will make a 5 round at batch at 3.7, 3.8 and 3.9 to see what I get.
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Interesting that your 124 PD JHP @ 1.095" (Same OAL I use with the same bullets) with 4.0 grs of SP gives 133.6 PF.
Mine with 4.1 grs of Vit n320 give about 132+ PF. --- my comp. load.
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My testing of strings of different lengths suggests that there is a significant difference in average velocity of strings of 5 rounds vs 10 rounds, but not much difference between 10 rounds and 20 rounds: I run 10 round ladders as a result. Food for thought. :)
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My testing of strings of different lengths suggests that there is a significant difference in average velocity of strings of 5 rounds vs 10 rounds, but not much difference between 10 rounds and 20 rounds: I run 10 round ladders as a result. Food for thought. :)
to get a better sample average, 5 is not telling the whole story sometimes, yet as a quickie it gets you pointed in the right direction
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I start with 6 round groups to get me in the ballpark. Then go back and re-visit with 10+ round groups when I know a little more.
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My testing of strings of different lengths suggests that there is a significant difference in average velocity of strings of 5 rounds vs 10 rounds, but not much difference between 10 rounds and 20 rounds: I run 10 round ladders as a result. Food for thought. :)
I will make 10 round batches ranging from 3.7 thru 4.1 for next week. If I am gonna do it I prefer to get as much data as possible and do it right. I am very green at testing rounds and developing loads, would elevation affect the velocity of the same load specifications? I am testing these rounds in Denver area.
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...would elevation affect the velocity of the same load specifications? I am testing these rounds in Denver area.
Elevation, humidity, temperature, brand of brass, primers, distance, bullet, type of chrono, gun, number of cups of coffee while loading, and 100 other variables all figure into the final figures. All you can do is be as careful as you can and report as many of these as you can think of.
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Anti-2A weatherman says I won't be testing anything outside tomorrow.
:P
You might want to record the number of cups of coffee you had while loading now. You might not remember by the time you get to shoot these. ;)
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Has anyone established where SP is on the burn rate chart? Interested for 9mm.
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Has anyone established where SP is on the burn rate chart? Interested for 9mm.
I haven't found it on any burn rate charts.
Alliant calls it medium-fast.
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It?s somewhere between N320 and W231/HP38
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It?s somewhere between N320 and W231/HP38
Is that published, or reported?
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It?s somewhere between N320 and W231/HP38
Thanks for the reply. Wow! Even faster than Unique. Interesting. Can't wait to see more range reports. That in my opinion points to its effciency. I was curious seeing the velocity with relatively low charge weight.
Very interested.
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I posted pictures earlier on in this thread showing how clean Sport Pistol burns. I?ve run over 2k rounds since then and most were through my SP-01. I?ve cleaned my barrel once, the feed ramp twice. Nothing else in it has been cleaned. No malfunctions and it?s way cleaner than any other time I?ve done this. This is the powder for Joe L!
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It?s somewhere between N320 and W231/HP38
Is that published, or reported?
According to Alliant, somewhere between American Select and GreenDot.
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It?s somewhere between N320 and W231/HP38
Is that published, or reported?
According to Alliant, somewhere between American Select and GreenDot.
According to the burn rate charts I've seen, both N320 and 231 are faster than American Select and Green Dot.
Is it on a chart anywhere?
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Th Hodgdon burn rate chart has American Select faster than Solo 1000, WST, N320, AA2, and HP38/W231, and it has HP38/W231 almost as slow as Unique. Then, Vihtavuori has HP38/W231 as fast as N310 (which it isn't). Viht also has N320 as fast as AA2, which it isn't, at least not in 9mm. ;) Western has American Select and N320 on the same tier.
Relative burn rates can flip flop when you change calibers, and that's one of the reasons the different company's burn rate charts don't match. At this point, I pretty much only care about burn rates within a given caliber, and if two powders take the same powder charge to get to roughly the same velocity in the same caliber with the same bullet, I'd say they're roughly the same burn rate (in that caliber).
In my data, N320 and HP38 are very similar in 9mm in terms of what it takes to get to a particular velocity with a particular bullet. And American Select is a little faster, very similar to Bullseye and Titegroup. In jmh013's Sport Pistol data, it looks like Sport pistol is just a hair slower than Titegroup. So maybe SP is also a little faster than N320 and HP38?
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IDescribe, I see what you mean. That's why a powder maybe better in 9mm than .45 AP? Pressure would have to effect burn rate.
I've become a fan of Longshot in 9mm and .40 but bought CFE Pistol for the .45 AP. Looks like good results are coming out for SP for the 9mm.
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I just got a lb of sport pistol and shot a little with it yesterday. Since Ive never loaded with it before only loaded up a total of 50 rounds with it over a couple different charge weights but my initial experience with it was good. Seems to be very clean and pretty accurate also, looking forward to more extensive trials.
Also got a lb of the new Winchester 244, Vectan 9 1/2, and VV N330, plan to put them all through their paces, pick a winner, buy in bulk, and shoot a lot. ;D
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According to the burn rate charts I've seen, both N320 and 231 are faster than American Select and Green Dot. Is it on a chart anywhere?
Here is what I received from Alliant. I took out the name of the person responding....
We can only answer this as to where the Sport Pistol falls in on the Alliant burn rate chart. The Sport Pistol falls between American Select and Green Dot. Keep in mind, and you most likely know this, burn rate charts are only relative.
Thanks,
Technical Services Rep
Alliant/Blazer/CCI/Speer
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Range Report for new test loads for Sport Pistol from 3.7 to 4.0 in 0.1 increments. Same parameters as before with the exception these were all 10 shot strings. Pistol was my SP-01, the bullet is Precision Delta 124gr JHP, Primers Federal SP, mixed range brass, OAL 1.095 +/- .002. Weather conditions were 54F and BP 30.12 inHG. There was also a slight difference in the distance of the chrono versus last time. First test chrono was 10ft and this time it was about 7ft.
Precision Delta 124gr JHP
Sport Pistol 4.0 gr
AVG 1070.6
StdDev 15.39
Min 1052
Max 1106
Spread 54
Precision Delta 124gr JHP
Sport Pistol 3.9 gr
AVG 1034.5
StdDev 16.95
Min 993
Max 1053
Spread 60
Precision Delta 124gr JHP
Sport Pistol 3.8 gr
AVG 1029.1
StdDev 13.46
Min 1006
Max 1042
Spread 36
Precision Delta 124gr JHP
Sport Pistol 3.7 gr
AVG 1017.6
StdDev 9.24
Min 999
Max 1029
Spread 30
I may have had a light load in the 3.9 group as you can see a speed of 993 as the Min. Taking that out I get a 9 shot AVG of 1039.1. I do think the SP powder is cleaner than TG.
[Mods added missing information]
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Thank you for your work, I know how it is demanding to keep accurate record of everything.
Would you be trying 4.1gr and above or settle on what you have?
