The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: TdC on December 20, 2017, 06:31:54 AM
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Hello everyone,
as I mentioned earlier in another topic, my press arrived today. But I have some questions to ask before I even start to unpack.
I apologize for my (maybe weird) English, typing errors or not understanding everything immediately but English isn't my mothertongue.
First
I shoot a SP01 shadow 9MM ipsc minor PF
bullets: LOS 147 grain RN copperplated (http://losmanufacturing.com/components/copper-plated-bullets/)
powder I could get is Vihtavuori 3N37
(bullets and powder were advised by clubmembers/friends who reload several years)
If I omitted anything please ask.
Measurements I took
bullet length 16.70 mm - .657 inch
ogive (?) is approximately 9mm - .354 inch / straight part 7.7mm .303 inch
push test (4 cases - 3 bullets): averaged 29.7mm - 1.169 inch
case average 18.95mm - .745inch
Is it possible I get such al long COAL?
If I'm correct this max COAL is viable for all case brands with this type of bullet?
LOS website states
145 gr 9mm RN
OAL 29 mm
Vihtavuori N340
3,8 grain for 915 fps out of a127mm barrel: PF = 133
VV reloading
147 gr 9mm RN rainier
OAL 29mm - 1.142 inch
Vihtavuori N340
3.8gr 892 fps 4inch barrel
and 3N37 4,5 grain for 937 fps
Is it safe to say that - because the N340 loads are identical - I can use the VV data for 3N37 for the LOS bullet?
Is it advised to start longer (say 1.15) or can I start at minimal COAL?
If I start longer, is there a problem with the noted starting load because the pressure would be lower and it clearly states not to underload any cartridges.
Thanks in advance
Toby
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As you pushed tested the OAL for your pistol, I am assuming you pushed and were able to spin the bullet as this ensures you aren't in the land and grooves, I would put that as the length I would load to.
As for starting powder charge, the Vihtavuori website shows a starting load at 4.5 for a shorter OAL so that is where I would start. I would chrono the load to see where I was and adjust from there. If you are hitting 937 fps with a 147 grain bullet, as advertised by the load data, you are at 137 PF. I would be happy there.
Go slow with your reloading, be methodical and have fun.
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
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Welcome!
You will be fine using the starting load for the 3n37 with the LOS bullet at the published OAL of 29mm. The small difference in charge at 1.15 would be inconsequential, and would actually only be below minimum at the starting load. Just like the data for the two bullets with a weight difference of 2 gr is identical.
I don't think 3n37 would be my choice for IPSC minor, however.
Good luck!
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Thanks for the replies :)
When faced with doing it al myself I'm suddenly much more insecure :-[
Sorry forgot to add the following: push test was the round pushed in the barrel and measured as I let it drop out. This value is without subtracting for spinning.
So it would be 1.169 - 0.015 = 1.154 OAL
Anyway I will load some dummy rounds for plunk and spin testing, feeding etc. before I even consider powder or primers
Some members in my club recommended the 3N37, and I was able to buy a 1-pound keg to try. If there are suggestions, I'll try those too, but I have to start somewhere.
Toby
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Welcome Aboard !
? To make things clearer, this is the line of information from the Vit online reloading database I would use....
9,5g 147gr RN Rainier 29,0mm 1.142in 3N37 0,29g 4.5gr 286m/s 937f/s
NOTES
? Vit gives the "Starting Load" and you work upward, whereas most USA powder companies show the "Max Load" and you work downward
? The Rainier bullet is a copper-coated lead, and is most like your LOS brand of bullet
? If your bullet can load at 29,0mm then with its length of 67,7mm you'll have an insertion (seating) depth of less than 7,0mm which is perfect !!
? If your "Push Test (http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=34225.0)" results gave you a Max OAL of 29,31mm then you are always good to use the shorter 29,0mm.
? According to Vit's own accounting, 3N37 is slower than N340. You've got to realize that the tested powders and reported data are for "normal" firearm loading, that is to say "self defense" and "hunting". Because you are only punching holes in paper, several concerns disappear. Therefore, a more optimal competition powder might be N330. However, this is not to say that you cannot use the 3N37 with good success.
? Access to a chronograph always helps in load development, however it is not mandatory since you have the Vit reloading data listing a bullet and powder combination that's almost an exact duplicate. In reloading we always prefer to err toward safety. A chronograph will simply add a layer of insurance.
