Dry Firing Damage - on a Sig

[jak]

I came across this forum while doing my research into DA/SA sub-compact carry pistols, which lead to the purchase of my RAMI BD. No regrets.

I am an advocate of dry fire exercise. So after spending time on this forum, I was aware of the issue w/ the RAMI's firing pin retaining pin and how to prevent damage to it.  About 95% of RAMI dry firing was done w/ o-ring and snap caps.  A trip to CGW for some of their magic revealed only some minor damage to the FPRP.

I also have a couple of Sigs and I have never heard of any FPRP issues w/ them (maybe wasn't looking hard enough).  So I took no preventative actions while dry firing them.

A short while ago, I found the firing pin on the P239 SAS was showing thru - stuck.   I clean & maintain my pistols on a regular basis, so I was a bit puzzled.  Cleaning and lubricating this time didn't help, so off to the gunsmith.  Gunsmith said he'd only seen one other P239 like that.  He returned the old parts and the FPRP was trashed, just like what you would see on this forum for the RAMI.

Do Sigs and/or others need protective measures when dry firing, or was this a Sig w/ a rare bad pin?  Comments . . .

[M1A4ME]

I read about XD and XDM pistol breaking their striker retaining pins.  PRP sells a heavy duty version.  I bought some, but have not gotten around to installing them after the big XD ended up in the safe a few months back.

Some CZ's never have an issue with the firing pin retaining pin.  Some due. 

Parts are variable.  There is always a specification for each part.  Length, diameter, finish, hardness, etc.  So you take a bunch of parts, with in their specification range and put them all together to make a pistol.  A combination of parts, in spec., but far enough from the center of the spec in on direction or the other, can cause problems.  I believe people call it "tolerance stacking."

Can the specification range be tightened up?  Absolutely.  But it causes the cost of the parts to go and the cost of the pistol to go up.

Having had the damage once, if it was mine I'd take precautions to keep it from happening again.  Snap caps, O-rings, regular removal, inspection, replacement of the pin, etc.  Which ever one works and is acceptable based on time, effort and money.

[Claymore504]

I have not had any damage to my Sigs that I can say for sure was from dry fire. I did buy a P229 40SW from a private seller a couple years ago. The P229 was made in mid 1990s. So, I sent it in to Sig for the service plan. The gunsmith was unable to remove the pin, so they just gave me a new slide. That could have been damage from years of dry fire, but I can't say for sure. Now my CZ SP01 Tactical I bought new. I dry fored it about 50-75 times before I learned of the FPRP damage issue. This was my forst CZ and I was new to them. I removed it to install some CGW parts and it was very damaged already.

So, I just use snap caps with my Sigs and Berettas. With my CZs I use snap caps and orings.

[charlestheforth]

I think youre confused about the purpose of the fprp... the gun is designed to focus all the wear and stress that in a normal gun is sent to the tip of the firing pin, and instead divert it to a 50cent piece that can easily be swapped out.  It's a good thing that the firing pin retaining pins wear out because that wear is lightening the load that would otherwise be placed on the firing pin.  You can easily see when the fprp needs to be switched by simply holding the gun up and looking at the pin to see if its getting deformed. 
I forget the exact seller, but someone is currently selling the cz sized roll pins on amazon, like 30 pins for 5 dollars.  Do yourself a favor and buy a couple packs.  They once or twice a year simply change out the pin.

Ive dealt with way too many guns with firing pin/ striker problems.  a broken firing pin is in my opinion the worst malfunction you can get because it takes your gun out of the fight and its a malfunction that you cant really see coming.  I love the fact that the cz design takes load off the firing pin and diverts it to a 10 cent pin that I can change once a year.  Its a very good design. 

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

I never dry fire practice with any of my pistols. The pins in my CZ's and Sig's have many thousands of rounds fired and show little to no wear. If you dry fire ANY gun on a regular basis I think you should be using snap caps or O rings to protect the system from damage.

[jurek]

Dry firing will wear the gun (FPRP) faster, no doubt. However using oring, snapcap or laser cartridge makes your dry fire the same as live fire. I don't know how SIG manages this but once you change CZ's FPRP to CGW one, you can forget about any damages (at least for 10,000 rounds).