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Great results and economical loads!
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Equipment
Caliber: 9x19 Luger
Bullets: Precision Delta 124gr JHP
Brass: Winchester
Powder: Alliant Sport Pistol (3.8gr to 4.4gr)
Max Velocity: 1085fps
Primer: Winchester Small Pistol (WSP)
OAL: 1 .110"
Pistol: SP-01 Tac
Qty: 6 rounds each, slow fired
Weather: 50F and clear, 4PM light
Chrono: ProChrono
Load Avg Vel SD
3.8 969 27
3.9 988 4
4.0 1016 13
4.1 1063 17
4.2 1094 23 +P Load
4.3 1119 29 +P Load
4.4 1130 19 +P Load
Notes
• This powder burned remarkably clean, even at 3.8gr, with zero trash
• I attribute the 20-something SD numbers to the powder and not my reloading technique
• I would recommend 4.1gr for competition and 4.0gr for general plinking
• At ~4.1gr the sights were aimed true for 50 foot targets
• It is very easy to exceed the Max chamber pressure with this powder
• A good time was had by all
Hope this helps ! ;)
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Wow, very efficient powder. Need to find some after I get past my .45 loads.
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Caliber: 9x19 Luger
Bullets: Precision Delta 124gr JHP
Brass: Winchester
Powder: Alliant Sport Pistol (3.8gr to 4.4gr)
Primer: Winchester Small Pistol (WSP)
OAL: 1 .110"
Pistol: SP-01 Tac
Qty: 6 rounds each, slow fired
Weather: 50F and clear, 4PM light
Chrono: ProChrono
Load Avg Vel SD
3.8 969 27
3.9 988 4
4.0 1016 13
4.1 1063 17
4.2 1094 23
4.3 1119 29
4.4 1130 19
NOTES
? This powder burned remarkably clean, even at 3.8gr, with zero trash
? I attribute the 20-something SD numbers to the powder and not my reloading technique
? I would recommend 4.1gr for competition and 4.0-4.2gr for general plinking
? At ~4.1gr the sights were aimed true for 50 foot targets
? A good time was had by all
Hope this helps ! ;)
Thank you Wobbly for researching those loads. As always those are very informative.
I see you used 1.11 and jmh013 pushed it down to 1.095. Why would you compress the load bellow the suggested OAL of 1.12? and 1.12 is for FMJ, yours is HP, it should be even longer, right?
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I see you used 1.110" and jmh013 pushed it down to 1.095". Why would you compress the load bellow the suggested OAL of 1.120 ? And 1.120" is for FMJ, yours is HP, it should be even longer, right?
Simply because 1.110" is the Max OAL in my 9mm SP-01 barrel.
;)
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I see you used 1.110 and jmh013 pushed it down to 1.095. Why would you compress the load below the suggested OAL of 1.120 ? And 1.120 is for FMJ, yours is HP, it should be even longer, right?
Compressing a load is a very specific thing. It describes when the powder column is high enough and the bullet is seated deeply enough that the powder is actually compressed into a smaller volume, it's bulk density increasing, and both the speed at and depth to which the particles from the primer will pass through the powder are affected, and the burn is affected. In other words, compressing a load changes the burn, and depending on the powder and caliber, it can change pressures dramatically. It can be a big deal with powders in calibers where it happens -- usually rifle.
I see you used 1.11 and jmh013 pushed it down to 1.095. Why would you compress the load below the suggested OAL of 1.2? and 1.2 is for FMJ, yours is HP, it should be even longer, right?
Pretty sure you meant 1.12, per Alliant's load data for generic 124gr JHP or 124gr GDHP. The OAL in load data is NOT a suggestion. It's not something that YOU are supposed to follow. It is the OAL that the company used when testing their loads with the powder. That's all it is. Every loader should determine his maximum OAL with every bullet loaded by one of the many methods described repeatedly at sites like this, not go by whatever is in the load data. NOW, IF you are using the same bullet, and you are loading to an OAL slightly shorter than what's in the load data, you may assume you are operating at slightly higher pressures than what's in the load data to reach the same velocities listed in the load data. IF you are loading to an OAL that is significantly shorter than what's reported in the load data, you should assume your increases in pressure are also signficant, and it's recommended that you reduce the charge window in the load data accordingly.
I see you used 1.11 and jmh013 pushed it down to 1.095. Why would you compress the load below the suggested OAL of 1.2? and 1.12 is for FMJ, yours is HP, it should be even longer, right?
Someone just said something recently about JHP loading longer than FMJ-RN. This is not the case. Not sure where that comes from. JHPs (almost) always have shorter max OALs than FMJ-RN. Most FMJ-RN and even plated RN will load longer than the magazine will allow in CZ pistols, many of them out longer than 1.200, so you can load it to the magazine max of 1.169 if you like, but most people pull it down to somewhere between 1.14 and 1.16. Most JHPs in CZ pistols will fall somewhere between 1.05 and 1.11. JHPs simply load shorter, like truncated cones, the noses are lopped off, making them shorter. ;)
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I am enlightened buy your guys comments, thank you, and you were correct, it was an OAL of 1.12.
(My OP was corrected from an erroneous OAL of 1.2 to the correct OAL of 1.12)
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Alliant CS responds to my request for a sense of the burn rate....
Per Speer #15 "Relative Burn Rate Chart", Sport Pistol and American Select are at the same level as Hodgdon International, Winchester's WSL and Vihtavouri's N320 propellants.
Bullseye is faster, and Green Dot slower.
Thanks,
Jared Hinton
Communications Coordinator l Federal Premium, CCI, Savage Arms
Jared.Hinton@vistaoutdoor.com
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Cool beans!
Looks like I might want to load a little bit longer if I try ASP.
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So I got out and shot my 40 load development. I think this is going to be my next bulk powder purchase! Stellar accuracy, consistent powder drop, and clean burning.
Equipment:
Caliber: 40 S&W
Bullets: American Reloading Pulled 165gr Plated
Brass: Winchester
Powder: Alliant Sport Pistol (5.0 gr to 5.4 gr)
Max Velocity: 1059 fps
Primer: Federal SP Match
OAL: 1.130 inch
Pistol: Tactical Sport Orange
Qty: 10 rounds each, slow fired two groups of 5
Distance: 10 yd
Weather: 45F and windy, 3 PM light
Chrono: Caldwell G1
Load (gr) Avg Vel (fps) ST Dev (fps) Range (fps) Spread (in)
5.0 1004 8.5 22 0.96
5.1 1015 8.4 20 0.83
5.2 1032 6.8 17.5 0.83
5.3 1052 3.7 9 1.0
5.4 1067 6.1 15 0.81 Max Load
Notes
• This powder burned fairly clean (not as clean as Maxam CSB-5 but better than Power Pistol). I had some case soot until 5.2 gr then it was clean. It was interesting to review the data and see the SD numbers tighten up right at the point the soot disappeared.
