The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => CZ Gunsmithing => Topic started by: Underwhere on May 30, 2018, 11:13:54 PM
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I bought a Manson throating reamer. Too many of my barrels need short OAL rounds.
So I fashioned up the longest round I think I could use with the widest ogive to use as the test round.
A few turns and my mid length round easily fits. But a few more turns and my longest one still doesn't.
I'm hesitant to continue reaming until this test round fits.
Can you throat a barrel too long? I haven't found much to say it affects accuracy.
- My longest dummy round is 1.15
- My midlength dummy round is 1.12 and works more often (but not always because of the ogive)
- Winchester White Box is 1.185
The bullet in question is a coated 115gr Bayou Bullet
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180531/fd0e8173422af497c7c44011bc760a01.jpg)
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Max OAL for 9mm is 1.169
When I reamed the throat on one of mine I used a 147 grn conical flat point. It was the deepest I would need to throat for in my reloading. I set it to 1.175 or so and used it as my round for checking the depth I wanted my throat. You can go further and use different rounds but that was what I went with for the bullets I run.
Since I have been shooting 115 gr I haven?t throated any more, but that little OG 75 Compact still shoots more accurately than me and eats everything.
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Max OAL for 9mm is 1.169
When I reamed the throat on one of mine I used a 147 grn conical flat point. It was the deepest I would need to throat for in my reloading. I set it to 1.175 or so and used it as my round for checking the depth I wanted my throat. You can go further and use different rounds but that was what I went with for the bullets I run.
Since I have been shooting 115 gr I haven?t throated any more, but that little OG 75 Compact still shoots more accurately than me and eats everything.
Thanks for the info.
Strange. My WWB is so long.
Also. Strange was the reamer worked fine on a pre-b and a Tristar barrel but when I tried it on a shadow 2 barrel it didn't cut at all. I wonder if it's coated or treated.
I also wonder if I dulled my reamer on it.
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Max OAL for 9mm is 1.169
When I reamed the throat on one of mine I used a 147 grn conical flat point. It was the deepest I would need to throat for in my reloading. I set it to 1.175 or so and used it as my round for checking the depth I wanted my throat. You can go further and use different rounds but that was what I went with for the bullets I run.
Since I have been shooting 115 gr I haven?t throated any more, but that little OG 75 Compact still shoots more accurately than me and eats everything.
Thanks for the info.
Strange. My WWB is so long.
Also. Strange was the reamer worked fine on a pre-b and a Tristar barrel but when I tried it on a shadow 2 barrel it didn't cut at all. I wonder if it's coated or treated.
I also wonder if I dulled my reamer on it.
Ahhh yeah.... the P-07 P-09 and S2 have nitride treated barrels. Your reamer will not cut those. You need a special reamer or just send it to a shop that has one. Real PITA... sorry
And I realized I didn?t really answer your question. You could go far enough that I would impact accuracy, so I?d recommend going just as deep as you need and nothing crazy.
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think I would stick with a conical bullet like the XTP for testing as the straight part is the most limiting factor and most round nose bullets with an ogive will load long enough from that point and if not, well find a better bullet because there are plenty enough around, O0
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Max OAL for 9mm is 1.169
When I reamed the throat on one of mine I used a 147 grn conical flat point. It was the deepest I would need to throat for in my reloading. I set it to 1.175 or so and used it as my round for checking the depth I wanted my throat. You can go further and use different rounds but that was what I went with for the bullets I run.
Since I have been shooting 115 gr I haven?t throated any more, but that little OG 75 Compact still shoots more accurately than me and eats everything.
Thanks for the info.
Strange. My WWB is so long.
Also. Strange was the reamer worked fine on a pre-b and a Tristar barrel but when I tried it on a shadow 2 barrel it didn't cut at all. I wonder if it's coated or treated.
I also wonder if I dulled my reamer on it.
Ahhh yeah.... the P-07 P-09 and S2 have nitride treated barrels. Your reamer will not cut those. You need a special reamer or just send it to a shop that has one. Real PITA... sorry
And I realized I didn?t really answer your question. You could go far enough that I would impact accuracy, so I?d recommend going just as deep as you need and nothing crazy.
