Author Topic: A sad thing, but maybe necessary.  (Read 2210 times)

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Offline armoredman

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A sad thing, but maybe necessary.
« on: August 09, 2019, 01:46:18 AM »
Recent events prompted me to try something I don't do enough of - long distance shots from concealment. Basically I set the steel at 55 yards, (measured later, thought it was 50), and facing in random direction, would draw, fire three aimed shots, and if no two clangers, would move to a barricade and fire three more. Without two clangers out of 6 rounds, shooter is "dead" as rifle armed "bad guy" could be reasonably likely to A), realize he is getting shot at and B ) use his superior long distance firearm to render me room temp. Why practice this? Well, I did swear that oath thing, twice, enemies foreign and domestic, serve and protect, all that jazz. In all reality, if in a chaotic situation such as recently, I will be moving my family OUT of the area, and let the real first responders tackle the issue, but if need be, I wanted to see how well I might do. With a compact size pistol this was not the easiest of tasks, for a fat old guy like me. This was one good set.



But, like I mentioned to others, that was TWO rounds out of THREE...and in a chaotic environment, where that third round went could be of immense importance later. After approximately 100 flawless rounds through the P-10C, I had had maybe five or so perfect sets, with the first two rounds clanging. All the rest had rounds into the berm/Grandma shopping for Junior's first headphones. However, I recommend you try it, just once, if you can. This P-10C continuously surprised me with its abilities. Me, not so much. It's also eye opening about many posters I see on other websites, "I'd take that clown out with my Ruger EC9S, no problem!" Yes, Captain Whizbang, there IS a problem.

Offline Texas377

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Re: A sad thing, but maybe necessary.
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2019, 02:14:57 AM »
How fat and how old??   ;D  Good training technique.  It's common sense …  If you have a handgun and are confronted by an aggressor with a rifle, you disengage and fall back to better cover.  Hypothetically, your handgun (.380, 9mm, etc.) is no match for his 5.56. 
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Offline bravo5two

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Re: A sad thing, but maybe necessary.
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2019, 08:06:00 AM »
Great comment about what happened to the 3rd round.  Side note, did you practice with a timer?  I've found given all kinds of time, 3 shots to 50 yds onto a C-zone steel with any pistols isn't a big deal, but add the timer factor, yep, 50/50 at best for me.

Offline larryflew

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Re: A sad thing, but maybe necessary.
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2019, 12:42:44 PM »
Great idea on the timer.  Any competition with a timer gets at least some adrenaline going and if in a real situation fighting that adrenaline is paramount to winning the fight.
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Offline John A.

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Re: A sad thing, but maybe necessary.
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2019, 03:06:03 PM »
While I have never used a timer, I have tried on several occasions to step back to way more than my usual 25 yards to shoot.

I admit that I am not a fast followup shooter, unless I guess unless my adrenaline was pumping, and subsequent shots are probably going to be a big fat miss anyway with wasted bullets.

I never claimed to be a very good handgun shooter.  Though I can normally part your hair with a rifle.

I should get out and shoot more. 
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Offline recoilguy

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Re: A sad thing, but maybe necessary.
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2019, 03:24:30 PM »
….or keep a rifle close by  ;)

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What I lack in speed , I make up for with inaccuracy

Offline Skookum

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Re: A sad thing, but maybe necessary.
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2019, 05:07:18 PM »
Great comment about what happened to the 3rd round.  Side note, did you practice with a timer?  I've found given all kinds of time, 3 shots to 50 yds onto a C-zone steel with any pistols isn't a big deal, but add the timer factor, yep, 50/50 at best for me.


I believe the military regards 50 yd as the maximum combat effective range for a service-caliber handgun, based on the ability of a trained (to qualifying standards) serviceman to place half his rounds on a stationary, man-sized target at that range.
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Offline MadDuner

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Re: A sad thing, but maybe necessary.
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2019, 05:51:11 PM »
Great idea Armoredman!

I continue to shoot at longer distances - simply because of the kinds of things that happened lately.  Some days I’m really on it.  Some days I am not as good.  But I keep practicing.  I still like my Mozambique drills but with 5 or 6 targets at varying distances, with the steel at 100 yds.  There’s a pretty huge difference between running the drills with my SP-01Tac, the P-07 and the Sig P290RS.  I work with all of them every time.  Yes, out to 100 yds IS ridiculous, but improving there means a much better chance of not hitting Grandma at 50 yds while she gets those headphones.

