Author Topic: Color coated quality compared to jacketed bullets  (Read 1137 times)

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Offline deadsh0t

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Color coated quality compared to jacketed bullets
« on: August 14, 2019, 03:11:54 AM »
Hello,
have you found yet a color coated bullet that could guarantee as much accuracy (or at least 95%) of a jacketed bullet?

A manifacturer says I should threat a good coated bullet as a jacketed one. So, if the barrel is .3555", .3555" bullets will be fine.

How to validate or disprove that?

For example, would you ever rate Blue Bullets (since they're the most used, I guess), as accurate, or at least 90%, of a typical JHP? I guess the answer for as accurate would be no every time.

Would you pick a bigger coated bullet any time?


Offline Earl Keese

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Re: Color coated quality compared to jacketed bullets
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2019, 06:41:18 AM »
Coated lead are softer, you want a slightly oversized projectile -  .356 or even .357. You either need to try both sizes or slug your barrel to confirm its diameter. In my experience,  certain coated lead bullets in my 9x19 pistols(pre-b cz75)are good for rested 25yd groups under 2". 50yd groups open up considerably but I load for 20-25yds(practical match use). For the type of groups you were looking for in your other thread, jacketed HP is the way to go. For matches I load 135rn coated in .357. I get some lead fouling and degraded accuracy with .356 diameter bullets.

Offline deadsh0t

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Re: Color coated quality compared to jacketed bullets
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2019, 08:45:08 AM »
Coated lead are softer, you want a slightly oversized projectile -  .356 or even .357. You either need to try both sizes or slug your barrel to confirm its diameter. In my experience,  certain coated lead bullets in my 9x19 pistols(pre-b cz75)are good for rested 25yd groups under 2". 50yd groups open up considerably but I load for 20-25yds(practical match use). For the type of groups you were looking for in your other thread, jacketed HP is the way to go. For matches I load 135rn coated in .357. I get some lead fouling and degraded accuracy with .356 diameter bullets.

Is it possible that some coated bullets may be of higher quality, or there can't be any way that they would work as a jacketed bullet?

Some manifacturers insist that their bullets are good enough to pick the same bore diameter. One says it's for the cartridge reaction but I can't even see the difference, while I'm not sure the accuracy is good past 25 yards (I still got to find how to test the group correctly).

Jacketed HP is not an option, of course I'll try HAP 125 grains but the left options will be some random FMJ bullets or color coated bullets.

They tend to sell .355 and .356 diameters for coated bullets, I'm not sure it will be easy to ask for 124/.357 but I would like to try them.

Except for that, any idea? Is there any possibility that with technology development, a good coating would be as good as a jacket?

Offline oteroman

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Re: Color coated quality compared to jacketed bullets
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2019, 09:17:35 AM »
Bigger
Blue are on the small range.
Cast can’t compare to jacketed.
In a realistic comparison test.
Totally different class of bullet.
Apples an oranges.

Offline deadsh0t

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Re: Color coated quality compared to jacketed bullets
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2019, 10:00:49 AM »
Bigger
Blue are on the small range.
Cast can’t compare to jacketed.
In a realistic comparison test.
Totally different class of bullet.
Apples an oranges.

So, why are there some (maybe few) bullseye shooters using lead and color coated?

Except for that, is it possible that people tend to accept the compromise for action shooting?

Some say bigger diameter leads to bigger felt recoil, for example

Offline Earl Keese

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Re: Color coated quality compared to jacketed bullets
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2019, 11:27:03 AM »
Bigger
Blue are on the small range.
Cast can’t compare to jacketed.
In a realistic comparison test.
Totally different class of bullet.
Apples an oranges.

So, why are there some (maybe few) bullseye shooters using lead and color coated?

Except for that, is it possible that people tend to accept the compromise for action shooting?

Some say bigger diameter leads to bigger felt recoil, for example
Loading for bullseye shooting with coated lead in .45acp is different than loading 9x19, and at 50yds many still go with jacketed. It depends on the gun.
 Yes, people accept slightly larger groups for action shooting. Why spend more money for accuracy that exceeds one's need? Cheaper ammo equals more volume for similar cost, allows for more training.
 You can't have low cost, extreme accuracy, and low recoil with the same load, just doesn't happen. Most beginning reloaders learn this within a few months after getting started.

Offline anonymouscuban

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Re: Color coated quality compared to jacketed bullets
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2019, 06:20:45 AM »
Loading for bullseye shooting with coated lead in .45acp is different than loading 9x19, and at 50yds many still go with jacketed. It depends on the gun.

