Author Topic: Clean burning factory 9mm ammunition  (Read 8204 times)

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Offline boss281

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Clean burning factory 9mm ammunition
« on: January 01, 2020, 08:42:57 AM »
Years ago I was a fan of Winchester 124g NATO 9mm ammo, as I found it very accurate in my Colt 9mm AR platforms and occasional shoots in my pistols.  But the stuff always left the firearms filthy even after shooting a magazine or two, and frankly, got me in the habit of just giving my collection a good cleaning after every range session.  I don't mind it, and it's now just habit.

With retirement and competition, I'm shooting a lot more, and have been looking for recommendations on "clean" burning ammo.  I keep hearing Fiocchi and S&B are "clean", but I shot fifty rounds of each through my CZ Scorpion (FDE) on separate range sessions and was floored by the amount of residue. My CZ pistols suffered the same fate. I can't say it was any different that the Winchester NATO rounds. After the recent session, I actually set aside several hours for each gun, the level of filth being so high.  That CZ Scorpion chamber is a pain to clean!

I've also tried Winchester WinClean factory ammo in 114, 124 and 147, and while definitely a cleaner burning round, accuracy isn't as consistent as I'd like, and I've had failure to feed issues from time to time. It also seems to be hard to get occasionally.

Just curious, as we go into the new year, if any recent experiences with factory ammo have yielded acceptable burn, reliability and accuracy in hand.  Thanks in advance.
Scorpion Evo S1 Carbine and Pistol, 75BD, SP-01 Tactical CGW Pro Kit, P-01 CGW Defensive Carry Kit, P-07, P-09

Offline Rmach

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Re: Clean burning factory 9mm ammunition
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2020, 10:43:24 AM »
There's no such thing as consistent clean burning 9mm factory ammo.  The same manufacturer can produce batches that run cleaner, then a month later that same brand (different batch) runs filthy.  That's been my experience.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Clean burning factory 9mm ammunition
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2020, 06:58:26 PM »
There's no such thing as consistent clean burning 9mm factory ammo.  The same manufacturer can produce batches that run cleaner, then a month later that same brand (different batch) runs filthy.  That's been my experience.

This is true. They buy a railroad car full of powder, but when it's almost used up they start accepting bids on the next. It could be from any powder maker. It could be a "deal" because it was a batch they can't sell to the public. Makers don't care because they know if their price is the lowest, then people will buy it. Factory ammo has turned into a cut-throat game of who can make it cheaper.
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Offline jurek

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Re: Clean burning factory 9mm ammunition
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2020, 07:10:25 PM »
Boss281, you have mentioned Fiocchi and S&B... which definitely are the cleanest ammo. I'm using these two in 90% (mostly Fiocchi) and I've seen different amount of residue during past year shooting the same ammo and the same amount of rounds.
I've never cared about this, but once I've seen this thread I've realized that you are right. The same ammo - different cleaning  :o during the year... The same reliability and accuracy, different burn.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Clean burning factory 9mm ammunition
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2020, 07:14:30 PM »
With retirement and competition, I'm shooting a lot more, and have been looking for recommendations on "clean" burning ammo. 


If you're competing, then you not only want clean burning, but you also want accurate and inexpensive. The only way you can do that is to reload your own ammo with components you pick. There's a persistent internet myth out there that you can't load ammo as cheaply as the factories. That's a lie. I'm presently loading 9mm at about $5.10 per 50. And my group sizes are half what yours are because my ammo is precisely tuned to my gun and uses the VERY BEST components available.

Yes, there is an initial start up cost, but there is also a significant payback that typically pays for all the equipment in under one year. Let that sink in. By next Christmas, your equipment will have totally paid for itself.

If you want to compete successfully, then you really need to read this: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=58939.0

Hope this helps.
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Offline boss281

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Re: Clean burning factory 9mm ammunition
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2020, 07:14:56 PM »
Boss281, you have mentioned Fiocchi and S&B... which definitely are the cleanest ammo. I'm using these two in 90% (mostly Fiocchi) and I've seen different amount of residue during past year shooting the same ammo and the same amount of rounds.
I've never cared about this, but once I've seen this thread I've realized that you are right. The same ammo - different cleaning  :o during the year... The same reliability and accuracy, different burn.
Well that makes me feel better, I am not going nuts! That said, I enjoyed cleaning the Scorpion and getting it ready for Sunday's Steel Challenge match. I'll use the S&B 124g. I didn't have any flyers when I tested a box so dirty or not it's accurate.
John
Scorpion Evo S1 Carbine and Pistol, 75BD, SP-01 Tactical CGW Pro Kit, P-01 CGW Defensive Carry Kit, P-07, P-09

Offline boss281

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Re: Clean burning factory 9mm ammunition
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2020, 07:19:33 PM »
With retirement and competition, I'm shooting a lot more, and have been looking for recommendations on "clean" burning ammo. 


