Errant first shot_ P09_9mm

[M1A4ME]

Have you shot it left handed (weak hand) or with both hands?

Have you tried shooting that first shot, putting the pistol down on the bench, picking it up, firing shot #2, laying down, picking it up for shot #3 and continuing that for the remaining 7 shots?

Going back to that change in grip/trigger finger placement on that pistol.

[Cujo99]

Have you shot it left handed (weak hand) or with both hands?-- Both hands, strong hand make no difference.

Have you tried shooting that first shot, putting the pistol down on the bench, picking it up, firing shot #2, laying down, picking it up for shot #3 and continuing that for the remaining 7 shots?-- Not exactly but have shot first shot, laid gun down to go look at target, then picked gun back up & continued through remainder of magazine.

Going back to that change in grip/trigger finger placement on that pistol.-- No, I change nothing, I use the same grip & finger placement on all my CZ's, this P09 is the only one with the errant first round, all other CZ's (many) don't show any first round issues.

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

These guns are all service grade but the great thing about CZ's is they tend have fantastic accuracy by design sometimes much better than guns costing 2-3 times as much but that doesn't mean EVERY gun they make will be a tack driver and there are bound to be some from time to time that just are not as accurate as others.
In the grand scheme of things accuracy even off by that much @25 yds. is still acceptable by service standards.
All that said there is certainly the possibility of a slight lock-up issue or even a temp related issue. I'd shoot the first round and let the gun completely cool back to ambient temperature then fire follow up rounds in the same manner and see how it behaves. If every round fired from a cool barrel lands off from the intended poa/poi then I'd think the barrel is the problem and it's maybe temperature related. How does the gun perform at more normal defensive ranges?

[Cujo99]

These guns are all service grade but the great thing about CZ's is they tend have fantastic accuracy by design sometimes much better than guns costing 2-3 times as much but that doesn't mean EVERY gun they make will be a tack driver and there are bound to be some from time to time that just are not as accurate as others.
In the grand scheme of things accuracy even off by that much @25 yds. is still acceptable by service standards.
All that said there is certainly the possibility of a slight lock-up issue or even a temp related issue. I'd shoot the first round and let the gun completely cool back to ambient temperature then fire follow up rounds in the same manner and see how it behaves. If every round fired from a cool barrel lands off from the intended poa/poi then I'd think the barrel is the problem and it's maybe temperature related. How does the gun perform at more normal defensive ranges?

That is within my normal defensive range practice distance & that kind of first shot accuracy in not acceptable as it precludes a  first shot headshot from safe cover. My other CZ guns don't do this.

I do keep thinking about the barrel being the possible problem. I am going to see if the P09 barrel will fit my P07 with decent lock-up, if so that should point to, or eliminate the barrel.

[eastman]

any chance of borrowing a P-09 upper locally and trying that on your frame?

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

These guns are all service grade but the great thing about CZ's is they tend have fantastic accuracy by design sometimes much better than guns costing 2-3 times as much but that doesn't mean EVERY gun they make will be a tack driver and there are bound to be some from time to time that just are not as accurate as others.
In the grand scheme of things accuracy even off by that much @25 yds. is still acceptable by service standards.
All that said there is certainly the possibility of a slight lock-up issue or even a temp related issue. I'd shoot the first round and let the gun completely cool back to ambient temperature then fire follow up rounds in the same manner and see how it behaves. If every round fired from a cool barrel lands off from the intended poa/poi then I'd think the barrel is the problem and it's maybe temperature related. How does the gun perform at more normal defensive ranges?

That is within my normal defensive range practice distance & that kind of first shot accuracy in not acceptable as it precludes a  first shot headshot from safe cover. My other CZ guns don't do this.

I do keep thinking about the barrel being the possible problem. I am going to see if the P09 barrel will fit my P07 with decent lock-up, if so that should point to, or eliminate the barrel.

Well by military or law enforcement standards that's good accuracy at 25 yds since they won't be teaching head shots at that distance but I get it that you want consistency from the gun. I would want it better as well. I replaced a Sig M11 A1 barrel recently because it would fail to eject about once every 400 rounds. New barrel with over 2000 rounds and no failures. I like things that run 100% too.

[Walt Sherrill]

Cujo99:  I didn't see it mentioned -- maybe I just read past it  -- but are you starting from hammer down or from cocked & locked? 

The DA/SA transition can be a killer with some guns, and while you seem to have taken steps to move things along, it may take something very simple to make that first shot hit closer to where you want it to hit.   

That  something may be little more than a lighter hammer spring (but one that still ignites the primers.)   I infer that you aren't having this type of problem with others guns,  It MAY be the gun and not the shooter -- particularly if the trigger on your P-09 is different than most of your other guns.

If you're doing a DA first shot, you may be having to position your trigger finger on the trigger in a way that is great for the following shots but not for the first shot. (CZ typically have LONG DA trigger pulls). 

If you're doing DA first shots, try shooting only FIRST shots and see how you do -- i.e., decock before each shot.  And keep doing it until you find your shots hitting where you want.   Then switch back to DA/SA and see if you've lost that wandering first whot.

[Steve Menegon]

Are the primer strikes on the first shot the same as the follow up shots?8

[Cujo99]

Cujo99:  I didn't see it mentioned -- maybe I just read past it  -- but are you starting from hammer down or from cocked & locked? 

You read past it twice as it was stated in 2 different posts.

[Cujo99]

Are the primer strikes on the first shot the same as the follow up shots?8

Best I can tell they all look the same, I even put some red sharpie on the 1st round so I could tell it from the others. They all have nice deep firing pin indents.