• I am going to load up at around 5.3 gr for USPSA major, the low ST Dev and accuracy was good (one of the groups was my fault and inflated the average)
• I didn't see any signs of pressure with any of these loads.
Thanks Wobbly for the template!
Cheers,
Toby
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Interesting stuff, thanks.
I loaded CSB5 for 9mm when it first came into this country ..illegally it turns out. In Spain it's a shotgun powder.
It was sold in 4# jugs illegally repackaged from large drums of CSB5. It didn't burn bad with minor PF 9mm loads. Performance compared closely to Win 231....a little sooty at 4.5-ish grains under a 124 gr jacketted bullet.
I still have several pounds of the CSB 5 as a backup 9mm powder.
The flattened disks juuuust fit in a 9mm case primer hole :).
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I worked up some loads with Sport pistol today. Here are my results
Equipment
Caliber: 9mm Luger
Bullet: Xtreme plated 124 GR round nose
OAL: 1.120"
Primer: Winchester
Brass: Speer (once fired)
Firearm: CZ Shadow 2
Temp: 48F
10 rounds each round of testing
3.9 of SP
Average- 1002 FPS
Power Factor- 124
4.0gr of SP
Average- 1017
Power Factor- 126
4.1gr of SP
Average- 1022 (1048 when retested)
Power Factor- 126 (130 when retested)
4.2gr of SP
Average- 1056
Power Factor- 131
I was going for a PF of around 130. There was a pretty big gain from 4.1 & 4.2 but not so much going up 0.1 grain with the lower loads. I'm torn on what to use for competition 4.1 or 4.2. I do shoot another gun with a longer barrel too so 4.1 would probably do OK in that one. What do you guys think? Make up a batch of 4.1 and see if it knocks down steel? My lowest FFS with 4.1gr was 994 and highest was 1044. Seems like a big spread. Perhaps I need to do further testing with the 4.1gr.
Let me know what you guys think- I'm still new to reloading
Thanks
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Okay, 4.1gr shouldn?t even be under consideration. Lots of those shots won?t make power factor. You should want the slowest bullets you make to clear power factor.
Also, why have you decided you want a PF of 130? Let me explain something about power factor. In your 4.1gr ladder, you had an extreme spread of 50 feet/sec. That?s a power factor spread of 6.2. That means you likely had some power factor swings of 3 or 4 from one shot to the next a couple of occasions shooting that ladder. Did you notice recoil swings from one shot to the next? Of course, not. Yet you can find people saying that they like a PF of 130, but 133 is a little stout. Meanwhile, they?re experiencing power factor swings of 3 or more while shooting and never notice the difference.
The point is that you can?t feel the difference in recoil from modest changes in velocity, so don?t worry about getting as close to the power factor floor as possible. It?s not going to make you shoot better or faster. Find your most accurate load between PF131 and 137 and shoot it.
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Okay, 4.1gr shouldn't even be under consideration. Lots of those shots won?t make power factor. You should want the slowest bullets you make to clear power factor.
Thanks for the info. I was going for 130 PF because I was told its a good idea to not be right at 125 PF due to the variations. I have some stock Lawman 124 GR that is 134 PF. Wanted to be softer shooting then factory ammo. I could tell a difference between my 4.1 loads and the factory ammo.
I thought of another option of shorting the OAL of the 4.1 loads to see what that does to the velocity. Not sure how much I'd want/need to shorten it to get the velocity where I wanted it. If you have a suggestion I'd be interested in hearing it. If its a bad idea please let me know too.
I do agree that all rounds should be making min power factor at least. I do need to check for accuracy as well. Today I just was checking velocities.
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I was going for a PF of around 130. There was a pretty big gain from 4.1 & 4.2 but not so much going up .1 grain with the lower loads. I'm torn on what to use for competition 4.1 or 4.2. I do shoot another gun with a longer barrel too so 4.1 would probably do ok in that one. What do you guys think? Make up a batch of 4.1 and see if it knocks down steel? My lowest FFS with 4.1 was 994 and highest was 1044. Seems like a big spread. Perhaps I need to do further testing with the 4.1
Let me know what you guys think- I'm still new to reloading
thanks
Rotor,
Looking at your progression of charges and associated velocities, something is off. I'd look closely at your process before continuing load development.
Consistency is king, powder charge, OAL, press pull, etc...
Cheers,
Toby
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3.9 of SP
Average- 1002.8 FPS
Power Factor- 124.347
4.0 of SP
Average- 1017.6
Power Factor- 126.182
4.1 of SP
Average- 1022
Power Factor- 126.765
4.2 of SP
Average- 1056.66
Power Factor- 131.026
Regarding your data:
First, you will do yourself a favor to round the decimals off the velocity and PF numbers. It doesn?t help for you to consider those decimal spots, so probably best of you just ditch them. And since power factor is about reaching a minimum, probably best to round down. A PF of 24.9999 still fails to meet power factor. ;)
Okay, so your 3 incremental velocity gains for increases in charge weight are 15, 5, 34. There are a few ways to account for that.
One is simply that the shinier the projectile, the less precisely the chrono will read them, and XTreme makes shiny shiny bullets.
Two is how you are setting up your drop. You should measure your charge weight with 10 drops and divide by ten for your average drop weight. And whereas it?s pretty useless to calculate decimals for velocity and PF, it can be helpful with charge weights. I?m never going to report load data in this forum with 4.13gr, but I do keep those notes, and I can often see those decimals reflected in the velocities. For example, your 4.0 could be 4.03, your 4.1 could be 4.07, and your 4.2 could be 4.23, so instead of your final to increases in charge weight being +0.1, +0.1, it?s really +0.04, +0.16, and that would account for not all but a lot of the odd numbers you see.
Three ? you haven?t figured out how to set up your chrono well enough.
Four ? your powder drop throws the occasional wonky charge.
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You misunderstand. Throw ten charges from the powder drop, and weigh the ten charges together as one charge, then divide that number by 10. So if you?re shooting for 4.1gr, and you throw ten charges, and weigh them, you?re looking for 41 grains. But you aren?t going to get that. You are going to get 41.3 or something, so your average charge after you divide by 10 is 4.13gr. That?s the way to measure when our are adjusting the drop. You?re taking the average for ten drops that were weighed altogether.
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You misunderstand. Throw ten charges from the powder drop, and weigh the ten charges together as one charge, then divide that number by 10. So if you?re shooting for 4.1gr, and you throw ten charges, and weigh them, you?re looking for 41 grains. But you aren?t going to get that. You are going to get 41.3 or something, so your average charge after you divide by 10 is 4.13gr. That?s the way to measure when our are adjusting the drop. You?re taking the average for ten drops that were weighed altogether.
Oh I see. Ok I will do that. Haven?t been doing that. Great idea.
