Errant first shot_ P09_9mm

[Cujo99]

I have a somewhat new to me CZ P09 in 9mm, late 2015 build, fairly stock except 18# hammer spring, lighter trigger return spring, light firing pin block spring. (only things polished are the FPB, trigger pin, & hammer pin)

This thing is a Jeckel & Hyde deal-- thing loads & ejects great, good even smooth trigger pull, seems to have a decant barrel to slide lock up.

Problem is: first shot goes about 4" high & 2" left (darn near always), then other 9 following shots  go into well under 2" group at 25 yards (rested on sand bag).

Next day it repeats,  first shot goes about 4" (+/-) high & 2" (+/-) left (darn near always), then next 9 following shots  go into well under 2" group at 25 yards (rested).

Barrel lock-up looks good (best I can see & feel anyhow), I have tried using slide lock & slingshot first round chambering with no apparent difference in the wild first shot.

----(all above  test shooting done single action)---


I have been shooting handguns for well over 50 years & have seen a 'number' of gun accuracy  problems in that time but all have been visible & fixable. I seem to be missing something on this one as everything looks OK.

As a controller (to sort of rule ME out) I have shot my P07 (9mm) & P07 .40 first off the same sand bag (multiple times) with all rounds going into a decent group then quickly followed that up with my P09 & still show the same first shot high left. 

I have a coupel of shooting partners & have had them shoot the gun but they do not shoot small enough groups at 25 yards to determine anything.

I sort of points to a first round barrel lock-up issue but I sure can't see, feel, or measure it.

I guess my basic question is: has anyone seen a similar errant first shot with the CZ P09 before & if so any idea what was causing it?

Thanks_

[M1A4ME]

Nope.  Neither of mine do that.

Just for grins/giggles have you tried.
1.  loading a 5 round magazine to see if #1 does the same thing as in a 10 round magazine and 2 through 5 do the same thing as the 2 through 10 in a ten round magazine?

2.  Do some dry firing first, before you shoot for groups?

3.  Chamber that first round, then manually eject it and see if you get a 1 off 8 in the same group pattern?

4.  When unloaded, but with slide forward, can you move the barrel around in the slide up front or push the chamber end around in the slide at the ejection port?

[Cujo99]

1.  loading a 5 round magazine to see if #1 does the same thing as in a 10 round magazine and 2 through 5 do the same thing as the 2 through 10 in a ten round magazine?-- I have tried 3 rounds, fist one goes high left & other 2 go in target center close to each other.

2.  Do some dry firing first, before you shoot for groups?--I haven't dry fired first but have used a different gun first then switched to this gun, made no difference

3.  Chamber that first round, then manually eject it and see if you get a 1 off 8 in the same group pattern?-- I haven't tried this (I will try it) but I have manually ejected the first round a few times to look for bullet damage (there was none)

4.  When unloaded, but with slide forward, can you move the barrel around in the slide up front or push the chamber end around in the slide at the ejection port?-- No, barrel locks up tight & looks to be the same height in the slide as after firing a few rounds.

[Grendel]

I have to say: 'It's probably you'.

Anticipating recoil.

[GeneticallySwiss]

So these first, errant shots are always cold bore shots?


GS

[Cujo99]

So these first, errant shots are always cold bore shots?

Yes, always cold bore, at least as far as I know.  (good point)

I guess I better put the first shot & following shots over my chronograph to see if the first shot stands out as far as velocity is concerned.

I usually don't clean my guns until I store but will sometimes run a patch/jag/brush  through the bore at 500 rounds or so. This gun only has about 700 rounds through it (since I got it), I cleaned it after buying (previous owner only put 20 rounds through it). I did a quick bore clean  at around 500 rounds. Barrel looked good (no lead or copper at last cleaning).

One thing that I forgot to mention above is: this P 09 likes 115 bullets better than 124 or 147. I usually shoot 147 but had to switch to 115 in this gun to get groups under 2" at 25 yards (except first shot). But this is just a quick observation as I didn't do any load work-ups for 147 in this gun, just shot what I have worked up for my other CZ's.   

[M1A4ME]

The only other thing I can offer is a change in grip between the first shot and the rest.  If you change they position/grip, grip force, move your finger position on the trigger, it can affect POI.  I've seen it the most with a rifle but it can do it with a pistol, too.

I chuckled when I saw your comment about 115 grain shooting so good.

I haven't found a good shooting 147 grain load yet for my CZ 9MM pistols.

On the other hand, the 115's are awesome.

I've not really messed with 124's in a 9.  Mostly used them in .357 SIG.  I'm about to experiment with 124's though as a certain M&P I bought awhile back seems to prefer that Winchester 124 grain FMJ NATO load (for smaller groups) over everything else.  The same ammo that starts to make the M&P look like it knows what it's doing doesn't do nearly as well in my P01 (haven't shot any in the P09 or CZ85 yet.)

[DOC 1500]

2.  Do some dry firing first, before you shoot for groups?--I haven't dry fired first but have used a different gun first then switched to this gun, made no difference

In this statement are you saying that with a different gun you put them 4 inches high and 2 in left also ?
If that is the case then it's you not to gun.

