More P Gun thoughts

[briang2ad]

Let me just say that IF I left the house when SHTF, I'd likely grab a P09.  NONE OTHER. 

I also think they are more accurate than most production  handguns.  Read too many reviews from folks shooting sub 3" at 25 yards (factory) - some 1.5" with more than one load.  I applaud PM for bringing us the match barrel though! 

I've also read/watched reviews that stated that the P09 was softer shooting and/or faster
on split times than a Shadow.  This is pretty darn good for a sub-$500 piece of Tupperware.


But:

- The P guns have triggers (like other CZs) that OTB, are literally all over the map. 
- I've broken many TRSs in CZs.  WAY too many to count.  The point is that I see no reason for a PD or Military to select CZ unless this was fixed.  It would not take much of a test to prove me right on this one point.  The rep IS both overblown by detractors AND underestimated.  But the BL is that this type of issue cannot be tolerated in a Mil/LE contract. 

[Raining_Brass]

Let me just say that IF I left the house when SHTF, I'd likely grab a P09.  NONE OTHER. 

I also think they are more accurate than most production  handguns.  Read too many reviews from folks shooting sub 3" at 25 yards (factory) - some 1.5" with more than one load.  I applaud PM for bringing us the match barrel though! 

But:

- The P guns have triggers (like other CZs) that OTB, are literally all over the map. 
- I've broken many TRSs in CZs.  WAY too many to count.  The point is that I see no reason for a PD or Military to select CZ unless this was fixed.  It would not take much of a test to prove me right on this one point.  The rep IS both overblown by detractors AND underestimated.  But the BL is that this type of issue cannot be tolerated in a Mil/LE contract.

You can find videos of Glocks and other production duty guns doing the same thing. But those are not indicative of how the huge majority of them perform. We have almost 2 dozen shop P-07's and 09's here. All have been ransom rest tested. I promise you, sub 3" 5 shot groups at 25 yards is not the norm for these guns. Only 2 out the bunch will do under 3" with match ammo. Not trying to argue. Just think people need to be realistic about the accuracy performance.

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

Let me just say that IF I left the house when SHTF, I'd likely grab a P09.  NONE OTHER. 

I also think they are more accurate than most production  handguns.  Read too many reviews from folks shooting sub 3" at 25 yards (factory) - some 1.5" with more than one load.  I applaud PM for bringing us the match barrel though! 

But:

- The P guns have triggers (like other CZs) that OTB, are literally all over the map. 
- I've broken many TRSs in CZs.  WAY too many to count.  The point is that I see no reason for a PD or Military to select CZ unless this was fixed.  It would not take much of a test to prove me right on this one point.  The rep IS both overblown by detractors AND underestimated.  But the BL is that this type of issue cannot be tolerated in a Mil/LE contract.

I'm not going to jump on hypotheticals about what to take in a hypothetical bug out situation. If we find ourselves heading down that road then what pistol to grab is likely the least of our worries.
 The P-07/09 probably would never be considered for LE/MIL contracts as those entities are ALL in the bag with striker fired pistols. Hammer fired pistols are considered "old tech" now. Wouldn't matter what CZ does or does not do with the trs issue. Wouldn't matter what improvements are made period.
CZ is moving forward with striker fired development and the hammer fired guns will only stay around as long as there still appears to be some market for them otherwise I see CZ going the way S&W did when the M&P line was rolled out and they eventually phased out ALL production of DA/SA pistols.

[Raining_Brass]

Let me just say that IF I left the house when SHTF, I'd likely grab a P09.  NONE OTHER. 

I also think they are more accurate than most production  handguns.  Read too many reviews from folks shooting sub 3" at 25 yards (factory) - some 1.5" with more than one load.  I applaud PM for bringing us the match barrel though! 

But:

- The P guns have triggers (like other CZs) that OTB, are literally all over the map. 
- I've broken many TRSs in CZs.  WAY too many to count.  The point is that I see no reason for a PD or Military to select CZ unless this was fixed.  It would not take much of a test to prove me right on this one point.  The rep IS both overblown by detractors AND underestimated.  But the BL is that this type of issue cannot be tolerated in a Mil/LE contract.