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Update:
something was off with my 4.1 loads yesterday. So I made sure I got the powder drop right and made quality rounds to retest. Today the results make a lot more sense. Average Velocity was 1048. Please see my original post for all the details (primer, bullet, OAL, shoe size etc). I know you guys really like all the details! I also tested 4.2 loads and they remained consistent with yesterdays testing. Thanks for everyones input.
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Been reading through this whole thread and it?s makes me cry because (1) I?m convinced I need to try Sport Pistol powder and (2) I can?t find ANY Sport Pistol anywhere :(
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You can get it at Powder Valley. Buy 16 pounds to defray the hazmat. Or buy 8 pounds of Sport Pistol and 8 pounds of something else you need. It's not going to be BAD powder. Even if it's not your #1, you'll still use it happily.
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Equipment
Caliber: 9x19 Luger
Bullets: MBC 135gr IDP#8 Hi-Tek coated LRN
Brass: RWS
Powder: Alliant Sport Pistol
Max Velocity: 1075fps (calculated)
Primer: Remington 1-1/2
OAL: 1.130"
Pistol: P10c
Qty: 10 rounds each, slow fired
Weather: 60F and highly overcast
Chrono: ProChrono
Load Avg Vel SD
3.2gr 897 14
3.3 920 12
3.4 934 10
3.5 949 10
3.6 974 8
3.7 Calculated Max Load
Notes
- Burned remarkably clean, even at 3.2gr
- Attribute the low SD numbers to the powder and the brass
- Recommend 3.5-3.6gr for general plinking
- Minor smoke
- Calculated Max Velocity seems to be low. Need more investigation.
- My powder measure is more accurate than ID's
- No tested load would lock the stock P10c slide back
;)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/C0lmgXfD0zrCYOKRzud5EA4Y_IciUDB6lDtJzllpIc8uAq-jF3kCdIeidwGQ25W7aoT4fnQup4PJqiRZCXkenn3OWS0_4XW337jdLaZXCv0TJxnqE2Fw71CmVRn6beVqG0bMd11neubVQ6IM7Z7cEjMXOSHUgn5-e8W5t9vqD0MU26erAW3u5jwG07p9Gj9OhL869ubK-2yJ_b9mweARSC1DpN-NGGaxsk8ab7mmHuwndRaIqJjL87v6WCQUqozmdtHLBuIaoMb8kF7fh72CNbwLRYdtCC5YnMkvWC0LQWxKaqXxuw0FDvNFlnj8KWU2fiTTD0upnwICmTAH1Gj6yhfRN84owjnr-M-bJ9tsRFdg04hiQoPkgFh000bQcNwsaejtcEhT0VJSeIRzYYnEFj2AZKLXXuqpCByUX0VBJLWTwr9MAtGcCLq0kGWxsiIh_6UpvF5b52xfE3Qi6CNJ0IbCUwMyI3Vtpv8GQJEu1ciaT4V_MvBV1xWKZryHde2N3B8LRNT15Gcf2i1vYXeCiu7bF6tnjIItBy4uZ-XTch9oClAGAP5OosR23iWRdUqwfyy97HYIJYqm4SHp17LQ_QYGOesXnitS8XiJzGY=w640-h400-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Oc-Lgyo5dqSiYKzHPXFMv3sA7QMnCu3M-4_Z2zZ4fO_79Rlyw6UmdBKpbhaUmuOu8ou5r9KMrUFPQ9kjGVBKTmRPXQcejbjYfT6GeNfQlyC5jauHNnQVDSxY2Te8TVBlQsTtO3lcp4iIM_CcFtbZsnAfFbaYsURRjIUpLQO1gSo2MFRDcuVHYDPC1YbSvVyvO8pXGjwJAv29k0lIZepaCgRuGrWKOzE8w_nmv3LkswLTlmsXqaTyh8RoJLEYG1jwV7Wqdp6oy2IOmUXVPnjBxylf1IvdIyCuMlAphYqHD0nc7DTZy7WMlEKik4PKUn24v9Ns1Rn3gkuwJuCipAWuj7Kn7Om4gesbgCdHba80zVLG3j8aLwmIK_odTMNTQ7fngjqv8LtiePqTT0qtVEnMsKAfQpw4PW3f6pkOuP4mfcxEA5EqeNLcLVJDnEbNjzbB4TVMWrsYszXGMUTSPIvX0gco0fbRLgksS9_-C-jTYmYaDz82W4qkPgpo7afkkcNpS0ShPz-yK8HVgAU-SDReMSR9WYiZ88qEiVjrzh9QJi8IImBcSj5g7OExTUOh1idgXbLvr1hTNUPBJSvwlZ33FeassE_oDr2vGKs3TYU=w640-h402-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6KaPYeeUwQGI_wPLnOdlNXGTNsu4DlpfVqwLYystus5iIxWMatIMVew0GBoh2ullshfHC3OZSHk5ZqVkjjCIWzokUf0qPQ-IhKINjnQ0jZ7P_h3FDK0PXx57I6xWGld74Cjp0FjuUbCvJZgI1TS8DakHBPloUOyVpBa8B2rsOyYESN8XkmGQ9YP6E2ZBFs3alpUT6N6DEq88DeoO7d3oImjYmFBxlMpRQuxEH4wu6SBKG7-KsF8FxXLXkykz6GnP3qKWGd7s8cZ9DwPtQhCoI4EJEBN_dsLDxKuygEFTId9P5sS0oa1Mg0U3W3ZJprDA3_NFX8paY3c5h4tSaK_cYLiGKJerRv8V5aBLtSYZLJMPX_DGD8W0GLY1eZA6mVcCgQ1plRNObGaC_3SgNv0_Q_NmMwTypNxWCuhtlmhb2XcoKGHaFLw81HTIUnbkpavlgKSevNrj3nNgf0OnuFwBrGV0O9S-V3IE_LrdFQWDscm2osfOJxCGhgxQWvM9bkrYgTggboJP1h48KKg3BvhWK8MWgFty4v3kiNu_skHxHckm1tikRKfGyxmjQpmxTh-kW9diETtr7cEAXeMxo-z5BuD3CLUP-NxyBMNtT-o=w640-h480-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/zqlRKIgBs2-JrenGloqcO6KHsBGfnMIm6GhorYBpJySSkLFVxN64-NVswIxZp0LC9jHNFEReM0dMAzcQpnEZaH8BAFhovTYOC8-g4_3I9b5u8IxC8665nUW2VFcw7Zq8p3WuyVC9o-CVz0_EC72OWvZUg0jiblrL__0PZXTogumDehc3LauWZucLSEQsIagrG64hrnAmjvP1B0-DvN6CktnPHPeaXV-QmEJo4WtZiYEsHd1OOZZMcAyI0d2TUM7yPEEJC6-qpC7acnSjewVrbEcgQ8IXJ1htOPsSed-43DIpzDd1hmF57KIi0tuDs4HKw_f37z_nJVSOwAgtko2xvwDqu5iO7159RdYqcEwDb1FjV2zV4ufslsmZ7uwghBBc-mJlhDO-_q9dTkuq_YppsHgtjp9kMFHEEVCmcFccbBXAiPJb9uCCoXaCUmpcgQsR--KolTCUdpJ9gfuryVYNJIvo7OEnJNcRXs4q4QfuX-b4pQG_6tAu1PgRFkRBrKjc3bgZ9orcV-ayD-Qju4PIxU5m44YS3uQiM3h5lSzsRvT2coYMPoKlN7lb45BWxon3qJogY9289zPMqqANTSm9haFb9hSY9_Tmc85SWxk=w459-h405-no)
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Been reading through this whole thread and it?s makes me cry because (1) I?m convinced I need to try Sport Pistol powder and (2) I can?t find ANY Sport Pistol anywhere :(
I have been able to find it at the Tanner Gun Show. The vendor's name is Dad's Wholesale out of Denver.