? Realize that the 147gr bullet is longer than normal. You are able to use it in the CZ chamber because of the RN. I see LOS also makes conical nose bullets. If you want to try those you will probably be forced to drop back to the 124gr bullet weight because a 147gr conical will need to seat deeper into the cartridge case and due to the design of the case's interior this isn't always possible.
? The best advice I can give any novice reloader is to acquire and keep a dedicated notebook. Allow the first 5 pages for setup notes. Then dedicate one or two pages for each individual bullet. As you try different powders with each bullet you'll be able to see performance differences and narrow your search for the best load with that particular bullet.
I think you are good to go. We have quite a few "Stickies" (permanent posts at the top of the forum) to help novice reloaders. You will undoubtedly have other questions about press and die setup, please don't hesitate to add them to this post. In this way all your questions and answers will be in one place, making it easier for you to review.
Regards
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push test (4 cases - 3 bullets): averaged 29.7mm - 1.169 inch
Is it possible I get such al long COAL?
Yes, it's very common with RN plated and jacketed bullets.
Is it advised to start longer (say 1.15) or can I start at minimal COAL?
1.14-1.15 is a good starting point.
As to what load data to use, you're looking at it wrong. You should simply use Vihtavuori's load data for the closest bullet to your own, which in this case is the 147gr Ranier. This is what Wobbly is telling you.
START LOAD = 0,29g (4.5gr) -- 286 m/s (937 f/s)
MAX LOAD = 0,32g (4.9gr) -- 307 m/s (1008 f/s)
As has been pointed out, the starting load for 3N37 with a 147gr bullet is already a PF of 137, which is higher than most people want for 9mm minor. It's actually exactly where I want to be with a 147gr bullet, but it's higher than what most want, and I wouldn't want to shoot with a minimum load. This is not a good powder choice for a 9mm minor load. You want a faster burning powder. In Vihtavuori, you would want N320 or N330.
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I shoot a SP01 shadow 9MM ipsc minor PF
Toby
Anyone know how a SP-01 Shadow is sprung ? My initial concern is cycling of the action with a Min Load, which of course can be overcome with springing. But then I'm coming at this from my experience with a plain-Jane SP-01 with 18# recoil springs.
;)
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Thanks again for all the quick replies!
I've read most stickies, and am reading trough the posts, but it is really much to comprehend at once.
My excuses for the confusion: I deducted that since both the LOS and Rainier have the same load for N340, are copperplated RN, I could use the 3N37 data for LOS. So my assumption was correct, but I've read over and over there is no assumption only measuring, so I thougt it was safer to ask.
I am now shooting 145 PF (factory ammo) so 137-138 seems adequate to me, but if a minimum load isn't that great, I'll go to a faster powder to achieve the same PF.
I am preparing my reloading desk: a notebook has a prominent place already.
Starting at 29mm with 4.5gr of 3N37 I'll work up a ladder and see what the results are. We have a chrony at the club I can use if asked politely.
Toby
PS Is there any advantage of a conical point over a round nose?
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If you want to stay with 147 for now you can load VV 330 or 340 at a 131 PF using less powder. As wobbly said a lighter bullet and faster powder allow you to load closer to 125 PF.
N330 3.5 893 PF 131 Max. 3.8 942
N340 3.8 892 PF 131 Max 4.1 960
3N37 4.5 937 PF 137 Max 4.9 1008
Part of the enjoyment for me is trying different bullets and loads, BUT wait until you have more experience and remember always err on the side of caution!
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Your plan to work "UP" sounds good.
Do that with your load ladder and find the load(s) that shoot fast and accurately for YOU and your CZ. Then you may want to fine tune those best loads to the one load that shoots the very best.
After that, THEN tune the spring to work best with "that load".
Let us know what you find.
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I've read most stickies, and am reading trough the posts, but it is really much to comprehend at once.
Toby -
This is what Americans call "drinking from a fire hose" !! ;D
This initial hill climb will be over by December 2019. O0
My excuses for the confusion: I deducted that since both the LOS and Rainier have the same load for N340, are copperplated RN, I could use the 3N37 data for LOS. So my assumption was correct, but I've read over and over there is no assumption only measuring, so I thought it was safer to ask.
The Rainier data is a Fact. The 3N37 data is a Fact. Fact: You can freely substitute bullets of equal weight and construction. So you are moving from fact to fact to construct new facts, just as you should be. Therefore, I see no "assumptions" in your thinking. And that's exactly how safe thinking should be done.
