Author Topic: The stacking P series, and part of the solution  (Read 1263 times)

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Offline DOC 1500

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2019, 08:35:29 AM »

The side of the trigger bar does nothing about stacking.
Maybe not the stacking part but it sure does smooth out the pull. The more you can off that side of the trigger bar and the shinier you can get it the less friction there's going to be. Make it look like Chrome makes a difference, and a good bit of Grease.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 01:25:46 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline briang2ad

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2019, 06:59:46 PM »
Quote
My wife has an unmodified P-07 from the same batch, the difference is quite apparent. I believe, judging by where the stacking occurs, that it probably stacks when the firing pin block lever starts moving upward against the block. That means it is either in the block or the lever. Since the CGW lever is a low friction precision machined part, it is probably the block. I did need to do a lot of work on it, so that makes sense.

I seriously doubt the lifter arm is causing the gun to stack.  The lifter and block give a very slight resistance - it should not cause stacking.  You can get CGW parts to help this, but it is not that big a problem.

Stacking is the bugabear of the Omega system.  It happens because of "parts stacking".  My instructions are about stacking and 'a solution'.  The thread I posted is interesting and while for tuning, I learned something - when all else fails, look at filing and polishing the REAR slope of the TB. I went to the range today, and I can testify - my P07 that I was going to DUMP, now has an excellent trigger,

And there is a reason I mentioned that the mirror polish of the TB where it touches the frame does nothing about stacking - because it doesn't.  It can get rid of some of the gritty feel - and that is good.  But I want people to not WASTE time polishing and repolishing the TB side to get at stacking, because it would be a waste of time.  Grit will go away with 1000 rounds also.  Stacking makes you suck in DA - and that defeats the purpose of the gun. 

Offline DOC 1500

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2019, 11:18:31 PM »
Quote
My wife has an unmodified P-07 from the same batch, the difference is quite apparent. I believe, judging by where the stacking occurs, that it probably stacks when the firing pin block lever starts moving upward against the block. That means it is either in the block or the lever. Since the CGW lever is a low friction precision machined part, it is probably the block. I did need to do a lot of work on it, so that makes sense.

I seriously doubt the lifter arm is causing the gun to stack.  The lifter and block give a very slight resistance - it should not cause stacking.  You can get CGW parts to help this, but it is not that big a problem.

Stacking is the bugabear of the Omega system.  It happens because of "parts stacking".  My instructions are about stacking and 'a solution'.  The thread I posted is interesting and while for tuning, I learned something - when all else fails, look at filing and polishing the REAR slope of the TB. I went to the range today, and I can testify - my P07 that I was going to DUMP, now has an excellent trigger,

And there is a reason I mentioned that the mirror polish of the TB where it touches the frame does nothing about stacking - because it doesn't.  It can get rid of some of the gritty feel - and that is good.  But I want people to not WASTE time polishing and repolishing the TB side to get at stacking, because it would be a waste of time.  Grit will go away with 1000 rounds also.  Stacking makes you suck in DA - and that defeats the purpose of the gun.
Okay we get it the TB has nothing to do with stacking. But by polishing it  does make the pull smoother.
 so just fix the stacking and polish.
If you just fix the stacking and don't polish, you got a non stacking gritty trigger. I'm done
JOHN 3:16
2 COR.5:17
A Lie is a Lie even if everybody believes it ,
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Offline briang2ad

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2019, 09:33:15 AM »
I just wanted to stay on topic.  That’s all.  There is a good thread that is quite long, now a sticky that deals with grit.  Easy bro.

The thread title is also on target.  Grit makes us all 'feel bad', but really doesn't ruin the trigger pull (unless it is literally out of control).  Stacking can ruin the DA pull, pull you off your intended target, cost time, and ruin your confidence.  It is also something that the stickies don't cover. 
« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 02:42:00 PM by briang2ad »

Offline Hemiscorpius lepturus

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2019, 06:31:29 PM »
Actually I don't think i mentioned polishing the bar where it meets the frame, I was talking about where it meets the metal of the slide being polished, and where it rotates against the trigger. I did flatten the side a bit and removed the oxide layer, but kept the grooves to hold grease.

As for the firing pin block, the P-07 works a little differently than some of the striker fired pistols I have. On my XDM pistols, a lever is raised vertically and presses the center of the block. On the P-07, the thin lever rotates up against the side of the block. This causes the block to slightly tilt in place before it moves upward. If the sides of the block are not smooth, it can bind against the slide, and cause a VERY large increase in force against the lever, much more so than the block spring. This of course manifests as stacking.

I am not saying what you have done does not improve things. The back of the trigger bar needs to move a lot of stuff. The total movements of action and their points of interaction can introduce multiple stacking forces. In fact, chances are high that i did polish the exact area you are talking about, I did a lot of stuff to the gun when it was apart.

Offline miller_man

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2019, 07:27:59 PM »
Make sure you post back when you do your work.  It would help others with "stacking P guns".

Yes, I will definitely do so.