Yes, people accept slightly larger groups for action shooting. Why spend more money for accuracy that exceeds one's need? Cheaper ammo equals more volume for similar cost, allows for more training.

You can't have low cost, extreme accuracy, and low recoil with the same load, just doesn't happen. Most beginning reloaders learn this within a few months after getting started.

^^^^^This!

I shoot USPSA. I shoot coated lead bullets. Main reason is simple... I can buy 135gr hitech coated bullet for 5 cents per as opposed to 9+ cents per for a jacketed bullet.

I have a buddy I shoot with that is constantly telling me I should switch to a jacketed bullet. He explain how much more accurate they are than coated, how you don't have leading problems, etc. All true.

However, I don't need the extra accuracy. I can shoot 2" groups at 25 yards with my coated bullets. More than enough accuracy for USPSA. I also have zero leading issues with the bullets I run. So what is the return I'm gonna get in spending double for a jacketed bullet?

For me, I get more from shooting twice as much for the same cost than I would the extra accuracy may or may not realize.

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« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 07:59:53 AM by Wobbly »

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Color coated quality compared to jacketed bullets
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2019, 08:19:32 AM »
Have you found yet a color coated bullet that could guarantee as much accuracy (or at least 95%) of a jacketed bullet?
No. It is impossible to cast lead with any precision (that's a function of the material itself), AND lead bullets are usually cast with the sprue coming off the base. Therefore the critical muzzle-to-bullet base fit will most always be rough and uneven.

A manufacturer says I should threat a good coated bullet as a jacketed one. So, if the barrel is .3555", .3555" bullets will be fine.
Manufacturers can say anything they want. The proof is in the testing. So get some bullets and start testing.

How to validate or disprove that?
With your gun, a variety of ammo, and a pistol rest of some type on a range at a distance of your choosing. Usually also with a chrono.

For example, would you ever rate Blue Bullets (since they're the most used, I guess), as accurate, or at least 90%, of a typical JHP? I guess the answer for as accurate would be no every time.
For 'ultimate' accuracy  'No'. For 'useable' accuracy possibly. Anything is possible. Only testing will answer the question.

Would you pick a bigger coated bullet any time?
With any type of lead bullet you have to find a bullet type, a bullet size, and powder that work in your gun. Only testing will find that combination.

It is traditional to pick a lead bullet 0.001-0.002" larger than the bore of your barrel. The problem is, many manufacturers list their bullet by the size barrel they are intended to fit, not the actual physical size of the bullet. So while they advertise a 0.355" bullet, they may actually measure 0.357". You won't know until you talk to the manufacturer.
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Offline xhairczs

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Re: Color coated quality compared to jacketed bullets
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2019, 01:31:02 PM »
I am very fond of the hitech coated bullets and find them superior to plain hard cast bullets that I have shot for many years.  Compared to plain hard cast they smoke less, have no leading, and are much cleaner.  As noted above the cost is much less than jacketed bullets, however they do smoke a little more than jacketed.

As far as accuracy goes, who knows?  I am not a bullseye shooter so this is not an issue for me. I shoot my same loads in a number of different guns and they all I feel shoot better than I can.  However, I have several 1911s that are guaranteed to shoot 1” at 25 yards and come with a test target.  It is my understanding that the test target is shot with a standard hard cast target load.

In addition to being available in different diameters, the ogive will vary with manufacturer, and may or may not have a grease grove.

Offline deadsh0t

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Re: Color coated quality compared to jacketed bullets
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2019, 06:34:56 PM »
Loading for bullseye shooting with coated lead in .45acp is different than loading 9x19, and at 50yds many still go with jacketed. It depends on the gun.

Yes, people accept slightly larger groups for action shooting. Why spend more money for accuracy that exceeds one's need? Cheaper ammo equals more volume for similar cost, allows for more training.

You can't have low cost, extreme accuracy, and low recoil with the same load, just doesn't happen. Most beginning reloaders learn this within a few months after getting started.

^^^^^This!

I shoot USPSA. I shoot coated lead bullets. Main reason is simple... I can buy 135gr hitech coated bullet for 5 cents per as opposed to 9+ cents per for a jacketed bullet.

I have a buddy I shoot with that is constantly telling me I should switch to a jacketed bullet. He explain how much more accurate they are than coated, how you don't have leading problems, etc. All true.

