More P Gun thoughts

[briang2ad]

No, sorry not the striker fired glockslayer. (Someday when they wake up we will have our own pages cuz it makes sense).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcZQy70MUSY

Interesting comment on the P09 durability.  Once you get over his 'ugly baby' statement, it makes sense.  If I were BUYING for a PD or military, i would NOT downselect a P07/9 because of the TRS.   No way.  For usins its no big deal to put in a CGW TRS, and looks like CZUB may have changed their TRS after 30 years. 

I'm a tad surprised that it did not bench better than a G17, but this IS a sample of one. 

Not a bad review.

[DOC 1500]

Pretty good video, but, this guy should have done his homework before he even shot the gun. Had he come on The Forum to find out what this pistol is capable of actually doing ( meaning trigger pull smoothness and weight).
Follow through completely on the modifications and suggested polishing, ( not saying every po9 will turn out the same).
I believe he would have found that the trigger pull # is capable of being taken down to
 DA 7 # or lower.and SA takin down to 3 # or lower.
Not all P-09's are capable of this.
Dave at CGW told me that out of 10 po9's that he could modify ,
6 would turn out excellent,
  3 would turn out pretty good,
1 not so much.
Here were my results
6.8 DA...2.8 SA smooooooth
And I don't even have the much lighter comp  hammer spring or the extended firing pin. Or a competition hammer, or the short reset kit.JMHO
And yes I know the components I have not added really would not lower trigger pull  , but would give a perceived lighter trigger feel.
Edit : the lower hammer spring probably would have lowered the trigger pull even more, and I would have had to ad a heavier sear spring.
I don't do competition or Bullseye Shooting.
This is my EDC self defense pistol.
Safety first always

[briang2ad]

I think it is good to see what NON CZers experience OTB.  Fact is CZ triggers are all over the map.  TRSs do break and make them a non-starter for LE/MIL. 

Yes, for "usins" who understand the potential, they are THE GO TO. 

I even shoot my Pguns a bit better than my PreBs (I was surprised at this the other day).  They are my real go to.  HOWEVER, if I had to take a gun OTB, and go to compact with it and NO mods, I'd likely grab an HK. 

Yes, I take my current P guns over them for other reasons, but I'd have to admit the above statement.

[Raining_Brass]

His findings are about on par with what we see in the vast majority of P-07/09's honestly.

The huge majority we see come through:
- have 10+lb DA's
- do not group better than the average glock. Average P-07 and 09 accuracy from a ransom rest with various ammo we've tested is 3-3.5" @ 25 yards. The best we got with match ammo was just over 2". I'm sure there are 07's and 09's that are capable of better. But from what we've seen, that is not the case with 90% of them.

[Dwright]

I just picked up a p-07 for carry and shot 260 rounds through it last Saturday.  The trigger is very good right out of the box.  I have no intentions of doing anything to the trigger.  I'm sure it will get better with age.  I have a HK p30sk that had a very long heavy trigger pull out of the box but 1800 rounds later it feels great.  It will never feel as light as some striker fired triggers but that's why I carry da/sa guns

[DOC 1500]

Can't help  thinking  that CZ - QC doesn't worry much about quality control because they know everybody on the forum is going to mod them anyway and make them better (
not that we are the only ones to buy them)  why should they spend the money to do it. On the other hand the price you pay for them and what it cost for mods makes a huge  difference.

[Earl Keese]

His findings are about on par with what we see in the vast majority of P-07/09's honestly.

The huge majority we see come through:
- have 10+lb DA's
- do not group better than the average glock. Average P-07 and 09 accuracy from a ransom rest with various ammo we've tested is 3-3.5" @ 25 yards. The best we got with match ammo was just over 2". I'm sure there are 07's and 09's that are capable of better. But from what we've seen, that is not the case with 90% of them.

This has been my experience with polymer CZ's as well. My P-07 Duty has a great otb trigger and shoots tiny rested groups. My P-09 and 2 P10's did not. The PM barrel made a considerable improvement in group size with my second P10-C. 

[M1A4ME]

My DUTY P07 is pretty good.  My 9MM P09 is better.  The .40 S&W P09 not quite as good as the .40 S&W P07.

Triggers on all four were less than 4 lbs. SA and less than 9 lbs. DA (who shoots DA?  Not me, cocked and locked, everyone, all day/night).

