Author Topic: How does VZ 2008 steel quality compare with VZ58 components?  (Read 5973 times)

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Offline Laufer

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How does VZ 2008 steel quality compare with VZ58 components?
« on: November 06, 2019, 03:44:42 AM »
Or did many 2008s have true Czech-made barrels and receivers, as would be found in Czechpoint VZ-58s?

Being quite familiar with Rob Ski's high round-count tests with the prematurely-degraded Century RAS "AK" (never mind the now-defunct I.O.) compared to imported AKs with the same round counts, this prompted my curiosity.

Trading one of my imported AKs for a nice 2008, owned by a buddy, might be an option. Won't know for a few days.


Offline sboone

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Re: How does VZ 2008 steel quality compare with VZ58 components?
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2019, 11:57:25 AM »
2008 has US made barrel made to a price point, and US receiver made to a price point.

VZ 2008 as a whole was made to a price point.

A D-Technik or CSA is more or less a semi auto copy of the full auto military rifle.

They both use surplus parts but by and large the Czech guns are more expensive for a reason.

Robski did CSA VZ 58 5k test and it did great. Would a VZ 2008 do as good? Probably not i suspect.

Like in the other thread, if youre still entertaining the thought of trading the SAR1 for a 2008, there needs to be some serious incentives coming with that 2008. I would scrap the thought of a trade for that gun and look for a real 58 and avoid the century

Offline Laufer

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Re: How does VZ 2008 steel quality compare with VZ58 components?
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2019, 12:08:27 PM »
That's what I suspected. The best accuracy isn't an issue with me, rather durability.

The possible problem is that this new buddy's 2008 has seen about 1,000 rds., and I tend to put up to at least 2,000 rds. into my imported AKs (all are imported-thanks to Rob Ski's AK tests).

Thanks for clarifying this.
It's very doubtful, or probably not even possible, that Century used a true Czech barrel in this guy's 2008.

Offline sboone

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Re: How does VZ 2008 steel quality compare with VZ58 components?
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2019, 12:29:30 PM »
They didnt, VZ 2008s have a cheap non chromed green mountain barrel I think. Green mountain makes some good barrels, but they also build barrels to a price point for century, and have on multiple occasions for various century builds.

Offline TJNewton

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Re: How does VZ 2008 steel quality compare with VZ58 components?
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2019, 08:02:13 AM »
The VZ2008's don't have Czech barrels.  The barrels are, as said above, made by Green Mountain.  But they are not cheap.  Even though they are not chrome-lined, they hold up well.  I have about 5,000 rounds through one of my VZ2008's, and I can still shoot ragged holes at 50 yards, will no noticeable detriment as the barrel heats up.  I usually shoot about 150-200 rounds a session in controlled fire of about 1 every 1-2 seconds.  Repeated mag dumps may affect that outcome.  I've had this rifle for five years, and the only things I've used to clean it is a boresnake and ATF.  The crown, barrel, and chamber still look perfect. 

The receiver is also well made, although it may be slightly shallow.  I've had two bolts break the narrow lug after several thousand rounds.  The bolts were skimming the ejector and the floor of the receiver that houses the ejector.  Maybe thousands of rounds of that bolt glancing off of those areas sent it into battery slightly off-kilter, inflicting cumulative stress and causing the breakages.  Or was it a coincidence of two heavily-worn surplus parts?  Impossible to tell.  Regardless, I fitted new bolts (about $40 each, complete), taking about a half hour for each rifle, gently filing the bottom of the bolt so that it clears the receiver, and filing down the ejector so that it doesn't touch the bolt.  This was done recently but so far function has been perfect.

Speaking of function, none of my VZ2008's have failed outside of those bolts.  No jams, FTF, FTF, FTE.  They eat any kind of ammo from FMJ, to HP, to SP, to brass.  I never had the gremlin but had all the carriers tabbed for insurance.  What may be considered a failure, however, is that all my folding stocks stripped out the retaining nut.  That's exclusively a surplus part and somewhat common.  I think it may be the way I hold the rifle and how it twists against my shoulder.  Anyway, it was a quick fix with an 5.8 mm hex flang nut, some copper tubing cut into a small ring as a dust cover for the spring, and a black plastic cap expoxied onto the nut.  The fix has held up for thousands of rounds.

Surplus parts are used extensively in both Czechpoint and VZ2008 variants.  I believe that Czechpoint is far pickier with the surplus parts they use than Century was.  The fit and finish on Czechpoints is likely to be far nicer, although one of my VZ2008's is beautiful; the others have some uglier parts here and there, none of it affecting function.  Some people will report that Czechpoint manufactures all their parts for their rifles, but to this day the FAQ on their website states the use of surplus parts.  I think they make some of their own furniture, but most of the active parts are surplus. 