I am now shooting 145 PF (factory ammo) so 137-138 seems adequate to me, but if a minimum load isn't that great, I'll go to a faster powder to achieve the same PF.
PF125 is the minimum; you can always go higher. In fact you should be loading about PF130 to allow for variations that will always creep in. But if your best accuracy and split times are at PF145, then that's where you should be loading.
Starting at 29mm with 4.5gr of 3N37 I'll work up a ladder and see what the results are. We have a chrony at the club I can use if asked politely.
I'd do increments of 0.1gr since you don't want to go too high. By that I mean that it's obvious that "full power" loads are not going to be fun, or comfortable, or provide your best times.... so we can rule out the upper end of the load range.
PS Is there any advantage of a conical point over a round nose?
They simply punch cleaner holes in the target paper to aid in scoring.
Now what about the press setup ?
All the best.
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So I finally got my press installed (a 2 year old can be a handful + the holidays)
I made 7 rounds without powder or primer at 29.2mm. All measurements between 29.15 and 29.20 (converted 1.148 - 1.150).
These rounds passed the plunk test with a nice "clunk" and spinned freely with slight pressure from my finger.
I could feed and extract the rounds from different magazines.
So I'm ready for loading the first rounds. I did however notice a very minimal case bulge. Seating depth calculated was 6.45mm (.254 inch)
Crimp was (if I'm correct because I'm no longer at my reloading desk) .375 inch.
Could this bulge be a problem?
greetings
Toby
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A remark regarding the PF: I would like to keep it minor for wear on the gun but be able to use it for personal defense.
The regulations are very strict here and I would like to be able to use the same ammo for personal defense (but hopefully never), thus at least with some power behind the round.
Some of the rules regarding gun use (why I'm talking personal defense and ball ammo)
- no expanding ammo allowed
- gun must be kept in safe, with trigger lock and ammo stored separately (and not in a mag) unless you can prove a gun could be a lifesaver.
Anyhow, if I find time I'll load my ladder tomorrow and hopefully I can go testing on Thursday. I will pick the most accurate round that doesn't obliterate my wrists.
Happy New Year!
Toby
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Have you modified your ideas on your load ? You started wanting "minor PF", now you want to shoot defensive loads. When we say "minor" on this side of the pond, we are generally re-springing the gun so that we can reduce the load to nearly the bare minimum. A lot of us shoot a PF of 128 to 135 for "minor".
With stock springs you're going to have some trouble getting the load much lower than ~145. The 3N37 is going to do that range very well. Maybe even with the minimum load. It's fairly stout stuff.
I thought you were going to follow the load recipe of 29mm OAL. If you want to get closer you can send those 29.2 rounds back through the press without issue. Just another mis-communication.
Case bulge doesn't mean or indicate anything. Remove your barrel and drop the test rounds in. The rounds should drop all the way in and then all the way back out using only the weight of the round. That's the ONLY thing that matters !!
Fully appreciate the comment on the 2 year old. In about 4 years he'll be a fantastic "case feeder". Then they up and go off to college. Enjoy that time together!
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Hey,
sorry for the confusion I may have caused, but no I haven't changed. I just wanted to elaborate on the fact that although I'm looking for minor PF I'm not hung on the idea of "as close to minimal PF as possible". I just want an accurate load I can use for IPSC minor but nothing too close to untolerable recoil - it's still a sport. I used this exemple because you commented According to Vit's own accounting, 3N37 is slower than N340. You've got to realize that the tested powders and reported data are for "normal" firearm loading, that is to say "self defense" and "hunting". Because you are only punching holes in paper, several concerns disappear. Therefore, a more optimal competition powder might be N330. However, this is not to say that you cannot use the 3N37 with good success.
The OAL is my fault: in the first reply we talked about 1.15 inch (which is 29.2mm) afterwards we talked about 29mm. I was kind of spooked by the slight bulging and was wondering if it was necessary to seat the bullet deeper. But it isn't a problem and I will run them through the press again to get close to 29mm or 1.142inch. the rounds drop in, spin and drop out with their own weight.
Sometimes talking one to one doesn't lead to miscommunication (talking in fragments), but alas there is quite a pond between us :)
greetings Toby
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The 9mm round will usually have a slight bulge at the bullet base. I'd re-check your taper crimp. At .375 I'd bet you're damaging those plated bullets, and magnifying the bulge. Somewhere around .377-.378 would eliminate that.