Unfortunately, I haven?t had a good experience with Dad?s (guy is grump as all get out) and Tanner?s been off the list shows for me since numbskull vendors keep having negligent discharges more often than a beginners pistol course.
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Been reading through this whole thread and it?s makes me cry because (1) I?m convinced I need to try Sport Pistol powder, and (2) I can?t find ANY Sport Pistol anywhere :(
It's brand new, and most dealers don't even know it exists. If you don't ask your local dealer, he'll simply keep ordering the old standards like Unique and Bullseye that he's always ordered. So just ask them to put a couple of lbs on their next order sheet.
Sales have really slowed in the last 12 months. Believe me, he'll order it !
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So you are making 130 PF, is that all it will do? I know this is a heavy bullet, but that is a light load range as well it seems?
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So you are making 130 PF, is that all it will do? I know this is a heavy bullet, but that is a light load range as well it seems?
No sir, and I prove that in the test and say it in Test Notes...
Max Velocity: 1075fps (calculated)
3.6gr 974 8
? Calculated Max Velocity seems to be low. Need more investigation.
It seems it can be loaded up to around 4.0gr
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Wobbly,
I am confused, did you mean to state in your notes that the calculated max LOAD velocity seems low? I'm assuming you interpolated the max velocity and max load from the data. In looking at their website data, it seems that the max load would be ~3.7 gr and the max velocity would be ~1000 fps. How did you arrive at the 1075 calculated max velocity?
I think your data aligns with the load data on the website pretty well. I think your calculcated max velocity is off.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?page=/reloaders/powderlist.aspx&type=1&powderid=42&cartridge=23
Cheers,
Toby
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- Alliant has no data for a 135gr anything, much less lead.
- In the first trial I calculated the Max Velocity for this bullet to be about 1075fps and worked from there with the W231. Indeed, Max Velocity seems to be in the 1050 to 1075fps range.
- In the second go round, I made another educated guess as to the Max Load using Sport Pistol that would reach ~1050 and that looked like 3.7gr. Since I try never to use Max Load, the test only went up to 3.6gr and assumed the result would be near 1030fps. It was not.
The velocity figures for 3.5 and 3.6gr show a velocity increment of ~20fps per 0.1gr. Therefore, 3.7gr would still be shy of 1000fps, and definitely not anywhere near 1050. It's the calculation of 3.7gr being the max that I'm saying was in error, as proved by the chrono numbers. So the true Max Load for Sport Pistol with a 135gr LRN is probably closer to 3.9gr. But only more testing will tell us.
Here's a rare photo that shows the antiquated equipment I use to make load calculations...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_Ixypsyy0DReYHWBnDDWB6Z5d59Alm3nPZNgX--o8gsRr0uU0fM8IGNZdh9p2E3uR2Is40r6pEnWMDl0HrkF8ZVQGdWIT6Tw0dnyVcbYNS3QuXG0XzsdgTAQBlkr-Zqjtk9dYtfBZIbXISrtN0ucHQtT4yzKI4ZcBIHbhHtKUPZomVlKZQUl3Qvu5tptefMqC9KaB5jvkaNXJNddnpCr_3TqAQ4omhu1hkTzV24Hm_nG6ZSdYiIBpOOCMt1OFJgefyAsWo5B0y89POyZrocth64WoEX8ZJHvkNDqySXkeyHheMNHGsJLdNEnnmlfJsWoTw0XwqURgCtHLVQX2888y_Mp3nue03p8N0uwUsxkeZC-G8CrBwso-bAEDb0mttE3sRvp-EePYpHtaiBuMDfHk3Zj9lBWg7wEx9SJG0bLp4DdhzgcGc9CF2gnLgaaPad1pPnlL3syj2Y22CNRmisP-F6J2cVn2GQWtSHBE8WtXnaekHIyTkFQtlV4fqoY597T7plYPQ83DjxLcmcDxSvzKXwfDUn6fgsPx9Tmc4o7yGRGcGxVlv1q2FyZXvYUz8np6NKGsyVwvd9aC_BfAk0uiZcC4JoHXb1ATXEjKdBNvFkvHrLufebn-3XdE-cQpCQegK96Jr6p4OhDBwbmqCKpnftBRvesQoj5=w490-h326-no)
Does that answer your questions ?
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O0 ;D. Hahaha that picture pretty much captures my idea of Wobbly, Idescribe, and the other reloading forum crew members.
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Is that factory green RCBS equipment or a cheap knockoff? ;)
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? Alliant has no data for a 135gr anything, much less lead.
They do have load data for coated lead in 124 and 145 from Acme. In addition, it is in a reasonable OAL length regime similar to most 9x19 CZ chambers.
(https://i.imgur.com/515gZDtl.jpg)
I was interpolating between the 124 and 145gr ACME NLG LRN.
Oh, and I'm pretty sure I don't want to look behind the Wobbly curtain!! :)
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Toby
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The velocity figures for 3.5 and 3.6gr show a velocity increment of ~20fps per 0.1gr. Therefore, 3.7gr would still be shy of 1000fps, and definitely not anywhere near 1050. It's the calculation of 3.7gr being the max that I'm saying was in error, as proved by the chrono numbers. So the true Max Load for Sport Pistol with a 135gr LRN is probably closer to 3.9gr. But only more testing will tell us.
Does that answer your questions ?
I guess that means you are not going to see how it does at a bit of a +P or NATO pressures?
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I guess that means you are not going to see how it does at a bit of a +P or NATO pressures?
I have to leave something for you to do. ;D
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I have some data for the group to digest. I am switching over to SNS Cast Bullets to try and save some mollah. I tested their NEW 125gr Round Nose. This time I made sure my OAL for all rounds tested was a narrower range than when I first started testing with the PD 124 JHP. My results were higher than Alliant's data for the ACME Coated 124gr even though my OAL was slightly longer. Maybe it could have to do with the longer P-09 barrel, just a guess.