Some of the Czechpoints don't have a bayonet lug, which for most is a non-issue, but it is nice to have, especially for surplus bipods.

I got my VZ2008's several years ago for $400-500 and with five magazines, pouch, cleaning kit, bayonet and sling.  One of the greatest deals of the decade.  I had never bought a Century gun before that, and now reading reports of their AK's and C308's, will never buy one from them again.  I've read that most of the VZ2008 was farmed out and that Century actually had very little to do with them.  Today, VZ2008's seem to go for about $700, a little more if extras are included.  Still not a bad price, but I think I'd spend an extra $400-600 to get a Czechpoint with the chrome-lined barrel and 5-year warranty.  That said, your trade will probably be decent.  If you do get it you might consider having the carrier tabbed, and spending a little time fitting the bolt to the rifle.  I think you'll enjoy it.






Offline Laufer

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Re: How does VZ 2008 steel quality compare with VZ58 components?
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2019, 12:04:19 AM »
TJNewton: Thanks very much for your objective info. The details and time you spent are appreciated.

Whether or not my buddy will want to trade his 2008 won't be decided until late Sunday. I would still have my Maadi, AMD-65 (by TGI) and MAK 90.

*Two gun deal/sales I'm doing Sunday (not the same guy) will give me the cash to order a CSA or Czechpoint VZ-58 if I decided to acquire a Second-or first of this overall VZ type.

Glad I knew beforehand about the C39, RAS, I.O. … via AKfiles.
**The VZ 2008 seems to have less stress in the action or higher quality steel than these AK clones which showed unusual deformation long before 3,500, then 5,000 rds. (while limiting barrel temps) by Rob Ski  8) on YouTube.

wags68

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Re: How does VZ 2008 steel quality compare with VZ58 components?
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2019, 10:59:31 AM »
I have owned both the CIA VZ2008 and CSA VZ58.  I sold my VZ2008 and now have 3 VZ58s.  The CSA rifles are top notch in every way (fit, finish, reliability) and worth every penny.  If you are going to have cash for a CSA VZ58, I would just go that route and skip the VZ2008. 

Things to keep in mind about the VZ2008s:  The US made barrel is a .308 diameter barrel and 7.62x39 ammunition is .311.  I have heard (not first hand experience) the .308 barrels wear out sooner using steel cased imported ammunition.  Also, the safety selector on the VZ2008 operates in reverse from VZ58, if that matters to you.

Good luck on your decision!

Offline TJNewton

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Re: How does VZ 2008 steel quality compare with VZ58 components?
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2019, 02:29:57 AM »
I have owned both the CIA VZ2008 and CSA VZ58.  I sold my VZ2008 and now have 3 VZ58s.  The CSA rifles are top notch in every way (fit, finish, reliability) and worth every penny.  If you are going to have cash for a CSA VZ58, I would just go that route and skip the VZ2008. 

Things to keep in mind about the VZ2008s:  The US made barrel is a .308 diameter barrel and 7.62x39 ammunition is .311.  I have heard (not first hand experience) the .308 barrels wear out sooner using steel cased imported ammunition.  Also, the safety selector on the VZ2008 operates in reverse from VZ58, if that matters to you.

Good luck on your decision!

Good points.  With the market today bearing VZ2008's at $700 with a fair amount of schwag, and the CSA rifles at $1150-1350, I would have to do some thinking about which to get:  One CSA, or two VZ2008's.  I would have to see the VZ2008's in person first to make that decision.  Since I'm significantly invested in the VZ58 platform with parts and magazines, the CSA VZ58's are a constant temptation.  I've got enough to work and play with now, but as Larry Potter says, "How many guns does a man need?  Just one more."

I've considered the 0.308 barrel on the VZ2008 and have done a little research.  Second hand info from reloaders seem to say either they don't know but wouldn't risk it (whatever that may entail), or that they've done it regularly without harm and even eek out a little more accuracy.  I've also read that the metal jacket in Russian ammo is extremely soft compared to a hardened barrel and shouldn't cause any more wear with the relatively low-pressure 7.62x39 round.  I think it's in the AR's with higher pressure that the metal jacket has more effect.

I'm curious:  What about the VZ2008 you had was inferior to your CSA's?  Was it fit and finish, or -- aside from the tab -- were there functional and practical differences? 

Offline TJNewton

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Re: How does VZ 2008 steel quality compare with VZ58 components?
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2019, 02:53:31 AM »
TJNewton: Thanks very much for your objective info. The details and time you spent are appreciated.

Whether or not my buddy will want to trade his 2008 won't be decided until late Sunday. I would still have my Maadi, AMD-65 (by TGI) and MAK 90.

*Two gun deal/sales I'm doing Sunday (not the same guy) will give me the cash to order a CSA or Czechpoint VZ-58 if I decided to acquire a Second-or first of this overall VZ type.

