Author Topic: The stacking P series, and part of the solution  (Read 1521 times)

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Offline briang2ad

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The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« on: June 22, 2019, 08:42:30 AM »
Folks:

Some of you have P guns that stack - that is get stiff towards the END of the pull.  You polish switch parts, etc. etc. to no avail . I finally found one solution that seems to make a difference.  FILE and polish the place where the trigger bar slopes to engage the disco.  By taking off metal then polishing it to a mirror finish, maintaining the angle, it gets MUCH better.  Polishing alone does nothing. 

Some P guns stack more than others.  One other one went back to CZ and they installed a new hammer and with a bunch of firing, it went away.  This other one got mush better with the above work.  I was actually going to sell the gun off, then I decided to work the TB one more time.

You are not dealing with the very rear of the trigger bar (which does need polishing), but the place on the right side as it slopes up. 

(I don't have the capability to post pics of this - sorry).

Offline tomjbyron

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2019, 09:27:35 AM »
I'll have to take a look at this suggestion.

I have three DA/SA P-series guns. All three had different trigger pulls. My UG P-07 was in pretty good shape. I ended up putting all the CGW parts into it. My P-09 has a very nice trigger with nothing but a reduced power trigger return spring and some polishing. It has a 8.5-9 pound DA but it's very smooth and consistant.

My newest P-07 isn't horrible, but needs some work. I've done the polishing, but would like to see what I can get out of the parts without going CGW.

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Offline MadDuner

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2019, 10:20:29 AM »
I'll have to take a look at this suggestion.

I have three DA/SA P-series guns. All three had different trigger pulls. My UG P-07 was in pretty good shape. I ended up putting all the CGW parts into it. My P-09 has a very nice trigger with nothing but a reduced power trigger return spring and some polishing. It has a 8.5-9 pound DA but it's very smooth and consistant.

My newest P-07 isn't horrible, but needs some work. I've done the polishing, but would like to see what I can get out of the parts without going CGW.

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I got mine to about a 75% improvement by polishing everything that touched anything else, and removing the black rough and crusty coating on the sear face where it contacted the hammer face.
Another very gritty part of it was the groove the spring rode in for the trigger bar (if nomenclature is correct).

Offline miller_man

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2019, 06:41:09 PM »
Ya, I'd love to see a defined picture of the place your talking about.

I have 2 09's and 2 07's - all with good triggers with a little CGW love and some tuning, except one. The first 07 has a rough  stacking DA pull, toward the end and I've done everything polishing related at least twice, swapped out parts for CGW, add new parts and called CGW and got their take - still haven't found the culprit. I've thoroughly thought about selling it multiple times - but I've got it milled and a venom on it, I won't get near what I've got in it, plus I like the setup.

List of guns here?

Offline briang2ad

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2019, 09:57:37 PM »
Ya, I'd love to see a defined picture of the place your talking about.

I have 2 09's and 2 07's - all with good triggers with a little CGW love and some tuning, except one. The first 07 has a rough  stacking DA pull, toward the end and I've done everything polishing related at least twice, swapped out parts for CGW, add new parts and called CGW and got their take - still haven't found the culprit. I've thoroughly thought about selling it multiple times - but I've got it milled and a venom on it, I won't get near what I've got in it, plus I like the setup.

I had the SAME problem and was also considering selling it!  (This is why I always recommend buying a P gun in person).

See this thread and especially the 8th photo:
https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=70324.0

Most of the thread is about custom fitting.  The 8th pic gets into DA timing.  Taking some of this out smooths and decreases over travel.  For me all else failed but this helped.

I used this thread to focus on the slope shown on the TB.  I just needed to be more aggressive.  Remember, if you destroy a TB you just buy a new one.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2019, 10:27:09 PM by briang2ad »

Offline MarilynMonbro

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2019, 09:40:34 AM »
So step 4 in that thread is the area to file and polish?

Offline briang2ad

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2019, 05:28:41 PM »
So step 4 in that thread is the area to file and polish?

Basically yes.  I know it talks about doing a little changes the DA a bunch, but in practice its not that radical.  I had to do it twice, and the second time I used a file before smoothing.

About the worst problem to run into in the P series is the stacking in the rear and over travel.  This seems to be a real help.  Hope it helps some folks here. 