I'm not going to jump on hypotheticals about what to take in a hypothetical bug out situation. If we find ourselves heading down that road then what pistol to grab is likely the least of our worries.
 The P-07/09 probably would never be considered for LE/MIL contracts as those entities are ALL in the bag with striker fired pistols. Hammer fired pistols are considered "old tech" now. Wouldn't matter what CZ does or does not do with the trs issue. Wouldn't matter what improvements are made period.
CZ is moving forward with striker fired development and the hammer fired guns will only stay around as long as there still appears to be some market for them otherwise I see CZ going the way S&W did when the M&P line was rolled out and they eventually phased out ALL production of DA/SA pistols.

Winner.

It's a shame but it's true. Striker guns are just too "easy" in so many different ways. Easier to work on/fix, no safeties/decockers, so generally regarded as easier to shoot. It sucks, but it's true. DA/SA guns aren't going anywhere, but I don't see them ever being taken seriously for mil or LE guns any longer. Hand fulls of SoF units will probably be the only guys and gals using DA/SA guns for real duty purposes.

[M1A4ME]

So, I suppose the reason for some many LE shootings these days is "ease" of shooting vs. accuracy?

That last one in NYC, where the plain clothes/off duty LEO was killed by the other LEO's-they shot 40+ times with no innocent bystanders hit, just a couple police officers - and the bad guy had a toy gun, so he sure didn't shoot anyone.

Or that place in TX a few months ago where the LEO's were on the street outside the office/precinct and someone took a shot at them and they shot 80+ times and didn't hit anything/anyone?

Just stirring things up, but accuracy is importan, not just how many rounds it'll fire and how fast it'll fire them.  Maybe, if they didn't have nearly half a box of ammo in the magazine they could learn to hit what they shoot at with more regularity.  Not just cops, everyone.

Pet peeve of mine.  Spray and pray it was called 40 years ago when I was in the Army.

[Hammer Time]

Reliability may be more important in a professional realm (debatable) but in most other regards, I take "what LE/Mil use" with a grain of salt. Anyone who knows anything about the firearm selection process for most professional agencies knows that there are a whole host of other factors that go into the decision besides handgun quality. And there are plenty of "professionals" who shoot once or twice a year for their qualifier and that's about it.

"... Hand fulls of SoF units will probably be the only guys and gals using DA/SA guns for real duty purposes."

I think this is likely true, and it speaks volumes. Not about SoF units and their choices (who actually know how to shoot), but about the rest.

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

So, I suppose the reason for some many LE shootings these days is "ease" of shooting vs. accuracy?

That last one in NYC, where the plain clothes/off duty LEO was killed by the other LEO's-they shot 40+ times with no innocent bystanders hit, just a couple police officers - and the bad guy had a toy gun, so he sure didn't shoot anyone.

Or that place in TX a few months ago where the LEO's were on the street outside the office/precinct and someone took a shot at them and they shot 80+ times and didn't hit anything/anyone?

Just stirring things up, but accuracy is importan, not just how many rounds it'll fire and how fast it'll fire them.  Maybe, if they didn't have nearly half a box of ammo in the magazine they could learn to hit what they shoot at with more regularity.  Not just cops, everyone.

Pet peeve of mine.  Spray and pray it was called 40 years ago when I was in the Army.

Yep.
 Todays handguns are plenty accurate if the operator does his part.
Lack of training and practice are the problem.
There used to be a video of a state trooper here in OHIO in a shoot out with a suspect during a traffic stop. Both officer and bad guy expended many rounds at each other never more than 15-20 ft apart and at one point both were out in the open and neither ever connected a round with the other. Eventually I think the bad guy made back to his car and a chase ensued.

[Raining_Brass]

So, I suppose the reason for some many LE shootings these days is "ease" of shooting vs. accuracy?