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Thanks for the advice everyone.
With some adjustments I now seated to a depth of 29mm.
The crimp is 9.65mm. When I pulled all dummy rounds there is a minimal indentation, even with the crimp set at 9,65mm.
All rounds still plunk fine, spin freely and fall out of the barrel under their own weight.
Greetings
Toby
Ps and another thank you for putting up with my questions, my english/(mis)communication and my use of the metric system
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The crimp is 9.65mm. When I pulled all dummy rounds there is a minimal indentation, even with the crimp set at 9,65mm.
9.6 - 9.65 ;)
OAL 29mm is fine.
You're in good shape.
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Well, the big questions for me are...
? How is an SP-01 shadow sprung ? If it comes sprung fairly light from the factory (under 14lbs.), then your "defensive rounds" may not be able to be all that stout, and you may be able to lower your PF on target ammo to the 130 area I was talking about. On the other hand, they may be sprung like a stock SP-01 in the area of 18-20lbs and able to shoot stout defensive loads.
? Do your rounds slip into and back out of your barrel ? It's your barrel you need to make happy.
? How many brands of brass are you reloading ?
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@IDescribe
Well that's part of my problem with converting units: I started with 9,55mm and went to 9,65mm. Since adjusting the crimp die the indentation is almost completely gone.
@Wobbly
I don't know the spring weight, but 145PF throws cases 3m away. I'm not experienced enough to know if that means something...
The rounds fall in with a nice clunk sound and they slip out of the barrel when I turn it upside down.
I have two brands but sorted them, so I only use one brand at the moment.
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@IDescribe
Well that's part of my problem with converting units: I started with 9,55mm and went to 9,65mm. Since adjusting the crimp die the indentation is almost completely gone.
9.55 is definitely too narrow for plated bullets.
For jacketed bullets, I go 9.58. For plated, lead, or coated lead, I go 9.60-9.63, but up to 9.65 is fine. If you sort brass by headstamp, you can measure the thickness of the casewalls and bullets, and get very precise, but that's not going to do you any good with mixed brass, and the real world value of doing that even with same headstamp is questionable.
Don't go over 9.65.
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Pretty much what I said. :P
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Indeed, that's why I adjusted this morning. Thank you!
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Did you notice any change in the appearance of the bulge?
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It is a lot less, but still minimally visible when reflecting the light.
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I shot 10 rounds of 147gr Berry plated RN (avg length 0.673in) today with 4.5gr of 3N37 loaded to 29.0mm. Avg velocity for the 10 out of my SP-01 was 849fps. They operated the gun with both 12 and 18 pound springs. The 12 pound recoil spring was throwing them about 3 meters, the 18 was less than 1m.
So expect lower speeds than the 937 the Vit book lists.
;)
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I have two brands [of brass] but sorted them, so I only use one brand at the moment.
So size a couple of pieces of brass. Then seat a bullet slowly and carefully into each piece of brass WITHOUT any belling. That's the perfect taper crimp diameter for that bullet and brand of brass.
Then, set your crimp die to deliver that exact diameter.
;)
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Hello,
sorry for the radio-silence but I can only go to the range on saturdays and my saturdays have been occupied by family visits and work.
I've shot the entire ladder without hiccups and no signs of overpressure on the cases.
Unfortunately I have not had the chance to shoot over a chrony or do accuracy testing yet.
I did shoot some IPSC training with an intermediate load of 4.7 grain and all 500 rounds performed perfectly.
I would like to test some more if I do get a hold of the chrony and I'm thinking about adding a faster powder to the test.
N330 impossible to find at the stores, so now I'm contemplating N320 or N340...
For the moment I'm using a 145gr plated RN. But I'm thinking of also adding a 124 gr. plated FP or RN...
What would be the better option powder wise? At my club I've heard of people struggling to get PF with 124gr and N320 without exceeding load manual data?
thanks in advance
Toby
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http://www.shootingtimes.com/files/2014/03/Title-Figure-Brad-Miller-9mm-Auto.jpg
In my opinion, use this as a model for proper dimensions for your reloads to avoid future problems.
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You should easily attain pf with a 124gr RN bullet at 4.1 gr of VV N-320 at 1.14.
Not over max, at all.
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N330 impossible to find at the stores, so now I'm contemplating N320 or N340...