All shots in the magazine passed my go-to ignition integrity  test (I do this on any gun that I have worked on &  intend to carry).
That is to load a full  magazine with CCI 450 primed rounds. Those 450 primers are thick & hard so it takes a real  good strong firing pin hit to ignite them.
 My first test magazine of CCI 450  primed rounds all fired double action.
 My second  test magazine of CCI 450  primed rounds all fired single action. (this is a very difficult test to pass in double action with a lighter hammer spring in a hammer fired gun)

[Cujo99]

I think I am making some progress (hopefully)___

Yesterday morning I took my digital caliper out to my range then measured slide to barrel hood depth after a manual slide drop then after first fired round. I got some discrepancy in the measurements with manual dropped slide showing .005"-.006" difference. (caliper isn't the best tool for this measurement though)

So with a little more investigation it looked like the slide face where the rear of the round slides up was fairly rough. So I lightly sanded then polished that slide face (not mirror as I didn't want to remove much metal) just tidied up the rough surface a bit).

My grandson was visiting (he loves to shoot) & I have a bunch of old NATO 9mm (real strong stuff) so I let him shoot about 350 rounds of that hot stuff (he loves it, I hate it myself).

This morning I shot one magazine of rounds off a sand bag & they all seemed to go into  the same group (sort of as it was pretty ragged group but just under 2" @25 yards. Unfortunately I don't know where the first shot went in the group but it definitely wasn't way high left.

This was just a sample of one magazine so time will tell but it sort of looks promising anyhow. 

 

[Walt Sherrill]

You read past it twice as it was stated in 2 different posts.

My apologies.   (There was almost 50 posts in this discussion, and I was late to the game, and obviously missed your comment in the first post -- and the restatement later.)  I kept looking for other, meatier comments.

I've experienced a pretty consistent difference in points of impact between a manually chambered first shot and the action-chambered following rounds with a number of different guns, but generally attributed at least some (maybe most) of the observed differences to the shooter (me) and my inability to always master the DA/SA transition.  I've never experienced that with SA starts, so probably wasn't reading as closely as I should have read.

You've apparently found (and may have corrected, if only by shooting more potent NATO ammo, and bit of judicious sanding) a subtle imperfection in the action (slide/barrel fit maybe in the breech face) made obvious when manually chambering the first round.  It seems that the difference in force by the closing slide wasdifferent enough to affect lockup.   It may be that your sanding and the hotter NATO rounds helped smooth up the imperfection(s).

[DOC 1500]

I think I am making some progress (hopefully)___

So with a little more investigation it looked like the slide face where the rear of the round slides up was fairly rough. So I lightly sanded then polished that slide face (not mirror as I didn't want to remove much metal) just tidied up the rough surface a bit).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you're talking about the bottom side of the firing pin Channel that rubs on the next round in the magazine.
That area should always be stoned and Polished to a mirror finish. If not done just causes a lot of resistance to the slide, and in this case enough resistance that the slide does not lock up properly.

[GeneticallySwiss]

I think I am making some progress (hopefully)___

Yesterday morning I took my digital caliper out to my range then measured slide to barrel hood depth after a manual slide drop then after first fired round. I got some discrepancy in the measurements with manual dropped slide showing .005"-.006" difference. (caliper isn't the best tool for this measurement though)

So with a little more investigation it looked like the slide face where the rear of the round slides up was fairly rough. So I lightly sanded then polished that slide face (not mirror as I didn't want to remove much metal) just tidied up the rough surface a bit).

My grandson was visiting (he loves to shoot) & I have a bunch of old NATO 9mm (real strong stuff) so I let him shoot about 350 rounds of that hot stuff (he loves it, I hate it myself).

This morning I shot one magazine of rounds off a sand bag & they all seemed to go into  the same group (sort of as it was pretty ragged group but just under 2" @25 yards. Unfortunately I don't know where the first shot went in the group but it definitely wasn't way high left.

This was just a sample of one magazine so time will tell but it sort of looks promising anyhow.

Cujo,

While I’m happy you are finding improvements, it does seem curious to me why such a “fix”, as described, would have cured an anomaly that occurred only on your first round fired.

So it’s always the first round?  If this is so let’s think about this.  What is different about anyones first shot?

This assumes there has been no changes to the firearm, ammunition or significant change in shooting position/stance from first shot to follow on shots.

Weapon

- Cold bore (previously discussed)
- Chambering procedure is vastly different than follow on shots

Shooter

- First shot CAN be a flyer (potential, and slight flinch anticipating recoil), I have experienced this, then I settle in
- shooting position (again, getting settled in)
- Some external influence

Other than the above, I got nothing.  Good luck.


GS

[Cujo99]

- Chambering procedure is vastly different than follow on shots

I don't shoot on Sunday's so nothing to report today.

It seems to be pointing to  - Chambering procedure is vastly different than follow on shots but this hasn't been confirmed yet. Will do another test string tomorrow if weather holds.

I have been shooting for well over 50 years so  know full well what a flinch feels like & what it can do to a shot, but after all these years I have learned to  track my sights so know where my sight is at on the target at shot break.  I can almost always call a miss or out of group shot before even looking at the target.

I am getting almost the exact same out-of-group on first shot shooting off-hand as I do  when gun is sand bagged down tight (this alone points to gun not shooter).

I have also shot my P07 9mm & P07 .40 prior to shooting this P09 & I get no first shot flier with either of those so again this points away from shooter involvement.

I shoot every day except Sunday's (weather permitting) so it shouldn't take long to see if the breach face polishing helped the problem.