[Joe L]

With gun unloaded and magazine out, hold the front end of the slide in a vise, gun level and horizontal, normal shooting orientation.  Insert a 1/4" aluminum or brass rod in to the barrel to use as a lever and try to wiggle the barrel up and down as felt at the chamber end.  You can put a dial indicator on the chamber end of the barrel to measure any movement.  I've seen up to 0.008" movement at the chamber end produce the same first shot results.  (Note--I am NOT a gunsmith!) 

Compare measurement with this gun to one that shoots well.  Any significant difference, try a different front block in the frame is all I know to suggest. 

If you can't change the front block, use the heaviest recoil spring that will still cycle with your ammo and sling shot the slide very carefully--do not follow or ride the slide at all, release it from the full recoil position when chambering the first round, and do so with the gun level, not aimed up. 

Hope you get it fixed or figured out.  The only CZ I have that is a little loose is a P-10C.  Good enough for a service gun still, but not good enough for a bullseye match.  All the rest are bullseye match quality lock ups:  P-10F, P-10S, P-07, two P-09's.

Joe

[rdcinhou]

I'm curious...are you taking your first shot DA and then SA thereafter?

[Cujo99]

2.  Do some dry firing first, before you shoot for groups?--I haven't dry fired first but have used a different gun first then switched to this gun, made no difference

In this statement are you saying that with a different gun you put them 4 inches high and 2 in left also ?
If that is the case then it's you not to gun.

No, in that statement  I am saying that (IF)  I shoot a different  gun  first  (my P07 9mm or my P07 .40) all the bullets from those guns go POI to POA (or within 2" or so at 25 yards) , with no decisive first shot variance.

 On all my other CZ guns, Shadow, coupel of  CZ 75's, SP 01 couple of P 07's none have that first shot high left. Only my P 09 shows the high left first shot. 

I get the same high left first shot shooting off-hand as shooting off a solid sand bag only the sand bag shots are easier to define as the main group is smaller & less ragged.

Even the factory target that came with the P 09 gun shows one shot high left but not neatly as high left as I am getting, plus I can't say if the high left on the factory target was 1st shot.

I am a long time pistol shooter so can usually call my shots as I track my sights when the shot breaks.

If I break a bad shot (it happens) I can usually call where that shot is going to be on the target before I use my glass  or walk down to look at the target.

[Cujo99]

  I'm curious...are you taking your first shot DA and then SA thereafter?

No, as I mentioned in my first post all shots are single action.

[Cujo99]

With gun unloaded and magazine out, hold the front end of the slide in a vise, gun level and horizontal, normal shooting orientation.  Insert a 1/4" aluminum or brass rod in to the barrel to use as a lever and try to wiggle the barrel up and down as felt at the chamber end.  You can put a dial indicator on the chamber end of the barrel to measure any movement.  I've seen up to 0.008" movement at the chamber end produce the same first shot results.  (Note--I am NOT a gunsmith!) 

Compare measurement with this gun to one that shoots well.  Any significant difference, try a different front block in the frame is all I know to suggest. 

If you can't change the front block, use the heaviest recoil spring that will still cycle with your ammo and sling shot the slide very carefully--do not follow or ride the slide at all, release it from the full recoil position when chambering the first round, and do so with the gun level, not aimed up. 

Hope you get it fixed or figured out.  The only CZ I have that is a little loose is a P-10C.  Good enough for a service gun still, but not good enough for a bullseye match.  All the rest are bullseye match quality lock ups:  P-10F, P-10S, P-07, two P-09's.

Good thought, I have used a fiberglass rod (round tent stake) to basically do what you suggested when I was first looking for the problem but that rod had a lot of compliancy so I was just basically looking for a loose lock-up.   (I couldn't really find any loose lock up but I was only looking for major movement not a few thousandths of movement).

I have a long brass .38 range rod (I will have to see if it will fit the 9mm bore), I do have a short brass 9mm range rod but it is way too short to put a proper bending mode on the barrel.

I guess I will have to make a longer brass 9mm range rod (I should have one anyhow so I will do that after this weekend when  all the family leaves me alone)

I have tried different ways of chambering the first round with slingshot, slide release, gentle release (follow) with holding the gun level (shooting orientation)  & also holding muzzle-up with no discernable difference in first shot out-of-group.

I made up some dummy rounds with brand new brass yesterday that I am going to use to  hand chamber a round then use my depth mike to compare barrel lock-up height in the slide to barrel height after firing a live round  (I have looked at this many times & it looks the same but as of yet I haven't precision measured it).

[rdcinhou]

  I'm curious...are you taking your first shot DA and then SA thereafter?

No, as I mentioned in my first post all shots are single action.

My apologies for not picking up on that.

Another thought...when you "rack" your 1st round do you let the recoil spring "slingshot" the round into battery or do you push the slide forward by hand?

[Cujo99]

 
Another thought...when you "rack" your 1st round do you let the recoil spring "slingshot" the round into battery or do you push the slide forward by hand?

Yes, yes, & yes-- I have tried all ways-- easy, slingshot, slide release, gun level, gun pointed up, gun pointed down with no change in first round impact.