 Reading the continuing of this thread, I will say - with the frustration I had, I definitely went to town polishing a LOT of things weather I knew how/if they would help or not. Look forward to checking out how this goes and I will look at the other things discussed while I have it all apart.
List of guns here?

Offline MadDuner

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2019, 08:48:43 PM »
Make sure you post back when you do your work.  It would help others with "stacking P guns".

Yes, I will definitely do so.

 Reading the continuing of this thread, I will say - with the frustration I had, I definitely went to town polishing a LOT of things weather I knew how/if they would help or not. Look forward to checking out how this goes and I will look at the other things discussed while I have it all apart.

I did all I could do to make it as good as it could be while I had it apart.  I saw no reason to not spend the extra effort in search of the best result possible.....and am now very happy with the result.

Offline briang2ad

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2019, 06:45:53 PM »
One more step and PERFECTION.  Just put a stock SMALL roller back into this mama jamma.  It is NOW my BEST P series trigger.  Filing and polishing the rear ramp on the TB, then using the small (.211) stock roller and I have the perfect P series trigger! 

Offline DOC 1500

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2019, 10:17:43 PM »
One more step and PERFECTION.  Just put a stock SMALL roller back into this mama jamma.  It is NOW my BEST P series trigger.  Filing and polishing the rear ramp on the TB, then using the small (.211) stock roller and I have the perfect P series trigger!
F I N A L L Y !!!! 👍
That's got to make you happy 🤗
Okay now that you're done with that one , what are you buying next 🤔
JOHN 3:16
2 COR.5:17
A Lie is a Lie even if everybody believes it ,
The Truth is the Truth even if nobody believes it !!!

Offline MadDuner

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2019, 10:31:45 PM »
One more step and PERFECTION.  Just put a stock SMALL roller back into this mama jamma.  It is NOW my BEST P series trigger.  Filing and polishing the rear ramp on the TB, then using the small (.211) stock roller and I have the perfect P series trigger!
F I N A L L Y !!!! 👍
That's got to make you happy 🤗
Okay now that you're done with that one , what are you buying next 🤔
Isn’t that the truth of our mutual addiction?

We ALWAYS find the “next” one.

Offline @mindset_1st

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2019, 12:24:29 AM »
To big a roller bearing also causes stacking. The best is to have different sized rollers and test them all to get the best timing for the specific gun

Offline briang2ad

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2019, 10:21:03 PM »
To big a roller bearing also causes stacking. The best is to have different sized rollers and test them all to get the best timing for the specific gun

True!

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2019, 05:47:25 AM »
Been reading/not commenting as I don't ever use DA.  Cocked and locked kind of guy.

But, I will mention that when I do polish the side of the trigger bar I also leave the grooves left over from the machining process.  Not for lube but sort of (in my head anyway) a place for crud to work into and stay until I get an opportunity to clean the pistol really well.

Some of the rifles used in desert/dusty conditions (FAL for one) have grooves cut into their bolt carriers called sand cuts.  The idea was to give the dirt/dust a place to work into that would allow the bolt/carrier to continue forward/rearward movement easier as it got dirty during use in combat.  Seemed to me the machining grooves in the trigger bar might function similarly.  And, once you've polished the metal above/around the grooves the surface of the trigger bar contacting the frame is already smooth.  Further metal removal just increases the internal clearances between the trigger bar and frame and might cause other issues as the bar has more room to cock sort of sideways during rearward movement.  Or so it seemed to my in-experienced CZ mechanic mind.

The next time I pull one of the plastic framed guns down that far I'll try to remember to look at the back of the trigger bar and recall/look up this thread.

Thanks.
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Offline Winkel

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2019, 04:40:16 PM »
Been reading/not commenting as I don't ever use DA.  Cocked and locked kind of guy.

But, I will mention that when I do polish the side of the trigger bar I also leave the grooves left over from the machining process.  Not for lube but sort of (in my head anyway) a place for crud to work into and stay until I get an opportunity to clean the pistol really well.

Some of the rifles used in desert/dusty conditions (FAL for one) have grooves cut into their bolt carriers called sand cuts.  The idea was to give the dirt/dust a place to work into that would allow the bolt/carrier to continue forward/rearward movement easier as it got dirty during use in combat.  Seemed to me the machining grooves in the trigger bar might function similarly.  And, once you've polished the metal above/around the grooves the surface of the trigger bar contacting the frame is already smooth.  Further metal removal just increases the internal clearances between the trigger bar and frame and might cause other issues as the bar has more room to cock sort of sideways during rearward movement.  Or so it seemed to my in-experienced CZ mechanic mind.

The next time I pull one of the plastic framed guns down that far I'll try to remember to look at the back of the trigger bar and recall/look up this thread.

Thanks.
That actually makes a lot of sense.  In the injection molding industry, sliding members in a tool will have small grease grooves intentionally ground in them.  This helps it hold grease and gives foreign particles somewhere to ride until the next cleaning and PM.

 

anything