Thanks for the info on the barrels. I wish I knew that before attempting the S2. Oh well.
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think I would stick with a conical bullet like the XTP for testing as the straight part is the most limiting factor and most round most bullets with an ogive will load long enough from that point and if not, well find a better bullet because there are plenty enough around, O0
Yea the Bayou has been problematic for me. I loaded 3k long before I realized it wouldn't chamber in some of my CZ's.
Lesson learned.
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think I would stick with a conical bullet like the XTP for testing as the straight part is the most limiting factor and most round most bullets with an ogive will load long enough from that point and if not, well find a better bullet because there are plenty enough around, O0
Yea the Bayou has been problematic for me. I loaded 3k long before I realized it wouldn't chamber in some of my CZ's.
Lesson learned.
Been down this road before. Couple years ago I had to disassemble about a thousand rounds that I loaded for my 3rd gen S&W's many years ago. Those guns are gone now and the rounds were too long for my CZ's.
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Other than the S2, P07 and P09 do you know of any other CZ's that have nitrided, chromed, melonited barrels to avoid. I think I need to send my reamer in for sharpening.
I had it for 4 hours before screwing it up :)
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Yep. I had to buy a new reamer.
The cost to ship and re-cut my reamer just wasn't worth it so I ordered a new one after talking to Manson Reamers today. They were very nice about it and didn't laugh too hard. :)
So nitrided and hard chromed barrels are a no-go with reamers.
FYI: Carbide crowning tools are ok to use on hard chrome. Not so much with nitride.
Here I think you can see the rounded edge of the reamer.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180531/450ddbe971c266323dcfe838384e0002.jpg)
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I think the P-10 C as well. Not totally sure though.
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I know this is a CZ forum but there are some times I just gotta love Glock. I've never had an issue with long rounds or strange ogives. My longest round drops into every single Glock barrel I could find.
They just aren't as fun nor as pretty. I guess there's a give and take.
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I know this is a CZ forum but there are some times I just gotta love Glock. I've never had an issue with long rounds or strange ogives. My longest round drops into every single Glock barrel I could find.
They just aren't as fun nor as pretty. I guess there's a give and take.
This is true. No pistol is perfect. The Glocks have tons of aftermarket barrels to increase accuracy. They get longer throats, but less accuracy.... Amongst other things. Not saying the longer throats cause less accuracy.
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I can see wanting to load one bullet profile for all of my 9's. However, it isn't that difficult to find a profile that works w/o extensive throating.
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Yep. I had to buy a new reamer.
The cost to ship and re-cut my reamer just wasn't worth it so I ordered a new one after talking to Manson Reamers today. They were very nice about it and didn't laugh too hard. :)
So nitrided and hard chromed barrels are a no-go with reamers.
FYI: Carbide crowning tools are ok to use on hard chrome. Not so much with nitride.
Here I think you can see the rounded edge of the reamer.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180531/450ddbe971c266323dcfe838384e0002.jpg)
Did you buy the same reamer or the special one for nitrided barrels?
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Yep. I had to buy a new reamer.
The cost to ship and re-cut my reamer just wasn't worth it so I ordered a new one after talking to Manson Reamers today. They were very nice about it and didn't laugh too hard. :)
So nitrided and hard chromed barrels are a no-go with reamers.
FYI: Carbide crowning tools are ok to use on hard chrome. Not so much with nitride.
Here I think you can see the rounded edge of the reamer.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180531/450ddbe971c266323dcfe838384e0002.jpg)
Did you buy the same reamer or the special one for nitrided barrels?
You ask really good questions. I didn't think they had one for nitrided barrels (and the didn't tell me about one)
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Not trying to be a smart alec, jmho. Unless I was shooting an open class 9mm major power factor load to run a comp,, I can't find a good reason to modify the chamber of a great pistol around the bullet.
Is that bullet significantly "better shooting or more accurate"" than ammo that fits the CZ competition pistol chambers?