However, I don't need the extra accuracy. I can shoot 2" groups at 25 yards with my coated bullets. More than enough accuracy for USPSA. I also have zero leading issues with the bullets I run. So what is the return I'm gonna get in spending double for a jacketed bullet?

For me, I get more from shooting twice as much for the same cost than I would the extra accuracy may or may not realize.

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I think the proportions are similar to here in Italy. Best price I can have ranges from 30-35€/1000 hard cast (124), about 50-55€/1000 per good quality color coated, and FMJ's range from 65€/1000 (quality not confirmed. Some shooters use them and say they are good, but that's as much as "hard cast is good") to whatever one wants to spend. The best I can find is Hornady HAP at about 160€ / 1000 which is a lot.

I wouldn't use the same bullets in training and competitions, that doesn't make any sense, unless I need for some reason. For example, shooting hard cast means I have 20€ left for 1000 rounds, and it's easy to reach that count. The main difference is smoke, and I can't usually train at so long distances to notice any big difference to appreciate that. 20 yards is the maximum I can tipically shoot at, 27 sometimes, about 50-55 even less.

For what I know and read, USPSA has shorter distances than IPSC, especially than IPSC matches in Europe (which is known to have much longer distances).     

Offline deadsh0t

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Re: Color coated quality compared to jacketed bullets
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2019, 06:50:59 PM »
Have you found yet a color coated bullet that could guarantee as much accuracy (or at least 95%) of a jacketed bullet?
No. It is impossible to cast lead with any precision (that's a function of the material itself), AND lead bullets are usually cast with the sprue coming off the base. Therefore the critical muzzle-to-bullet base fit will most always be rough and uneven.

Ok, this makes sense

A manufacturer says I should threat a good coated bullet as a jacketed one. So, if the barrel is .3555", .3555" bullets will be fine.
Manufacturers can say anything they want. The proof is in the testing. So get some bullets and start testing.

Of course testing can give some answers, but not all. For example, he was talking about how some .353/.354 FMJ's still work well because it will expand in the barrel and fit it anyway. Same for lead/color coated. I actually don't believe it can happen so easily, but there's no real testing for this.

How to validate or disprove that?
With your gun, a variety of ammo, and a pistol rest of some type on a range at a distance of your choosing. Usually also with a chrono.

Easy to come up with excuses like "your reload is not good enough, your gun is not accurate, etc...". For example, he told me about a bullet (I think it was a plated one) made a single hole (5 bullets) at 27-28 yards in a manometric barrel. I don't know how much that would change in any gun.

For example, would you ever rate Blue Bullets (since they're the most used, I guess), as accurate, or at least 90%, of a typical JHP? I guess the answer for as accurate would be no every time.
For 'ultimate' accuracy  'No'. For 'useable' accuracy possibly. Anything is possible. Only testing will answer the question.

Would you pick a bigger coated bullet any time?
With any type of lead bullet you have to find a bullet type, a bullet size, and powder that work in your gun. Only testing will find that combination.

It is traditional to pick a lead bullet 0.001-0.002" larger than the bore of your barrel. The problem is, many manufacturers list their bullet by the size barrel they are intended to fit, not the actual physical size of the bullet. So while they advertise a 0.355" bullet, they may actually measure 0.357". You won't know until you talk to the manufacturer.

The bullets I use are advertised as .356" and they are .356". Same for .355"
I didn't notice any difference in terms of recoil or accuracy (no rest, so it was hard to tell any big difference).
The same manifacturer says there's no reason to use .356" or even .357", pressures are higher as much as recoil. And the main reason was : the bullet will expand anyway.

Unless there's a better answer for this, I won't know. I've never read that anywhere. This shooter has always provided good information, so I would like to understand more.



^

---

The ones I'm using have no grease groove, since it's not used. I can tell the base is not perfect and the weight ranges from 123 to 126, with an average around 124.5 with little SD (the bullets under 124 and over 125 are not that much).

Maybe the weight itself could be another reason they're typically not as accurate. I'm using Flat Point / Round Flat, I guess they're better than RN or TC in terms of accuracy.

If I could have 2" at 40 yards that would probably be good enough for most matches.

   
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 06:57:30 PM by deadsh0t »

Offline recoilguy

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Re: Color coated quality compared to jacketed bullets
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2019, 09:55:03 AM »
You cant shoot 2" groups at 40 yards?
You do need a better bullet man!