All 9mm Luger
Details for testing:
Bullet: SNS NEW 125 grain Round Nose
Pistol: P-09
Brass: mixed range
Primers: Federal Small Pistol
Powder: Alliant Sport Pistol
OAL: 1.114 - 1.115
Chrono: Caldwell
Distance from Chrono 11ft
Conditions: 45 degrees and over cast
Max Speed: 1066fps
3.5 Grains Sport Pistol
AVG: 1020
StdDev: 12.00
Min: 992
Max: 1033
Spread: 41
3.6 Grains Sport Pistol
AVG: 1032
StdDev: 12.41
Min: 1006
Max: 1052
Spread: 43
3.7 Grains Sport Pistol (Max Load)
AVG: 1063
StdDev: 11.21
Min: 1044
Max: 1080
Spread: 36
3.8 Grains Sport Pistol (Above Max Load)
AVG: 1087
StdDev: 9.02
Min: 1076
Max: 1103
Spread: 27
[Mods added additional RED notes]
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As a side note, I went shooting yesterday, not as a powder research activity, but as an enjoyment, accuracy and handgun/ammo compatibility.
Using my CZ 75 SP-01, with a 13lb (Green) recoil spring and OEM main.
Originally, I was looking to reload my 124gr Xtreme RN at 4.1gr with 1.12 OAL, but my brand new Lee Loadmaster Auto Disk wouldn't go to that exact weight, so I settled for 4.2gr, which the Loadmaster kept loading with an amazing consistency.
Anyway, my shooting with the 4.2gr was absolutely beautiful.
At 7 yards, groups were accurate and controlled pairs were very tight. Which makes me believe I have achieved a very good combination between the Alliant SP powder and my CZ.
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I have some data for the group to digest. I am switching over to SNS Cast Bullets to try and save some mollah. I tested their NEW 125gr Round Nose. This time I made sure my OAL for all rounds tested was a narrower range than when I first started testing with the PD 124 JHP. My results were higher than Alliant's data for the ACME Coated 124gr even though my OAL was slightly longer. Maybe it could have to do with the longer P-09 barrel, just a guess.
Thank you for taking the time to do the testing and reporting!
Saying all that, I highly doubt your life was in any huge danger, simply becasue 9mm allows +P chamber pressures and the max velocity will vary slightly between bullets. I say all this for your edification, so that your future load testing can proceed in greater safety and with more understanding.
Wobbly speaks wisdom. Side note, Alliant publishes +P load data for Sport Pistol as well.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?page=/reloaders/powderlist.aspx&type=1&powderid=42&cartridge=189
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I like this one. That's some serious pressure build up in that case.
(Direct from Alliant reloading data)
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?type=1&powderid=42&cartridge=189
9mm Luger +P 124 gr Acme RN-NLG coated Fed 1.05 4 Fed 100 Sport Pistol 4.2 1,111
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There's an easier way to get them all on a single page. Go to the product page and select a powder to research. Then from that page there is a link to all load data for that powder.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?type=1&powderid=42&cartridge=23
Cheers,
Toby
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
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I see. You were trying to show us Alliant's load data.
This thread is about testing Sport Pistol specifically, and more precisely than simply by bullet weight. You'll find all sorts of threads in this subforum doing extensive testing with various powders and bullets.
The very first post in this thread actually listed all of Alliant's data for Sport Pistol in 9mm, though I see Alliant has added a couple more bullets since that post last year.
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When I decided to try Sport Pistol powder a few month ago, I went all out and bought an 8lb canister.
As of now, all my reloads using other powders have been long gone, so all I am shooting now is SP.
I might be wrong, but the more I shoot that powder, the more it seams like shooting Titegroup.
Powder weight wise, recoil wise and maybe even dirtiness wise.
What are your thoughts about it?
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I bought an 8lb jug as well
I've been reloading for almost a year and tried 5 or 6 powders, but this is my favorite. Meters well, and it's been the most accurate and consistent in all of my 9mm loads.
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I've been running Blue 147g RN (actual weight 149.9-150.1 for most) over Sport Pistol for quite awhile now in my SP01. For what it's worth I've been using 3.2g-3.3g (my Dillon dispenser sometimes throws .1 high) of Sport Pistol with an OAL of 1.140" using the Blue 147g RN. Mixed brass and Winchester small primers with a taper crimp of .002" (actual measurement is .378"). I get excellent accuracy with this load and it feels nice. It's my current IDPA and USPSA load and has a PF of 133ish in my gun. I know it's not the brands you specified, nor is it a FP, but I hope this helps some.
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I bought some Sport Pistol to try in my .38 Spl that I shoot in ICORE. Hoping with the SNS 160 gr bullets the gun will stay a little cleaner and my reloads will be faster with clean cylinders, but we will have to see about that.
Today I decided to test some RMR 124 JHP with the powder. I shot two 10 shot groups over the chrony. 10' and 85 degrees.
4.0 grns Alliant Sport Pistol, RMR 124 JHP, 1.06 OAL . Alliant lists 4.4 as max!
Fed and functioned perfectly in CZ P-07 and Glock 19.
Short fat RMR JHP made me lower my normal JHP OAL but they functioned good and I am happy.
CZ P-07 Average was 1055 for a PF of 130
SD was 10 and ES was 24.
Seemed to be accurate and recoil was mild. I am out of coated 9mm at the moment but I am anxious to see if the SP does cut down on the smoke. Coated bullets smoke way less than lead but early and late in the day or at a night shoot the smoke can be a distraction.
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TEST 1
Caliber: 9x19 Luger
Bullets: Blue Bullets 125gr TC
Brass: Mixed
Powder: Alliant Sport Pistol
Max Velocity: xxxfps
Primer: S&B
OAL: 1.110"
Pistol: Accu-Shadow
Qty: 10 rounds each, slow fired
Weather: 81F indoor range
Chrono: ProChrono
Load Avg Vel SD
3.5gr 971 12
3.6gr 1002 10
3.8gr 1043 9
4.0gr 1067 8
TEST 2
Caliber: 9x19 Luger
Bullets: Blue Bullets 125gr TC
Brass: Mixed
Powder: Alliant E3
Max Velocity: xxxxfps
Primer: S&B
OAL: 1.120"
Pistol: Accu-Shadow
Qty: 10 rounds each, slow fired
Weather: 81F indor range
Chrono: ProChrono
Load Avg Vel SD
3.6gr 1042 15
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Rather than starting a new thread, is the consensus still the same on Alliant Sport Pistol? I am almost out of N320 and given the volume that I shoot and the shortage of 4lb jugs of N320, I am open to trying out ASP, assuming it's as good as previously praised.
I reload for a 2011 .40S&W and 9mm for my CZs.
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Rather than starting a new thread, is the consensus still the same on Alliant Sport Pistol? I am almost out of N320 and given the volume that I shoot and the shortage of 4lb jugs of N320, I am open to trying out ASP, assuming it's as good as previously praised.
I reload for a 2011 .40S&W and 9mm for my CZs.
For me, yes. So much so that I bought 16 more pounds during the Black Friday sale ;D.