If you're competing, then you not only want clean burning, but you also want accurate and inexpensive. The only way you can do that is to reload your own ammo with components you pick. There's a persistent internet myth out there that you can't load ammo as cheaply as the factories. That's a lie. I'm presently loading 9mm at about $5.10 per 50. And my group sizes are half what yours are because my ammo is precisely tuned to my gun and uses the VERY BEST components available.

Yes, there is an initial start up cost, but there is also a significant payback that typically pays for all the equipment in under one year. Let that sink in. By next Christmas, your equipment will have totally paid for itself.

If you want to compete successfully, then you really need to read this: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=58939.0

Hope this helps.
Funny, I have been thinking about reloading all day while I cleaned the firearms. The money isn't an issue, its more a time thing (retirement is busy as heck). But the link looks really helpful. I think you have pushed me past that tipping point. Thank you...
Scorpion Evo S1 Carbine and Pistol, 75BD, SP-01 Tactical CGW Pro Kit, P-01 CGW Defensive Carry Kit, P-07, P-09

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Clean burning factory 9mm ammunition
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2020, 10:03:53 PM »
Funny, I have been thinking about reloading all day while I cleaned the firearms. The money isn't an issue, its more a time thing (retirement is busy as heck). But the link looks really helpful. I think you have pushed me past that tipping point. Thank you...


This may sound funny, but I'm not here to persuade you to do anything you're not comfortable with. Our job is to dispel rumors and myths, and hopefully become a trusted source where you can go and ask questions. In other words, become your resource.

You seem to have the need for volume. You seem to be a discriminating shooter. (By that I mean you shoot enough to be able to tell good ammo from bad.) And right now you have a need that factory loads can't answer.

There must be 20-30 regular reloaders reading this board, and I'm here to tell you we ALL started in the exact same place. And none of us would ever consider going back to factory ammo.

And too, I got to tell you, this is an excellent time to consider your options because everything associated with reloading is at the lowest price in maybe 6-8 years. We're all hitting the sales while the prices are low and the sources are plentiful.


The money isn't an issue, its more a time thing (retirement is busy as heck).


Answer to first question: Time
• Time is not really a problem, you'll simply need a more advanced press... what we call a "progressive". One with more features, which will speed things up by making your job easier. With one of these you can easily load 300-500 rounds in under 2 hours.

• Actually, if you only have 30-60 minutes a day, that's a much better schedule. You can easily break your process down into small pieces that you do on odd days, and then load on Friday night what you'll need during the weekend. Once a month you'll sit down and re-order supplies. Web based ordering, and you'll be using the same suppliers over and over. So it's easy to get a routine going. And if a birthday or anniversary comes up, it's not a big deal because you'll develop an inventory after a couple of months.

Purely as an example... I'm retired too. I manage 4 youth shotgun teams at my GC, and teach English to new citizens, so my schedule is also packed. Tonight I cleaned about 800 pieces of brass by dumping them into a tumbler connected to a timer. About 15 minutes to put them in. Awhile later I took 30 min to shake them out in a sieve to separate the brass from the media, spray some lube on them, and pour them into a Folgers container. Total time ~45 minutes. I'll load about 200 of them next week sometime.

9/10 of my shooting is done with 2 interchangeable bullets which I buy 3000 at a time. I buy 2 brands of primers, which are purchased 5000 at a time. One pound of powder reloads about 1500 rounds. I try to buy 4lb and 8lb cans. Believe me when I say the only one huffing and puffing around here is the UPS man !

Hope this helps.
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Offline boss281

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Re: Clean burning factory 9mm ammunition
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2020, 10:45:42 PM »
Well, I can start with reading and collecting my brass. I'm usually shooting twice a week so it shouldn't take all that long to collect a nice bit.

An unexpected journey...
Scorpion Evo S1 Carbine and Pistol, 75BD, SP-01 Tactical CGW Pro Kit, P-01 CGW Defensive Carry Kit, P-07, P-09

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Clean burning factory 9mm ammunition
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2020, 08:02:51 AM »
Well, I can start with reading and collecting my brass. I'm usually shooting twice a week so it shouldn't take all that long to collect a nice bit.

An unexpected journey...

An unexpected option to investigate.

• I asked my church to save all the empty Folgers coffee containers. They're rugged, close tightly and stack nicely. But there are 100 other plastic containers that will do the exact same thing. Maybe you just want to go to Walmart and buy 6 matching tubs. Something that holds 600-1000 pieces of brass seems about perfect.