N330 is becoming (slowly) available again BUT there is no one magic powder. Powder valley has some in 1# only, the 4# went FAST! Both N320 and N340 work well
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What would be the better option powder wise? At my club I've heard of people struggling to get PF with 124gr and N320 without exceeding load manual data?
Toby -
? It's as Painter said, and here's why.... Everything we do in reloading is to control chamber pressure.
The primary number in the load manual you want to adhere to and strictly follow is the bullet velocity. The velocity more closely tracks the chamber pressure, and chamber pressure is what determines Max Load.
If you don't have a chrono, then obviously the only reference left for you to follow is the powder weight. But that number is second place to velocity.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/4QOuTSr9zBf5gDVqLsA0-ZJbOKag5Seif0yoQs-TeeMBMLzjWtm1zp6KkxEA1_ePr9YR9Aw7Jm-LmCN7uYHTa7wyi2z38nTzFCn-o_rJxrJPJnKrFsDz-XxMVhBlsTBs8l1_GfZdy531juJhg3UlhscivJmoFLLbt9FeqX0oxrjY-NejByCFQZRzy0tpBgpwUC3r1UeiDOE27rE3ove6Jlqo4SuarLbkZAtbvmV_mb1gXOCeGeHmbtRqvCxdYSSVGKQ-Q3QYaxkiiktX_O5G5doABj_qXwpDg-xh2BLVkKZORI6DSEW2shud_oP-UDGDEkivw_NIzQ1ZHHUrGFhuxhQHMH0OI7N5Ngwb33zpysW3_wNFvgq7dN4Bb3HV5iZzb092mH_oPSQDhpcY-0nvA-hERmoynurQ1IGvb1sfA6bAoHSAd51DKOiCG5Z3XmKfcYOk_7k-zrmMEmvSV_H-eDguA0SXA9-HJRbBVhy5uhiOPqyG-PpLG52NIIdV3X1AT6R4rFLKof-FjqceKu5_iORrG_p8nrZP7sC7WRGwMhEtx15h7WMS1VvgsTetM992tCadgpc8-OUvFCSBEmx21wSx1yAyod_IgiFWbWo=w600-h419-no)
The reason for this is that Load Data is developed in test barrels that are 8 inches (203mm) or longer. See photo above. Longer barrels develop greater velocities for any given amount of powder. So in your short 4 inch pistol barrel you'll need to add more powder than given in the manual to achieve the same velocity. Exactly how much more only a chrono can tell you.
? So the order you want to test your ladders is to find the accuracy load first. Then you'll chrono that load to make sure that you are over PF125. If your best accuracy is at PF123, then obviously you'll need to bump that up to PF128-130.
Hope this helps !
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N330 is becoming (slowly) available again BUT there is no one magic powder. Powder valley has some in 1# only, the 4# went FAST! Both N320 and N340 work well.
Toby is in Belgium.
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Thank you all for the advice!
And for the theory behind pressure, velocity and powdercharge. (I still have so much to learn)
I'll be looking after accurate loads and then chrony them for PF.
Thank you for putting up with my questions which I am sure you've all answered numerous times
Toby
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We've had the questions before....
...but never from someone with the ability to send us some Trappist beer.
Hint, hint, hint. O0
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So I thought it is time for a little update since I got to chrono some rounds (10 shots each).
The first string are reloads from earlier this year. The second string are recent reloads. (I upped the charge a bit because I saw better accuracy)
Everything is mixed brass, S&B primers, N320, LOS 145gr plated 9mm, AOL 29mm
First string 3,55gr N320
average velocity 884.6fps PF 128
st dev 15
max spread 48fps
Second string 3.65gr N320
average velocity 904.2 PF 131
st dev 20
max spread 75fps
however I must have messed up one charge (took 10 random bullets out of my vault) because if I deleted 1 abnormal low velocity shot in the second string, I got:
av vel 910fps, PF 132
st dev 8
max spread 27fps
so I understand for plated rounds, these seem to be pretty consistent.