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I ended up liking Sport Pistol very much. That's all I have been shooting since my original test, a year and a half ago, and 14000 rounds later.
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I'm still using it as well for my 9mm pistols and carbine, no plans to change.
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George,
Where did you purchase it?
Right now, Brownells only have the 1# bottles available. However, they also have the 1 cent hazmat if you buy anything over $150. Then use discount code NCS to get $15 off plus free shipping.
If you buy 8 1# jugs, you should be paying $148.93 after using the discount code above.
Hope this helps.
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I appreciate the responses.
I'm going to give this powder a try, based on the feedback. I sent out my Shadow 2's slide to Primary Arms for weight reduction and Trijicon SRO mounting, so it'll be a while til I can actually do load testing for this new setup.
Thanks.
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Right now, Brownells only have the 1# bottles available. However, they also have the 1 cent hazmat if you buy anything over $150. Then use discount code NCS to get $15 off plus free shipping.
If you buy 8 1# jugs, you should be paying $148.93 after using the discount code above.
Hope this helps.
Yep it does, thanks! I was looking for 8lb jugs but with the $15 off, free hazmat, and shipping it was a good deal! Just placed an order.
Cheers,
Toby
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Based on information from Shooting Times and my own testing, I don't think Sport Pistol is going to pay any dividends in 38 Super. I have asked for information from Alliant, but have not received any reply. Their official web page shows only BE-86 for 38Super, and now I see why.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/alliant-sport-pistol-powder/99181
Equipment
Caliber: 38Super
Bullets: RMR 124gr JHP
Brass: Mixed
Powder: Alliant Sport Pistol
Max Velocity: 1012fps shown in non-Alliant data
Primer: Federal #100
OAL: 1.200"
Pistol: 5" 1911
Qty: 10 rounds each, slow fired
Weather: 70F and clear
Chrono: ProChrono DLX
Load Avg Vel SD
4.1gr 954 19
4.2 1004 21
4.3 1031 16
4.4 1040 07
4.5 Listed as Max Load
Notes
- Should be noted I had a lot of trouble with afternoon light. Errant shot data was deleted, so I believe these numbers to be realistic, even if they aren't "spot on".
- I do believe the Max Load to be at or below 4.5gr. Velocities were definitely leveling off.
- Accuracy and cleanliness was good
- Velocities were disappointing and barely on par with 9mm
- I cannot recommend this powder for 38Super.
;)
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This will be my gamer load for ACME 120 LFP coated
Sport Pistol 3.8 gr
OAL 1.04
1050 fps
ES 7
SD 3
Federal range pickup brass
Winchester primers
Shot from my P09
this load was stupid consistant over 5 rounds.
4 rounds touching and 1 1" away.
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This will be my gamer load for ACME 120 LFP coated
Sport Pistol 3.8 gr
OAL 1.04
1050 fps
ES 7
SD 3
Federal range pickup brass
Winchester primers
Shot from my P09
this load was stupid consistant over 5 rounds.
4 rounds touching and 1 1" away.
Not bad - 4 are touching when shot from 1" away! O0
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Real trick was fitting the chrony in there.
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WARNING !
Based on my 38 Special testing today, it looks like Sport Pistol powder is position sensitive with loads less than 4.0/4.1gr when using using bullets seated beyond the case mouth. (This may not apply to DEWC bullets with their lower case volume.) If your Starting Loads take you into that load area, be cognizant of this and alert for Squibs.
If you must test in this range, then point the gun at the sky before each shot and possibly use a Magnum Primer.
;)
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Alliant's load data for Sport Pistol shows 124 gr ACME RN-NLG coated with an OAL of 1.050 and max charge of 3.9 grains, but I'm pretty sure this is based on the old ACME bullet profile and I have the newer profile bullet which I want to load at 1.100.
Does anyone have data with ACME's newer 124 grain bullet with Sport Pistol? I've done many searches and surprisingly couldn't find much specifically for 124gr coated and sport pistol (maybe because Alliant already provides it).
All else being the same in Alliant's testing, would the increase of OAL from 1.050 to 1.100 increase the max charge to roughly 4.0? 4.1? 4.2?
Alliant shows 1.050 OAL with max charge of 3.9 resulting in 1066 fps, which is 132 PF. I'm afraid that loading at 1.100 will reduce the PF to under 130 and I want to be around 132.
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Alliant's load data for Sport Pistol shows 124 gr ACME RN-NLG coated with an OAL of 1.050 and max charge of 3.9 grains, but I'm pretty sure this is based on the old ACME bullet profile and I have the newer profile bullet which I want to load at 1.100.
Does anyone have data with ACME's newer 124 grain bullet with Sport Pistol? I've done many searches and surprisingly couldn't find much specifically for 124gr coated and sport pistol (maybe because Alliant already provides it).
All else being the same in Alliant's testing, would the increase of OAL from 1.050 to 1.100 increase the max charge to roughly 4.0? 4.1? 4.2?
Alliant shows 1.050 OAL with max charge of 3.9 resulting in 1066 fps, which is 132 PF. I'm afraid that loading at 1.100 will reduce the PF to under 130 and I want to be around 132.
These are the two best loads I got when I did my load development with Acme 124 Gr RN and sport Pistol for my Shadow 2.
3.9 Gr sport pistol @ 1.086-1.089”OAL
- 1044
- 1042
- 1040
- 1054
- 1052
- 1045
- 1054 HIGH
- 1040 LO
- 1046 AVE
- 14. ES
- 5. SD
- 129.70 PF
4.0 Gr sport pistol @ 1.110-1.112” OAL
- 1068
- 1054
- 1057
- 1049
- 1051
- 1054
- 1057
- 1068 HIGH
- 1049 LO
- 1055 AVE
- 19 ES
- 6. SD
- 130.82 PF
4.1 Gr @ 1.110-1.112” OAL
- 1072
- 1067
- 1073
- 1057
- 1075
- 1064
- 1075 HI
- 1057 LO
- 1068 AVE
- 18 ES
- 6 SD
- 132.43 PF
I used the 4.1 Gr load when I shot production about six months until I started Shooting pcc, CO and open Major.
I like Acme because it’s cheap, accurate and also comes with a nice wooden box. I had since moved away from coated bullets (Acme, Blue and BBI) and now using PD JHP and RMR reloading Matchwinners. I use the JHP for my MPX and Czechmate while the RMR MW are for my X5, TSO and P226.
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So I got out and shot my first 9mm Sport Pistol load development. I've burned about 12lbs of Sport Pistol in 40. I actually haven't shot 9mm at all for some time. My local club is trying to get a Steel Challenge match going so I am going to bring out the SP-01 Tactical and ring some steel!