[charlestheforth]

there is a reason why CZ uses less rigid metal for this part though, and not a super strong one like some aftermarket manufacturers. 

slamming the firing pin into a very rigid fprp puts maximum stress on the firing pin.  Its like punching a brick wall, all that shock reverberates back up through your arm.   
When you make the piece less rigid, it lessens the blow on the firing pin, but at the cost of having to switch out the fprp ever year or so.

 Its designed to be a part that absorbs shock.  Switching it out with a more rigid part is putting all the shock that the fprp should be absorbing back into the firing pin. 

[skipper49]

Thanks very much to all for this thread. The design purpose of the fprp clear to me now, and I intend to stock up on STOCK CZ pins for regular replacement.
I love my two new PCR’s, but THOUGHT the Fprp was a really deficient design, but now know I’ll get a small quantity and change liberally. AND, LOK thin grips COMPLETELY change the feel of a gun that already feels good, to a gun that is very near an extension of my hand.
Regards,
Skip

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

Just buy the CGW pin and never worry about it again.

[CCWLearner]

I only own one Sig, a P290, and it uses a firing pin stop plate at the rear of the slide... there's no retaining pin to be damaged.

On my P-07's, I found damage on one of the stock retaining pins, as I was in the process of replacing it and swapping other parts out with CGW parts.  It had less than 1K rounds through it and maybe a few hundred dry fire pulls.  It had a gouge in it, and there was a chunk of it loose in the firing pin channel.  Having taken them apart since installing the CGW retaining pins, those pins have the finish knocked off of them, and the metal looks a bit stressed, but they aren't deformed.

CGW also warns to not use any solid steel retaining pins to avoid damaging their firing pins.  Their retaining pin is hollow spring steel, with a gap at 12 o'clock, that provides some cushion for the impact of the firing pin.

Currently, I dry fire one of two ways, either with an o-ring and a plastic Barrelblok insert that also serves as a snap cap, or with a laser cartridge and no o-ring.  I didn't think the laser cartridge would activate with an o-ring in place, but maybe it will.

[jurek]

CGW also warns to not use any solid steel retaining pins to avoid damaging their firing pins.  Their retaining pin is hollow spring steel, with a gap at 12 o'clock, that provides some cushion for the impact of the firing pin.

Currently, I dry fire one of two ways, either with an o-ring and a plastic Barrelblok insert that also serves as a snap cap, or with a laser cartridge and no o-ring.  I didn't think the laser cartridge would activate with an o-ring in place, but maybe it will.

Great note CCWLearner,

I dry fire with Laser Cartridge and no problems or deformations with CGW retaining pin.
I was curious how to fry fire with oring, so I bought one. I'm not sure if the purpose is to NOT hit firing pin with hammer (oring around the pin) ot it doesn't matter. However when I setup the oring on firing pin, and hammer hits the pin through the rubber - it activates laser.
To be honest I don't know if using oring with laser cartridge or snapcap make any sense....
Any conclusions / recommendations?

[CCWLearner]

Any conclusions / recommendations?

If simply dry firing, if you have both a snap cap / barrel insert and an o-ring, I'd use both to provide maximum protection for the retaining pin and the firing pin itself.

When I dry fire with a barrel insert and an o-ring, I normally am doing it with a MantisX attached.  I have had problems in the past with the MantisX detecting shots with the o-ring in place, but currently it is working about 99% of the time.  They change their shot detection algorithms regularly, and there's a setting for increased sensitivity if your shots aren't detecting.  Anyway, if it's detecting the vast majority of time, then I choose to run with both.

If I'm using the laser cartridge, obviously there's no way to use a snap cap or barrel insert, but if the cartridge is still activated with the o-ring cushioning the impact on the firing pin, then I guess it would be less damaging on the retaining pin, firing pin, and the switch in the laser cartridge to run with the o-ring.

As for the o-rings, I have some black rubber ones, and some red silicone ones... normally run with the red silicone o-rings for a better visual reminder that one is installed.  I have had "light strikes" at the range only to realize I hadn't removed the black o-ring, heh.

One thing though is especially with the silicone o-rings, they get slippery if they pick up any excess lube off of your slide, then they slide around and don't stay in place to cushion the firing pin as intended, especially on double-action pulls.  So I may use a bit of isopropyl alcohol to degrease around the firing pin and the o-ring itself.

[jurek]

Thx CCWLearner