Glad I knew beforehand about the C39, RAS, I.O. … via AKfiles.
**The VZ 2008 seems to have less stress in the action or higher quality steel than these AK clones which showed unusual deformation long before 3,500, then 5,000 rds. (while limiting barrel temps) by Rob Ski  8) on YouTube.

You're welcome.  I hope the deal works out well for you

I'm not sure if I read your post accurately, but the rifle Robski uses in his 5,000 round test is a CSA VZ58, not a VZ2008. 

If you do consider the trade, and are concerned about the weakness of the receiver's metal, know that gouges along the rail are completely normal, and that they show up also on the CSA VZ58's.  I've even seen them in pictures of torch cut military VZ58's.  The gouges on the VZ2008 will be deeper, most likely due to the slightly shallower receiver, but stop progressing almost immediately after the first range session.  The scraping along the receiver floor next to the ejector is easily fixed by massaging the bolt and the ejector as described above.  Don't let that normal gouging in the receiver dissuade you, if you are considering the trade.  The thread below has some info, but unfortunately it was created before Photobucket went fugazi and the photos are either gone or blurred.  You can see some of them in a smaller form in the general results of a Google image search using the terms "VZ2008 peen" or "VZ58 peen".  If you click on the photos they'll just take you to the blurred version in the thread, but you can zoom in on your browser and get a pretty good look.  In summary, the rails will have some shiny flats and, most notably, bilateral gouges just behind the ejector.  That is all normal.  The receivers on my VZ2008's have held up extremely well, and I hope that the bolt issue was either a bizarre coincidence or corrected by removing the interfering areas. 

https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=79297.0

Offline Laufer

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Re: How does VZ 2008 steel quality compare with VZ58 components?
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2019, 03:32:43 AM »
True, Rob Ski’s evaluation only tested the VZ-58 by CSA.
My comment was about his pretty disappointing  test of the Century RAS AK, at about the  3,500 rds. point.

 8)—I’m ordering a new Czechpoint 58 today-. “In the box” new.

Whether or not the buddy wants to do a trade with his VZ 2008 for my threaded Romy AK is secondary.

It wouldn’t hurt to have both types of VZs. With four imported AKs and three German-proofed Sigs, some multiples are interesting.
The lonely superb CZ ‘PCR’ needs a big Czech brother.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 03:42:21 AM by Laufer »

wags68

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Re: How does VZ 2008 steel quality compare with VZ58 components?
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2019, 11:10:24 AM »
TJNewton:  Ultimately it came down to a few items as to why I went with the CSA VZ58 over the VZ2008 - Optics mounting, Barrel and Safety Selector.  The VZ2008 is not drilled and tapped for an optic rail and would have added expense to get it added. Chrome lining and bore diameter were a concern for me (maybe unjustified).  The safety selector, in addition to operating in the opposite direction, allowed my to put it in the "correct" forward position while remaining on safe.   

After considering the extra cost of drilling and tapping the receiver for the VZ2008 and the other issues I noted, I decided that the extra I paid ($1050) for the CSA rifle was worth the extra quality and options.

Offline TJNewton

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Re: How does VZ 2008 steel quality compare with VZ58 components?
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2019, 01:12:52 PM »
TJNewton:  Ultimately it came down to a few items as to why I went with the CSA VZ58 over the VZ2008 - Optics mounting, Barrel and Safety Selector.  The VZ2008 is not drilled and tapped for an optic rail and would have added expense to get it added. Chrome lining and bore diameter were a concern for me (maybe unjustified).  The safety selector, in addition to operating in the opposite direction, allowed my to put it in the "correct" forward position while remaining on safe.   

After considering the extra cost of drilling and tapping the receiver for the VZ2008 and the other issues I noted, I decided that the extra I paid ($1050) for the CSA rifle was worth the extra quality and options.

Makes sense, especially considering the added cost of mounting an optics on the VZ2008.

I would also prefer a chrome-lined barrel over bare steel.  I'm optimistic, however, that the barrel will hold up well on the VZ2008.  Green Mountain has a good reputation, as well as many legendary rifles didn't have chrome-lining, including the M1 Garand, and they held up for several thousands of rounds.  The Ruger AR 556 doesn't have a treated barrel and I've read reports of accuracy remaining even after 10,000 rounds, and that's a much higher pressure of a round. 

Thanks for the insights.  To bring a VZ2008 to par with the CSA VZ58 in today's market seems to make it somewhat a wash, with the favor going to the better barrel, options, and parts selection of a new, warrantied Czechpoint over a used, un-warrantied Century.