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Not trying to be a smart alec, jmho. Unless I was shooting an open class 9mm major power factor load to run a comp,, I can't find a good reason to modify the chamber of a great pistol around the bullet.
Is that bullet significantly "better shooting or more accurate"" than ammo that fits the CZ competition pistol chambers?
Nope I just had a lot of it and it ran fine in my other guns. Didn't want to pull them all.
And then I figured that I wanted guns that could eat anything.
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I see where you're coming from, having purchased and used a reamer.
On the flip side there are lots of other bullets. An Example is a newer company a bunch of members are testing out called Gallant Bullets. Their coated bullets are designed with a shape to better accommodate CZ chambers. They give our forum a 10% off code, and if you buy bulk Eli will match bulk pricing (he matched Acme bulk pricing for me). That could save you having to ream your S2....
The caveat: I am cheap and have been running 115 gr bullets from Berry's. The ones I ordered from Gallant are also 115 gr so I haven't needed to consider reaming any more chambers. I know, 115's will provide a sharper recoil impulse, but after shooting 10mm a bunch I realized that 115 gr 9mm recoil in my SP-01 felt like a 22 compared to full house 10mm. That's the fair explanation of my situation in all of this.
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I see where you're coming from, having purchased and used a reamer.
On the flip side there are lots of other bullets. An Example is a newer company a bunch of members are testing out called Gallant Bullets. Their coated bullets are designed with a shape to better accommodate CZ chambers. They give our forum a 10% off code, and if you buy bulk Eli will match bulk pricing (he matched Acme bulk pricing for me). That could save you having to ream your S2....
The caveat: I am cheap and have been running 115 gr bullets from Berry's. The ones I ordered from Gallant are also 115 gr so I haven't needed to consider reaming any more chambers. I know, 115's will provide a sharper recoil impulse, but after shooting 10mm a bunch I realized that 115 gr 9mm recoil in my SP-01 felt like a 22 compared to full house 10mm. That's the fair explanation of my situation in all of this.
Makes sense.
I operate a bit differently. I don't like the idea of having to worry about ammo or the notion that I may have ammo laying around my house that potentially will not work with a specific gun. At some point I'll forget what gun needs what ammo and end up with problems.
While I can certainly find and buy ammo that would work with my S2 I have more guns than my S2. It shouldn't get special treatment. So I think I'll send the barrel out at some point.
On the flipside:
I also don't modify any of my guns to the point where I require light primers only. All of mine can ignite anything (maybe not Wolff but no one uses those). I can still manage a sub 2 pound trigger with my mods.
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Sure, that makes sense. May not be what I am doing now, but I won?t fault ya or anyone taking that approach.
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It's why we reload. No one can fault doing so to meet "your" shooting preferences.
My SD pistol is able to shoot anything 9mm meeting and maybe exceeding SAAMI standards, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
My fun-guns are tuned and loaded so I can mostly avoid embarassing myself in public...most of the time.
My pellet rifle "only" likes expensive heavier pellets, but the squirrel count is still climbing steadily. :)
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A 2lb SA trigger pull can be achieved with the OEM hammer spring. Springing it lightly enough that it requires match primers is done to lower the DA pull.
Keeping the ammo segregated is an additional concern, but one load doesn't work for all purposes. My SD/HD guns are loaded with premium SD ammo. I also have ammo loaded hot for SD practice, pistol match ammo with Fed primers, and carbine match ammo. The carbine for example shoots almost 200fps faster with a pistol load, which makes dot bounce unacceptable in a match setting. So for me, loading one round for all of my guns is impractical. I do try to stick to one profile and if possible, the same OAL.
I did grab carbine ammo by mistake for a pistol match once and had to return home to get the correct ammo. To remedy that in the future, I'm trying Gallant bullets since they're available in multiple colors. I might run into more oal issues if I was using heavier bullets, but Gallant 135's chamber in all my guns. I don't generally see a need for anything heavier than 124gr. So far I haven't had a reason to ream chambers. We all have different requirements though.
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A 2lb SA trigger pull can be achieved with the OEM hammer spring. Springing it lightly enough that it requires match primers is done to lower the DA pull.