Personally I would get Precision Delta Jacketed HP. Unless you don't reload, but they shoot 2" groups at 40 yards from a Hi Point C9.
I think the official tester had one arm and an eye patch too. They are accuracy wrapped in copper with a hole in the end.

Coated bullets I am pretty sure can only get you 2.75" groups at 40 yards and that's the Bayou Black Cherry Coated ones, I think their 124g offering with a grease rind gives them the aerodynamic nod in testing. Black Cherry is more accurate than Gold speckle. FYI.

Good Luck, you are well on your way to having a very accurate bullet.

RCG
What I lack in speed , I make up for with inaccuracy

Offline deadsh0t

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Re: Color coated quality compared to jacketed bullets
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2019, 10:44:00 AM »
You cant shoot 2" groups at 40 yards?
You do need a better bullet man!

Personally I would get Precision Delta Jacketed HP. Unless you don't reload, but they shoot 2" groups at 40 yards from a Hi Point C9.
I think the official tester had one arm and an eye patch too. They are accuracy wrapped in copper with a hole in the end.

Coated bullets I am pretty sure can only get you 2.75" groups at 40 yards and that's the Bayou Black Cherry Coated ones, I think their 124g offering with a grease rind gives them the aerodynamic nod in testing. Black Cherry is more accurate than Gold speckle. FYI.

Good Luck, you are well on your way to having a very accurate bullet.

RCG

In 3-4 days i'll try a comparison between HAP 125 grains (.356), color coated (RN-FP 124 grains .356) and some Frontier Plated bullets (124, .356). The last ones are the best plated bullets I've ever heard of, I'm curious about the quality (I know Grauffel used them for training and some people in USA bought them).

Hard to find a good bullet at a low price here in Italy. If I could get that group at about 40 yards (and a similar one at 50), I could stop the research and just use color coated. If that's very far, I'd consider something else.

I'm curious since a lot more shooters are starting to use color coated bullets, but it's hard to tell if they're giving up accuracy for money.

I shot about 5-6000 rounds in competitions last year so it would make a difference to spend 50€ / 1000 (color coated) or about 100-150€ for high quality jacketed bullets (about 80-100 for Fiocchi FMJ and 150 for Hornady HAP).


If there were no competitions with targets farther from 20 yards I would go straight with color coated bullets

Offline noylj

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Re: Color coated quality compared to jacketed bullets
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2019, 11:36:17 AM »
The only lead bullets that have the accuracy potential of a JHP (not plated), is a swaged bullet (just as consistent in weight and dimensions as jacketed since made by the same process). All commercial swaged bullets I have found are 11-13 BHN, which is hard enough for everything up to and including a .44 Rem Mag. Precision Bullets makes a GREAT swaged lead bullets that are coated and really are quite accurate. Zero and Precision Delta make great .38 and .45 swaged bullets, but they aren't coated. For more money, you can look to Magnus. I have not found the other coated cast bullets to be as accurate as the equivalent cast and lubed lead bullets. The only coated bullets that have given me great accuracy are Precision Bullets.
Lead bullets are NOT jacketed, even with coating. Being coated, the bullet OD can generally be the same as the than actual measured barrel groove diameter. For lead bullets, they need to be larger than actual groove diameter, where "soft" bullets will tend to lead less than HARD bullets.
I buy almost all my bullets from Precision Delta or Zero (from Powder Valley, in bulk), lead or jacketed.

Offline tdogg

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Re: Color coated quality compared to jacketed bullets
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2019, 12:48:01 PM »
I wouldn't use the same bullets in training and competitions, that doesn't make any sense, unless I need for some reason.

I would absolutely use the same bullets you train with in competition.  There are recoil, timing, and accuracy (point of impact) considerations that will be slightly different even with the same weight bullets.  If your expecting a certain recoil arc performed during training repetition and show up at the match with a different load/bullet it will take you a couple of stages to get used to the "Competition" load timing.  That is not advised!

I would buy the cheapest (jacketed or coated) bullet you can find and see how accurate you can make it.  Reloading gives you options to tune the load to your gun and you could be surprised how well it could turn out.  Powder selection is key, getting a well metering powder is best when loading large quantities on a progressive.

I don't shoot 9mm much anymore as I shoot 40 in limited major.  I purchase bullets in bulk when on sale and load to make power factor and am able to shoot 1-2 inch groups at 25yds off hand (granted with a TSO with a CGW bushing).  This is plenty accurate for the run and gun games.  And I didn't spend much time developing the load.

Cheers,
Toby