Offline RSR

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Re: How does VZ 2008 steel quality compare with VZ58 components?
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2019, 02:30:08 PM »
The Czechpoint/CSA/Dtecnik guns up until a couple years ago had surplus barrels that were chrome-lined, but insofar as accuracy was concerned the Century/Green Mountain barrels generally had more consistent accuracy.  GM were also SAAMI spec chambers whereas CSA are CIP spec.
There's a lot of good reading in old threads; here's one link: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=73023.0

I'm not aware of any reliability or durability issues w/ the Century receivers.  The main difference is that Century guns are teflon coated whereas CSAs have paint.

Insofar as 922r parts/compliance, the Century guns w/ US barrel and receiver also allow for MUCH more in the configuration flexibility/aftermarket parts and furniture usage than the CSA guns.

Personally, the optics rail is irrelevant for me w/ Vz58, and should only really be relevant if wanting to add a magnified/variable optic and needing closer eye relief (w/ variable you also need case deflectors, etc).  Cowitness a compact/micro red dot on an low railed upper handguard rail and you're GTG.  While it's true that you can push 7.62x39 out to 500 to 600 yards, where the round and the Vz58 CARBINE really shine is w/in 300 yards or so.  So again, I use my Vz58s in a carbine role, not a rifle one.

You can also search historic threads here.  At price points when the discussions were most prominent, the question was whether 1 CSA gun has the utility/is actually worth the same as 2.5 to 3 Century guns, and my position has been consistently that NO, they aren't worth premium, especially for new Vz58 shooters.  We're now at an 1.5 (if buying used CSA on gunbroker) to 2 (if buying new from Czechpoint) price differential, which is different math.   But when you price in the cost of spare parts or a parts kit gun, you can still get TWO functioning Century VZ2008s at the price of even the cheapest CSA gun plus spare parts.
But there are considerations above value and utility -- and to note, my VZ2008s have more than doubled in value since I purchased them 5 or so years ago versus new CSA guns that have increased by 20% or so during that time and used that haven't really changed in price.

Offline NativeTexan

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Re: How does VZ 2008 steel quality compare with VZ58 components?
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2019, 04:38:51 PM »
Things to keep in mind about the VZ2008s:  The US made barrel is a .308 diameter barrel and 7.62x39 ammunition is .311.  I have heard (not first hand experience) the .308 barrels wear out sooner using steel cased imported ammunition.
I've considered the 0.308 barrel on the VZ2008 and have done a little research.  Second hand info from reloaders seem to say either they don't know but wouldn't risk it (whatever that may entail), or that they've done it regularly without harm and even eek out a little more accuracy.  I've also read that the metal jacket in Russian ammo is extremely soft compared to a hardened barrel and shouldn't cause any more wear with the relatively low-pressure 7.62x39 round.  I think it's in the AR's with higher pressure that the metal jacket has more effect.

Good stuff in the link RSR posted. I, for myself, enjoy the technical side of things. Also along the same line, I posed that question of .311 thru a .308 bore in the past over in the AKFiles gunsmithing section and it brought out some interesting stuff. The basic outcome was the SAAMI Green Mountain chamber vs CIP chamber, low pressure of the 7.62x39, and basic design tolerances built into the actual cartridge and barrels themselves all added up to negligible and offsetting factors. The issues became much more into of concern when the pressure increased in another round, say in the 7.62x54R. Interesting reading it came to be, if you're into that stuff.
Everybody measures things differently, as in to everybody variables have different values. For me, I'm totally happy with my 2008. So far it's not stumbled once, and even if it does I'm not using it in a competition or high pressure use role, I'm shooting pigs with a clone of a very interesting and intriguing design, one that I think has been overlooked and unappreciated. Not to mention that I like to be different from the AR crowd and my AK cousins. Not that they can't be appreciated for their own designs and strengths, I just like to be different I guess.
It lives with a 10 rd mag loaded with sp's for a late night stroll thru the pasture, and if it ever gives me problems I'll dig thru a partial parts kit I dug around and found to get the stuff to fix it. I don't foresee mine ever getting to the point the barrel is shot out.
For me it's just not worth the cost to upgrade from what I have, for what I have invested in what I have and the enjoyment I'm having with it. I don't ever plan to flip it, but if I do I'll still come out ahead for what I have in it. But nowadays, for the prices now, and for someone else, it might be worth the difference.

Offline Laufer

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Re: How does VZ 2008 steel quality compare with VZ58 components?
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2019, 07:40:51 PM »
There's No deal, for any VZ 2008. He had forgotten about my proposed rifle trade, or wasn't really interested. I said nothing about it, 
 :) and really appreciate the in-depth information on all of these guns.

His 2008 has run so well with all 1,000 rds. or so--today watched him very focused on a friendly tactical course--that he's very happy with it.

** Note: 8)  I ordered a Czechpoint 58 today, via "Buy Now" on  Gunbroker., "in the box". Some of you guys have seen those (several are avail.). Can imagine that Atlantic Firearms must have been completely sold out for a while.

 Where do we close a thread topic? Already searched.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2019, 07:45:09 PM by Laufer »