While NOT hitting Grandma is very important, engaging these guys at any distance looks like it more times than not - stops the attack.  Putting them on the defensive looks like it ruins their plans pretty quickly.

What I have to do is bring some barricades/concealment to fire from - on both left and right sides.  I need more steel for that positive reinforcement - or negative disappointment immediate feedback thing too.

Offline Skookum

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Re: A sad thing, but maybe necessary.
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2019, 06:55:41 PM »
While not hitting Grandma is ideal, in an active mass shooter scenario it is more important to stop the shooter than to (Heresy!) be overly concerned about your backstop.  As you point out, just putting the shooter on the defensive seems to be enough to disrupt his killing spree.  If a stray bullet thru Grandma is what accomplishes that, many others will almost certainly be saved.  The Dayton Antifa killer's death toll, despite the cops' 30-second response time, is chilling.


The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (or the one).
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Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Re: A sad thing, but maybe necessary.
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2019, 04:40:49 AM »
While not hitting Grandma is ideal, in an active mass shooter scenario it is more important to stop the shooter than to (Heresy!) be overly concerned about your backstop.  As you point out, just putting the shooter on the defensive seems to be enough to disrupt his killing spree.  If a stray bullet thru Grandma is what accomplishes that, many others will almost certainly be saved.  The Dayton Antifa killer's death toll, despite the cops' 30-second response time, is chilling.


The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few (or the one).
-Spock (and Kirk)


While this notion may well have some merit to it I'd say let that stray bullet that goes through grandma come from a police officers gun. Being a hero and charged with involuntary manslaughter at the same time and losing everything you own to pay legal fees won't do your family any good either. Even if you beat the criminal charge in many states you won't beat the civil suit brought by the grandmas' family.

Offline Winkel

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Re: A sad thing, but maybe necessary.
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2019, 09:27:47 PM »
I have my steel targets set at 50 yards off my deck.  I shoot rounds of five a couple of nights a week.  If I really take my time, I can hit 5 for 5.  The challenge is to increase my cadence, which really forces the fundamentals of stance, grip, sight picture and trigger press.

On the days that I've had ANY caffeine, I shoot worse. 

On a really good day, after a couple of shots, I can 'one potato, two potato' hit five in a row.  I know it's not practical, but I enjoy the challenge of longer range shooting with a 9mm pistol.   This is on a 12" X 20" silhouette target. 
I'm going to get a bigger plate and hang it at 100 yards like Hickok 45. 

Offline thedude

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Re: A sad thing, but maybe necessary.
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2019, 11:00:31 PM »
I'm going to get a bigger plate and hang it at 100 yards like Hickok 45.

Yeah, I don't know how big "the gong" is, but it's a pretty big plate. 

Offline armoredman

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Re: A sad thing, but maybe necessary.
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2019, 06:33:38 AM »
….or keep a rifle close by  ;)

RCG

That would be difficult in most places I travel, honestly, even though I did actually do that as an experiment years ago with the vz-58 in a UTG case. In AZ it IS legal to conceal a rifle and carry it if one is so inclined to do so, but it is...a pain. The People Mover doesn't lend itself to keeping a rifle near to hand, either, but there are days when one might find it's way behind the seat.
Now if I had the Scorpion outfitted with folding stock knuckle in one of those 5.11 bags, that would be good, but still a pain, especially going into some stores, "Sir, you need to leave your bag with us." Yeah, not gonna happen.  ;D But you are rght, a long gun on tap is better vs long gun than handgun any day of the week at range.

Offline MadDuner

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Re: A sad thing, but maybe necessary.
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2019, 11:27:30 AM »
My 12” x 20” silhouette is hit quite a bit at 100 yds with 9mm.  It gets hit more than I would expect at 150 yds. At 200 yds its by guess and by golly whether you hear the faint “plink” sound if you do manage to hit it.  Yes, it’s unreasonable, and beyond effective range.  But who doesn’t enjoy a challenge?  We got who buys lunch riding on those challenges!

Offline armoredman

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Re: A sad thing, but maybe necessary.
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2019, 05:00:30 AM »
That's much better than I can do standing!  8) :o I remember watching Joe L here tag a paper plate at 200 yards with his P-09 a while back, too. I really don't remember what the dimensions on my steel is - it's a 3/4 IDPA.
Quote from: SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM
...While this notion may well have some merit to it I'd say let that stray bullet that goes through grandma come from a police officers gun.

And the latest report from Dayton is two civilians WERE hit by police bullets, though the one fatality they state was caused by the murderer before the LE bullet hit. They had no choice, they had to shoot.

 

anything