Keeping the ammo segregated is an additional concern, but one load doesn't work for all purposes. My SD/HD guns are loaded with premium SD ammo. I also have ammo loaded hot for SD practice, pistol match ammo with Fed primers, and carbine match ammo. The carbine for example shoots almost 200fps faster with a pistol load, which makes dot bounce unacceptable in a match setting. So for me, loading one round for all of my guns is impractical. I do try to stick to one profile and if possible, the same OAL.
I did grab carbine ammo by mistake for a pistol match once and had to return home to get the correct ammo. To remedy that in the future, I'm trying Gallant bullets since they're available in multiple colors. I might run into more oal issues if I was using heavier bullets, but Gallant 135's chamber in all my guns. I don't generally see a need for anything heavier than 124gr. So far I haven't had a reason to ream chambers. We all have different requirements though.
My Shadow 2 runs a stock hammer spring but with polishing and other components is under 2 pounds. I was quite surprised with that.
As far as ammo is concerned. Even my competition loads work with all of my handguns so I actually can run the same ammo in all guns.
I guess I just don't push the limits.
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A 2lb SA trigger pull can be achieved with the OEM hammer spring. Springing it lightly enough that it requires match primers is done to lower the DA pull.
Keeping the ammo segregated is an additional concern, but one load doesn't work for all purposes. My SD/HD guns are loaded with premium SD ammo. I also have ammo loaded hot for SD practice, pistol match ammo with Fed primers, and carbine match ammo. The carbine for example shoots almost 200fps faster with a pistol load, which makes dot bounce unacceptable in a match setting. So for me, loading one round for all of my guns is impractical. I do try to stick to one profile and if possible, the same OAL.
I did grab carbine ammo by mistake for a pistol match once and had to return home to get the correct ammo. To remedy that in the future, I'm trying Gallant bullets since they're available in multiple colors. I might run into more oal issues if I was using heavier bullets, but Gallant 135's chamber in all my guns. I don't generally see a need for anything heavier than 124gr. So far I haven't had a reason to ream chambers. We all have different requirements though.
My Shadow 2 runs a stock hammer spring but with polishing and other components is under 2 pounds. I was quite surprised with that.
As far as ammo is concerned. Even my competition loads work with all of my handguns so I actually can run the same ammo in all guns.
I guess I just don't push the limits.
Right, but what is the DA pull? The hammer spring has almost zero effect on SA pull. I'm sure the DA in your S2 is nice, but a spring change would lower it. My DA pull is under 5lbs.
To be honest, I could train myself with a heavier DA pull and probably should. My match ammo will run in all my guns, but my DA/SA match guns won't run my other ammo 100% simply due to needing match primers. I bought a bunch of S&B primers on sale so I use them when I can. When they're gone, I'll likely switch to Winchester primers and spring accordingly.
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
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My S2 has been converted over to SA.
About the best I can do DA / SA is 5 pounds 2 ounces DA and 2 pounds 8 ounces SA. This is with reduced hammers and extended firing pins and they will still ignite any primer.
A 2lb SA trigger pull can be achieved with the OEM hammer spring. Springing it lightly enough that it requires match primers is done to lower the DA pull.
Keeping the ammo segregated is an additional concern, but one load doesn't work for all purposes. My SD/HD guns are loaded with premium SD ammo. I also have ammo loaded hot for SD practice, pistol match ammo with Fed primers, and carbine match ammo. The carbine for example shoots almost 200fps faster with a pistol load, which makes dot bounce unacceptable in a match setting. So for me, loading one round for all of my guns is impractical. I do try to stick to one profile and if possible, the same OAL.
I did grab carbine ammo by mistake for a pistol match once and had to return home to get the correct ammo. To remedy that in the future, I'm trying Gallant bullets since they're available in multiple colors. I might run into more oal issues if I was using heavier bullets, but Gallant 135's chamber in all my guns. I don't generally see a need for anything heavier than 124gr. So far I haven't had a reason to ream chambers. We all have different requirements though.
My Shadow 2 runs a stock hammer spring but with polishing and other components is under 2 pounds. I was quite surprised with that.