That last one in NYC, where the plain clothes/off duty LEO was killed by the other LEO's-they shot 40+ times with no innocent bystanders hit, just a couple police officers - and the bad guy had a toy gun, so he sure didn't shoot anyone.

Or that place in TX a few months ago where the LEO's were on the street outside the office/precinct and someone took a shot at them and they shot 80+ times and didn't hit anything/anyone?

Just stirring things up, but accuracy is importan, not just how many rounds it'll fire and how fast it'll fire them.  Maybe, if they didn't have nearly half a box of ammo in the magazine they could learn to hit what they shoot at with more regularity.  Not just cops, everyone.

Pet peeve of mine.  Spray and pray it was called 40 years ago when I was in the Army.

If you knew the firearm incompetence of the average police officer, you would understand why making things as easy as possible for them takes such a high priority in looking for a new firearm for departments.
We work very closely with a lot of LE. Most of them:
- only shoot ONE TIME A YEAR when they're FORCED TO for qualifications
- BARELY pass qualifications. Some do not pass at all and have to re qualify at a later date.
Just because they carry guns daily - does not mean they know squat about them or that they're a good shooter.

**I am not bashing LE guys. At all. I have nothing but respect for anyone who puts on that uniform. But to think that automatically qualifies them as firearms knowledgeable could not be further form the truth.

[briang2ad]

My ONLY point about the TRS is that it would be a disqual in a half decent Mil/LE selection process.

Yes, there are examples of bad selection processes and bad selections.  BUT... if you look at the LONG track records of HK, SIG, Glock in LE/Mil, it is excellent overall. 

There are some folks out there rethinking the SF hype.  DA/SA is still a viable choice despite most LE/Mil totally ignoring them.  As a general troop weapon, SF is dumb. 

 

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

I don't dispute the CZ trs problems but there are also many that have not had issues with them. So what if a particular group wanted to test the P-07/09 and they received a batch of P series CZ's and they functioned flawlessly? There's no way to know if a spring will fail till it does.
The Ohio State Patrol rejected glock years ago because more than one sample they received had the slides go flying off during testing. They went Sig instead and still are with Sig as far as I know.
I personally won't even consider giving up my da/sa guns which include Sigs Berettas and CZ's. I recently gave the Sig P320/M17 a test drive and I wouldn't own one at half price YUK!. Phooey on strikers.

[briang2ad]

Phooey on strikers.

True sir!  (I own a few and will hang on to them, but...)

Although I do like the P99.  A SF gun of a different color.

[Mifune326]

So, I suppose the reason for some many LE shootings these days is "ease" of shooting vs. accuracy?

That last one in NYC, where the plain clothes/off duty LEO was killed by the other LEO's-they shot 40+ times with no innocent bystanders hit, just a couple police officers - and the bad guy had a toy gun, so he sure didn't shoot anyone.

Or that place in TX a few months ago where the LEO's were on the street outside the office/precinct and someone took a shot at them and they shot 80+ times and didn't hit anything/anyone?

Just stirring things up, but accuracy is importan, not just how many rounds it'll fire and how fast it'll fire them.  Maybe, if they didn't have nearly half a box of ammo in the magazine they could learn to hit what they shoot at with more regularity.  Not just cops, everyone.

Pet peeve of mine.  Spray and pray it was called 40 years ago when I was in the Army.

If you knew the firearm incompetence of the average police officer, you would understand why making things as easy as possible for them takes such a high priority in looking for a new firearm for departments.
We work very closely with a lot of LE. Most of them:
- only shoot ONE TIME A YEAR when they're FORCED TO for qualifications
- BARELY pass qualifications. Some do not pass at all and have to re qualify at a later date.
Just because they carry guns daily - does not mean they know squat about them or that they're a good shooter.

**I am not bashing LE guys. At all. I have nothing but respect for anyone who puts on that uniform. But to think that automatically qualifies them as firearms knowledgeable could not be further form the truth.

I'm a 29 year veteran and certified range instructor for one of the largest departments in the nation.  Raining Brass is 100% correct (at least that's my experience with our department).  No offense taken RB.  Those are the facts.