The P07 .40 has the best trigger, the 9MM in the middle (almost, not quite as good as the P07) and the .40 P09 is third.

Glocks?  Got one.  Shot others.  Nope.  If I want to shoot patterns with an out of the box gun I'll stick to the shotgun.  If I want to put hundreds of dollars into a pistol to help me shoot it better, I'll stick to the CZ's and put an RMR/red dot on it.

First time I shot a Glock 9MM at the range I also shot a cheaper Taurus copy of the Beretta 92.  The Taurus shot rings around the Glock.  I gave it 20 years or so to see if they'd figure out how to make them shoot better groups and bought one.  Maybe they'll get it right in another 20 years.  I won't be here to know about if it happens.

As they say, your mileage may vary.

[Earl Keese]

Shooting small groups consistently(for me) is more difficult with a striker fired pistol.
Notice that Raining Brass mentioned the use of a random rest. I'm thinking this makes a difference in comparing Glock accuracy to other platforms.

[Joe L]

My success rate with the polymer guns has been excellent.  I have two P-09s, one P-07, one P-10F, one P-10C.  The only one that isn't up to par for a bullseye gun is the P-10C and I will eventually replace the front locking block with another one when they are available.  The P-10F appears to be as good as the demo P-09/ex bullseye match gun.  But, they aren't stock and I had to spend some time learning to shoot them to see how good they were mechanically. 

My opinion is that there are a lot of good guns out there being shot by people with less than perfect trigger skills, even from a rest.  I have concluded that it takes a lot of practice to shoot one well, even two handed from a rest.  I've never been terribly interested in Ransom rest results, because people shoot guns, and guns recoil differently when going from a two handed hold to a single hand bullseye hold and from a rest. 

Even Glocks with aftermarket barrels will shoot well. 

Joe

[Raining_Brass]

Shooting small groups consistently(for me) is more difficult with a striker fired pistol.
Notice that Raining Brass mentioned the use of a random rest. I'm thinking this makes a difference in comparing Glock accuracy to other platforms.

The only real way to test a pistol for accuracy is with a ransom rest and at least 5 shot groups, nothing less. A human - no matter how good they are - isn't as good as a ransom rest. lol

[Hammer Time]

I'm somewhere around 1400 rounds with my P-07 and have had no durability issues or concerns at all.

The biggest take-aways for me were his observations about the accuracy and "shootability" he experienced when actively shooting the gun. In my mind and in my practice, this is not a target/range gun, so I could care less about how it performs from a bench rest at 25 yards. And my experience shooting the gun when drawing from a holster, while moving, with quick target acquisition, etc. mirror his observations.

[Raining_Brass]

I'm somewhere around 1400 rounds with my P-07 and have had no durability issues or concerns at all.

The biggest take-aways for me were his observations about the accuracy and "shootability" he experienced when actively shooting the gun. In my mind and in my practice, this is not a target/range gun, so I could care less about how it performs from a bench rest at 25 yards. And my experience shooting the gun when drawing from a holster, while moving, with quick target acquisition, etc. mirror his observations.

That is true. 90% of duty oriented guns are considered to have more than acceptable accuracy shooting 3" at 25 yards -  and that is by and far what most of them will shoot. But, some people want more out of them. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that if someone is seeking it from an aftermarket standpoint and not expecting the gun to come from the factory shooting better.

[Claymore504]

Video seems to be more compitition focused. That is not my thing. Even though he states the P09 is mechaniclly just as accurate as a Glock, I am much more accurate with my P09 than a Glock and that is what matters. I do agree with him on the TRS being an issue. That is the one for sure thing I changed out with a CGW one when I got my P07 and P09.

But the fact is I think you have to look at the P07/09 series for what it is, a DA/SA polymer handgun. Really the only compitition I see for it is the FN FNX and the PX4. I think compared to those you can pick up a CZ 07/09, add a CGW TRS along with a few other parts and be right there in the same price.

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

Well I'm still one of the lucky one's who's never had a trs fail yet. I'm up to 11,000 rnds on my P-07 no issue. So the springs fail for some from time to time. Guns being what they are will have parts fail that's just a fact yet some want to hype the failures on certain brands/models yet gloss over the same failures on other particular brands/models.
Here's a link that some may find interesting as far as one mans experience with glocks.
https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/are-glocks-truly-perfection