As far as ammo is concerned. Even my competition loads work with all of my handguns so I actually can run the same ammo in all guns.
I guess I just don't push the limits.
Right, but what is the DA pull? The hammer spring has almost zero effect on SA pull. I'm sure the DA in your S2 is nice, but a spring change would lower it. My DA pull is under 5lbs.
To be honest, I could train myself with a heavier DA pull and probably should. My match ammo will run in all my guns, but my DA/SA match guns won't run my other ammo 100% simply due to needing match primers. I bought a bunch of S&B primers on sale so I use them when I can. When they're gone, I'll likely switch to Winchester primers and spring accordingly.
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
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My S2 has been converted over to SA.
About the best I can do DA / SA is 5 pounds 2 ounces DA and 2 pounds 8 ounces SA. This is with reduced hammers and extended firing pins and they will still ignite any primer.
A 2lb SA trigger pull can be achieved with the OEM hammer spring. Springing it lightly enough that it requires match primers is done to lower the DA pull.
Keeping the ammo segregated is an additional concern, but one load doesn't work for all purposes. My SD/HD guns are loaded with premium SD ammo. I also have ammo loaded hot for SD practice, pistol match ammo with Fed primers, and carbine match ammo. The carbine for example shoots almost 200fps faster with a pistol load, which makes dot bounce unacceptable in a match setting. So for me, loading one round for all of my guns is impractical. I do try to stick to one profile and if possible, the same OAL.
I did grab carbine ammo by mistake for a pistol match once and had to return home to get the correct ammo. To remedy that in the future, I'm trying Gallant bullets since they're available in multiple colors. I might run into more oal issues if I was using heavier bullets, but Gallant 135's chamber in all my guns. I don't generally see a need for anything heavier than 124gr. So far I haven't had a reason to ream chambers. We all have different requirements though.
My Shadow 2 runs a stock hammer spring but with polishing and other components is under 2 pounds. I was quite surprised with that.
As far as ammo is concerned. Even my competition loads work with all of my handguns so I actually can run the same ammo in all guns.
I guess I just don't push the limits.
Right, but what is the DA pull? The hammer spring has almost zero effect on SA pull. I'm sure the DA in your S2 is nice, but a spring change would lower it. My DA pull is under 5lbs.
To be honest, I could train myself with a heavier DA pull and probably should. My match ammo will run in all my guns, but my DA/SA match guns won't run my other ammo 100% simply due to needing match primers. I bought a bunch of S&B primers on sale so I use them when I can. When they're gone, I'll likely switch to Winchester primers and spring accordingly.
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
By reduced hammers, do you mean you shorten the hooks?
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
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Sorry. Reduced hammer springs. I don't modify the race hammers from CGW
My S2 has been converted over to SA.
About the best I can do DA / SA is 5 pounds 2 ounces DA and 2 pounds 8 ounces SA. This is with reduced hammers and extended firing pins and they will still ignite any primer.
A 2lb SA trigger pull can be achieved with the OEM hammer spring. Springing it lightly enough that it requires match primers is done to lower the DA pull.
Keeping the ammo segregated is an additional concern, but one load doesn't work for all purposes. My SD/HD guns are loaded with premium SD ammo. I also have ammo loaded hot for SD practice, pistol match ammo with Fed primers, and carbine match ammo. The carbine for example shoots almost 200fps faster with a pistol load, which makes dot bounce unacceptable in a match setting. So for me, loading one round for all of my guns is impractical. I do try to stick to one profile and if possible, the same OAL.
I did grab carbine ammo by mistake for a pistol match once and had to return home to get the correct ammo. To remedy that in the future, I'm trying Gallant bullets since they're available in multiple colors. I might run into more oal issues if I was using heavier bullets, but Gallant 135's chamber in all my guns. I don't generally see a need for anything heavier than 124gr. So far I haven't had a reason to ream chambers. We all have different requirements though.
My Shadow 2 runs a stock hammer spring but with polishing and other components is under 2 pounds. I was quite surprised with that.