Equipment:
Caliber: 9mm
Bullets: Black and Blue 125gr Hitek Coated RN - Length = 0.591
Brass: Winchester
Powder: Alliant Sport Pistol (3.5 gr to 3.9 gr)
Max Velocity: 1066 fps
Primer: Winchester Small Pistol
OAL: 1.075 inch
Seating Depth: 0.256
Pistol: SP-01 Tactical
Qty: 10 rounds each, slow fired two groups of 5
Distance: 10 yd
Weather: 60F and windy, 5 PM light
Chrono: Caldwell G1
Load (gr) Avg Vel (fps) ST Dev (fps) Range (fps) Spread (in)
3.5 996 11.8 28.5 1.6
3.6 1018 10.1 24.5 1.4
3.7 1035 6.3 16.0 1.9
3.8 1054 6.3 15.0 1.3
3.9 1072 6.4 16.5 1.8 Max Load
Notes
• I had numerous strings where the 1st shot fired was low then the rest were touching or close to it. I'm not sure if it was me but I haven't had this happen before. I was really focusing on the trigger pull and trying to get accurate shots.
• This powder burned clean.
• I am going to load up at 3.8 gr for USPSA minor, the low ST Dev and accuracy was good at this charge.
• I didn't see any signs of pressure with any of these loads.
Cheers,
Toby
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Great report. Thanks for filling in the 9mm with Lead gap.
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As of the end of 2020, Sport Pistol has been showing up in Powder Burn Rate Charts.
https://loaddata.com/Article/BurnRateCharts/Powder-Burn-Rate-Chart-NEW/159
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I have two new bullets that I can move to next. Made it out today and shot some load development.
Equipment
Caliber: 40 S&W
Bullets: American Reloading 180 RNFP FMJ
Brass: Blazer
Powder: Alliant Sport Pistol
Max Velocity: ~970 fps averaged from Alliant data
Primer: WSP
OAL: 1.130"
Pistol: TSO
Qty: 10 rounds each, slow fired 5x group in each TSO
Weather: 36F and clear
Chrono: Caldwell G1
Load Avg Vel SD
4.1gr 868 18
4.3gr 903 21
4.5gr 928 12
4.7gr 956 16
Notes
- Didn't really focus on accuracy but they all shot well enough.
- My USPSA load with be 4.7 gr as it had the best group and decent velocity spread.
- The data doesn't all align, max load ranges from 4.6 - 5 gr
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Bullet #2
Equipment
Caliber: 40 S&W
Bullets: Precision Bullets 170 RNFP Coated
Brass: Blazer
Powder: Alliant Sport Pistol
Max Velocity: ~1025fps Interpolated from Alliant data
Primer: WSP
OAL: 1.130"
Pistol: TSO
Qty: 10 rounds each, slow fired 5x group in each TSO
Weather: 36F and clear
Chrono: Caldwell G1
Load Avg Vel SD
4.5gr 1019 6.7
4.7gr 1052 6.1 Max Load !
4.9gr 1078 8.0 Over Max Load !
Notes
- I started a little too hot with this development. I was using my historical data along with Alliant data.
- Precision Bullets coating must be slick, I was 1/2 grain lower to make PF than my previous 165 FMJ bullet.
- I will probably load these at 4.6 for my USPSA load, more confirmation work needed
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Great thread. I just picked up some SP to try in my S2. In looking through this thread, it looks like most have settled on loads ranging from 3.8-4.1 on 125/125 gn bullets.
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Great thread. I just picked up some SP to try in my S2. In looking through this thread, it looks like most have settled on loads ranging from 3.8-4.1 on 124/125gn bullets.
Understand that a lot of those people are loading Sport Pistol for lightly sprung competition pistols. You probably have a good idea what minimum velocity your particular gun requires. Use one of the test ladders that matches your bullet, then the reported velocities will be fairly well duplicated in your gun.
;)
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Made it out today and did a work up on a new bullet with my Accushadow 2. This gun is very accurate and these all shot very well. These load long compared to other bullets I've used recently. My push test results averaged a max OAL of 1.142 in the Accu 2 and 1.147 in my SP-01 Tactical!
Equipment
Caliber: 9mm
Bullets: Gallant 125 gr RN Hi-Tek Coated
Brass: Mixed
Powder: Alliant Sport Pistol
Max Velocity: ~1100 fps averaged from Alliant data (125gn Lead RN)
Primer: WSP
OAL: 1.120 inch
Pistol: CZ Accushadow 2 with Trijicon SRO
Qty: 10 rounds each, two 5x slow fired groups
Distance: 10yds
Weather: 40F and clear
Chrono: Caldwell G1
Load Avg Vel SD
3.7gr 1019 10.0
3.8gr 1041 8.9
3.9gr 1057 13.8
4.0gr 1083 12.4
4.1gr 1101 9.8 Max Load!
Notes
- Bullets are ~126 grains on average
- Max Spread over all load development was 0.9 inches
- Best Group was 0.5 inches
- I ran out of light and the final 4 shots didn't get picked up by the chrono (4.1 gr load, so it is only an average of 6 shots)
- I will load at 3.8 grain for my USPSA minor PF load
Cheers,
Toby
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Made it out today and did a work up on a new bullet with my Accushadow 2.
Equipment
Caliber: 9mm
Bullets: Black Bullet International 125gr Truncated Cone Hi-Tek Coated
Brass: Mixed
Powder: Alliant Sport Pistol
Max Velocity: ~1100 fps averaged from Alliant data (125gn Lead RN)
Primer: Servicios y Adventuras Small Pistol
OAL: 1.095 inch
Pistol: CZ Accushadow 2 with Trijicon SRO
Qty: 10 rounds each, two 5x slow fired groups
Distance: 10yds
Weather: 30F, winds 10-15, clear
Chrono: Caldwell G1
Load Avg Vel SD
3.7gr 1073 9.4
3.76gr 1078 9.6
3.8gr 1088 14.2
3.86gr 1096 8.3
3.9gr 1117 9.7 Max Load!
Notes
- Bullets are ~125 grains on average
- These started out way hotter than expected. I may have to drop down in charge to be closer to 130 pf. 3.6gr should get me there.
- Best Group was 0.6 inches
Cheers,
Toby
[/quote]
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Made it out today and shot the 3.6 grain Sport Pistol Load.
Equipment
Caliber: 9mm
Bullets: Black Bullet International 125gr Truncated Cone Hi-Tek Coated
Brass: Mixed
Powder: Alliant Sport Pistol
Max Velocity: ~1100 fps averaged from Alliant data (125gn Lead RN)
Primer: Servicios y Adventuras Small Pistol
OAL: 1.095 inch
Pistol: CZ Accushadow 2 with Trijicon SRO
Qty: 5 rounds
Distance: 20yds
Weather: 45F, winds 10-15, clear
Chrono: Caldwell G1
Load Avg Vel SD
3.6gr 1042 6.9
Notes
- I shot a freestyle (standing two hand hold grip with no support) 1.5 inch 5 shot group with these at 20yds.
- Power Factor was exactly as expected at 130.2
Cheers,
Toby