Greets
Toby
edit: if necessary I can give the full string of velocities
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Everything is mixed brass, S&B primers, N320, LOS 145gr plated 9mm, AOL 29mm
First string 3,55gr N320
average velocity 884.6fps PF 128
st dev 15
max spread 48fps
Second string 3.65gr N320
average velocity 904.2 PF 131
st dev 20
max spread 75fps
however I must have messed up one charge (took 10 random bullets out of my vault) because if I deleted 1 abnormal low velocity shot in the second string, I got:
av vel 910fps, PF 132
st dev 8
max spread 27fps
The VihtaVuori does not give numbers for using 147gr Ranier plated with N320.... which is one reason I suggested N330. As a new reloader, I'd go back to the 3N37 just to be safe. Or move to the 124gr bullet which does have numbers for N320.
Here's the problem with N320.... With 115gr Ranier the load "window" goes from 3.9 to 4.4gr, or a total window of 0.5gr. With 124gr Ranier the window goes from 3.8 to 4.1gr, or a total window of 0.3gr. In other words, as the bullet gets heavier, the window using the same powder gets smaller. So the load window with 145/147gr might be a total of 0.1 or 0.15gr !! Another way to state that is that your margins for error greatly diminish, and your risk greatly increases. And you've got no numbers from Vit to guide you, so chrono numbers mean exactly zero.
However, N320 with 124gr bullets works very well. As I explained earlier, becasue the data is collected in longer barrels, the loads can go slightly higher than those listed. Your friends that told you otherwise were only looking at the load manual, not the chrono reports.
The only other option you have is to call Vit and ask for data on N320 with 145 gr bullets. They may actually have it. You must get the velocities with the loads. Then you'll have data you can relate to your collected data.
Hope this helps. ;)
PS. I agree with dropping data points that are obviously errors.
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Thank you for the advice. Still drinking from the hose to get all knowledge in...
I have some loads for the 3n37 too, but didn't have them with me the day someone brought the chronograph.
The only reason I dared trying the N320 is because VV now has N320 with the 145gr H&n plated bullet listed at 968 fps max velocity on their site. It has a load window of 0.7gr... I hope I wasn't wrong to rely on that?
When my stash of 145gr plated is gone I'm probably going to go with 124 fmj as my local shop has recently started stocking them. N330 however is a needle in a haystack to find.
Thanks again for all the great advice in this thread and on this forum.
Toby
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I would have done the same with the N320 and the 147. I rarely load at max load, so I would likely start at the same starting load and stop a tenth, or so, below max.
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The only reason I dared trying the N320 is because VV now has N320 with the 145gr H&N plated bullet listed at 968 fps max velocity on their site. It has a load window of 0.7gr... I hope I wasn't wrong to rely on that ?
Toby -
No, sir. Faster powders and heavy bullets is a traditional IPSC load, but none of the VV booklets I have referenced that load. If the gun is operating properly, then I would not go any higher. If the gun is not operating, then I would order a 14# recoil spring. The load pretty much needs to stay where it is now.
When my stash of 145gr plated is gone I'm probably going to go with 124 fmj as my local shop has recently started stocking them. N330 however is a needle in a haystack to find.
I really think you'll like the 124gr bullet a lot better. You may still need the reduced power recoil spring, but it will be cheaper to shoot and your times will be better.
All the best !
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Wobbly and Painter,
thanks for the reply.
Indeed it is the only reference I found regarding 145gr plated and N320 so I decided to stay 20% below max (.15gr).
It is a year since I shoot IPSC standard division minor and my training times are getting better (only compared to myself, I still suck in comparison to others :-[ )
And I started with what club members advised.... however I feel my slide is sluggish compared to the occasional 124gr I shoot.
And while fmj isn't cheaper than plated, I did find better accuracy. So that makes deciding easy if the local shops stock it.
With the 3.65gr load everything feeds and ejects fine about to about 4 feet away (completely stock shadow)
Thanks
Toby
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Faster powders and heavy bullets is a traditional IPSC load, but none of the VV booklets I have referenced that load.
The VV reloading guides I have reference 145, and 147 gr bullets, all the way back to 2014. Granted, not that particular bullet.
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I thought I had up-to-date info. So I looked. My latest VV booklet is dated 2008 !!
Darn, I'm gettin' old ! :o
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Toby,
Have you looked at any of the Nobel-Vectan powders? I assume they are available in Belgium, but I am often wrong...
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Vhit has data for N320 with the XTReme 147gr RN, OAL 1.16
3.7gr Max Load -- 948 feet/sec
I also have my own load data for N320 with the XTReme 147 RN at 1.16:
3.5gr -- 895 feet/sec
3.6gr -- 910 feet/sec
3.7gr -- 924 feet/sec