Offline miller_man

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2019, 08:54:23 PM »
So step 4 in that thread is the area to file and polish?

Basically yes.  I know it talks about doing a little changes the DA a bunch, but in practice its not that radical.  I had to do it twice, and the second time I used a file before smoothing.

About the worst problem to run into in the P series is the stacking in the rear and over travel.  This seems to be a real help.  Hope it helps some folks here.

Fantastic, can't wait to try it out. I will have to wait a few days till I have the free time. Thanks for posting!
List of guns here?

Offline briang2ad

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2019, 07:59:04 AM »
Make sure you post back when you do your work.  It would help others with "stacking P guns".

Offline Mjolnir

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2019, 05:14:26 PM »
Any before/after pics??


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Offline briang2ad

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2019, 05:58:44 PM »
I can get an after pic sometime in the near future.  Its a matter of taking the stone or file and applying it in the same angle right on the red part.  In my case i stoned the crap out of it and still had issues.  Then I filed it down with an aggressive small triangle file, again, keeping the angle.  I re-assembled and it felt much better.  It took work with a file. You still have stone to a polished finish again.  It moves the break farther back.  If you screw up your trigger bar, they are easy to replace.

Offline schmeky

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2019, 06:55:41 PM »
The factory trigger bar is stamped steel.  While economical, the consistency is not there.  If the rear angle where the disco runs is off a few degrees, the DA can be difficult to fix.

We remove all the "lines" that develop when the bar is stamped at the rear right angle and mirror polish this area.  Then we take our CGW disco and mirror polish the small flat on the wings face. 

This can help a ton.  Sometimes we have to install a new trigger bar (even on a new pistol) to get the DA right.

Then there's the roller, and thankfully CZ-UB has managed to tighten up production tolerances in the last few years.  This means fewer roller sizes, but on occasion, CZ-UB really misses the roller size and this, added to the trigger bar, is like arm wrestling to get a great DA.

It can be done, but you have to perceiver. 

Offline DOC 1500

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2019, 07:23:37 PM »
  don't forget to Stone down and highly polish the side of the trigger bar that rubs up against the frame.
And looking from the rear of the gun the left side of the frame where the hammer rubs up against.
And where the trigger actually goes through the frame Stone down the sides of the frame a little highly polish and highly polish the side of the trigger.
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Offline briang2ad

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2019, 08:26:25 AM »
Not to get off track I had to install a new TB on a PreB to correct the gritty/stacky DA pull.  Its amazing what a new trigger bar can do on SOME guns.  I had tried a new TB on this problem P09, but to no avail.  It took working on the rear slope of the TB as stated above.  If you can pick up a gun that has no stacking, it can be great.  Grit can be easily dealt with through polishing and shooting.

The side of the trigger bar does nothing about stacking. 

Offline Hemiscorpius lepturus

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Re: The stacking P series, and part of the solution
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2019, 05:39:01 AM »
My P-07 has 0 stacking, literally none. Think a Shadow 2, but with a stronger mainspring. The force required to pull the trigger does increase across the pull, but it is linear.

It has the pro kit installed by me and I did a ton of polishing, including areas generally not touched during a standard polish job. Most notably, I also polished the firing pin block, the sear, the pins, and the trigger. I spent over an hour on the trigger bar. The parts that meet the trigger and slide are like glass. Both sides of the trigger are polished to a mirror finish, as is the firing pin block. Not just where the lever presses it, but also where it enters the slide. I also bent the trigger bar spring to reduce the tension, and further bent the tip down so it does not touch the bar.

Lubrication is also very important. The firing pin block hole in the slide has been polished with moly powder, pin channel too. Most of the surfaces that touch things are lubricated with a teflon grease, but I used a teflon oil on all the springs, including the mainspring which is often forgotten, as well as where the trigger meets the bar. Where the trigger bar spring goes into the groove I use moly grease.

My wife has an unmodified P-07 from the same batch, the difference is quite apparent. I believe, judging by where the stacking occurs, that it probably stacks when the firing pin block lever starts moving upward against the block. That means it is either in the block or the lever. Since the CGW lever is a low friction precision machined part, it is probably the block. I did need to do a lot of work on it, so that makes sense.

I would suggest removing the block and mirror polishing the sides. I used 1500 grit on that followed with a 2000 finish. The sear got 2500 and nothing else.

 

anything