As far as ammo is concerned. Even my competition loads work with all of my handguns so I actually can run the same ammo in all guns.
I guess I just don't push the limits.
Right, but what is the DA pull? The hammer spring has almost zero effect on SA pull. I'm sure the DA in your S2 is nice, but a spring change would lower it. My DA pull is under 5lbs.
To be honest, I could train myself with a heavier DA pull and probably should. My match ammo will run in all my guns, but my DA/SA match guns won't run my other ammo 100% simply due to needing match primers. I bought a bunch of S&B primers on sale so I use them when I can. When they're gone, I'll likely switch to Winchester primers and spring accordingly.
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
By reduced hammers, do you mean you shorten the hooks?
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
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Sorry. Reduced hammer springs. I don't modify the race hammers from CGWMy S2 has been converted over to SA.
About the best I can do DA / SA is 5 pounds 2 ounces DA and 2 pounds 8 ounces SA. This is with reduced hammers and extended firing pins and they will still ignite any primer.
A 2lb SA trigger pull can be achieved with the OEM hammer spring. Springing it lightly enough that it requires match primers is done to lower the DA pull.
Keeping the ammo segregated is an additional concern, but one load doesn't work for all purposes. My SD/HD guns are loaded with premium SD ammo. I also have ammo loaded hot for SD practice, pistol match ammo with Fed primers, and carbine match ammo. The carbine for example shoots almost 200fps faster with a pistol load, which makes dot bounce unacceptable in a match setting. So for me, loading one round for all of my guns is impractical. I do try to stick to one profile and if possible, the same OAL.
I did grab carbine ammo by mistake for a pistol match once and had to return home to get the correct ammo. To remedy that in the future, I'm trying Gallant bullets since they're available in multiple colors. I might run into more oal issues if I was using heavier bullets, but Gallant 135's chamber in all my guns. I don't generally see a need for anything heavier than 124gr. So far I haven't had a reason to ream chambers. We all have different requirements though.
My Shadow 2 runs a stock hammer spring but with polishing and other components is under 2 pounds. I was quite surprised with that.
As far as ammo is concerned. Even my competition loads work with all of my handguns so I actually can run the same ammo in all guns.
I guess I just don't push the limits.
Right, but what is the DA pull? The hammer spring has almost zero effect on SA pull. I'm sure the DA in your S2 is nice, but a spring change would lower it. My DA pull is under 5lbs.
To be honest, I could train myself with a heavier DA pull and probably should. My match ammo will run in all my guns, but my DA/SA match guns won't run my other ammo 100% simply due to needing match primers. I bought a bunch of S&B primers on sale so I use them when I can. When they're gone, I'll likely switch to Winchester primers and spring accordingly.
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
By reduced hammers, do you mean you shorten the hooks?
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Same here.
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
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back to the original question though.
Is it possible to create too much freebore? I can't really find much about this.
Even though I likely won't be using the 115gr Bayou Bullet anymore, I feel like I need to throat as if something like that was possible again.
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You can't throat an S-2 barrel.
Excessive throat "lead" has the potential to deteriorate accuracy.
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You can't throat an S-2 barrel.
Excessive throat "lead" has the potential to deteriorate accuracy.
Sometimes I wonder if I can just pay to have you on a gunsmith support plan so I can call for stupid questions in an effort to prevent broken or ruined stuff.
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You can't throat an S-2 barrel.
Excessive throat "lead" has the potential to deteriorate accuracy.
Sometimes I wonder if I can just pay to have you on a gunsmith support plan so I can call for stupid questions in an effort to prevent broken or ruined stuff.
At least he has allways talked to me on the phone if I can reach him. And I have sent him a gift certificate, but you might inquire which ones he prefers! Great guy! ;)
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I just saw that Barsto is making S2 barrels. If you really want one with more lead...
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I had no problem throating my P07 with a cheap reamer. It was choking on factory hollow points as well as my reloads. Works great now.
Ahhh yeah.... the P-07 P-09 and S2 have nitride treated barrels. Your reamer will not cut those. You need a special reamer or just send it to a shop that has one. Real PITA... sorry
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Oh good to know!