• Then start collecting 9mm brass; no steel and no aluminum. Most any shape or color is OK. About half the time, brass that's been on the ground long enough to turn dark chocolate brown may not be usable. But if it shows any "brassy" color at all, then it's typically OK.
- While collecting I throw brass into one of those mesh laundry bags. As the bag shakes, the dirt, sand and pebbles return to the ground.
- There's always a bored youngster at matches. I offer them $2 to collect the brass. That's always a "win-win".
- If you'll mention it at practice ranges, strangers are always glad to pick up their own brass and bring it to you. People who wouldn't give you $3 will be all smiles to hand over $25 in brass.
- If you have a LEO friend, they'll bring you several thousand from the police range.

The point is, there are a million ways to collect 9mm brass and you'll want to start. You'll need 2000-3000 pieces. Sounds like a lot, but you'll have that much or more within 3 weeks.

• Lastly I want you to continue your investigations and education. There's a lot of good info out there, but there's also a lot of BAD info out there too. So limit your reading to this forum since it's CZ specific. Start with the Stickies at the top of the forum. If you want to see videos, the one place I can recommend is Ultimate Reloader.Com . There is a huge Learning Curve, but we can get you over that without you feeling like you're 'drinking from a fire hose'.

• You'll have questions. Please ask.

 ;)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2020, 08:07:28 AM by Wobbly »
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Offline Wobbly

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Re: Clean burning factory 9mm ammunition
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2020, 08:18:14 AM »
And how about placing your general location in your profile. You may live near one of us.

 ;)
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Offline boss281

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Re: Clean burning factory 9mm ammunition
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2020, 10:52:10 AM »
And how about placing your general location in your profile. You may live near one of us.

 ;)

Done. I'm in north central Maryland...
Scorpion Evo S1 Carbine and Pistol, 75BD, SP-01 Tactical CGW Pro Kit, P-01 CGW Defensive Carry Kit, P-07, P-09

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: Clean burning factory 9mm ammunition
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2020, 01:40:26 PM »
So far the cleanest burning factory ammo I've shot is Federal.  My CZ pistols seem to like the 115 grain FMJ cheap stuff that Walmart used to sell.

Yes, Winchester is nasty.  Found that out when I bought some to try in my first 9MM AR15.

One more thing, the blow back guns get dirtier than the pistols.  The blow back guns allow the bolt to move rearward sooner than the pistols (that's why I see a little flash of fire sometimes out of the ejection port and why the brass is way dirtier from the blowback guns than the regular pistols.  And the blow back gun itself is dirty as can be.  First time I ran that 9MM AR I was amazed at how much powder residue was all over the right side of the upper and lower receivers.

The brass shot in a pistol goes through 4 hrs. in the vibratory cleaner with crushed walnut shells and comes out nice and shiny.  The brass shot through a blowback operated fire arm goes through 4 hrs. in the cleaner and comes out looking like it spend 15 minutes there.  I've run some up to 8 or 10 hrs. and still have the burnt powder stains on the sides of the brass.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline Dan_69GTX

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Re: Clean burning factory 9mm ammunition
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2020, 01:52:32 PM »
Boss281 - you might not be too far from this place:

Rsp Gun Shop
54 Forever Green Dr, Falling Waters, WV, 25419, US
(304) 274-6171

They are a Dillion dealer, have good pricing, have a LARGE selection of powder, etc.

If you buy a press there you will leave with a fully working and setup press.  Very helpful folks!

I've bought various 1lb containers of powder there to try as an assortment.  They also sell 4 and 8 lbs.

One time I got delayed and I knew I wasn't going to get there before they closed, called them and they were willing to wait for me.

I know several folks at competitions I go to that recommend them too.


What sort of competitions do you do?


When I started to reload this forum was AMAZING in the help they gave!  (and still is!)
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Offline boss281

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Re: Clean burning factory 9mm ammunition
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2020, 02:23:20 PM »
Boss281 - you might not be too far from this place:

Rsp Gun Shop
54 Forever Green Dr, Falling Waters, WV, 25419, US
(304) 274-6171

They are a Dillion dealer, have good pricing, have a LARGE selection of powder, etc.

If you buy a press there you will leave with a fully working and setup press.  Very helpful folks!

I've bought various 1lb containers of powder there to try as an assortment.  They also sell 4 and 8 lbs.

One time I got delayed and I knew I wasn't going to get there before they closed, called them and they were willing to wait for me.

I know several folks at competitions I go to that recommend them too.


What sort of competitions do you do?


When I started to reload this forum was AMAZING in the help they gave!  (and still is!)

Hey Dan, that's just about an hour and some change from me, an easy drive.

Years ago I used to compete pistol regularly, then work just go in the way.  When PCCs were provisional in USPSA, I shot several unsanctioned matches and had fun, but again, work got in the way. Same with Steel shoots.  I retired recently PLUS my local GC, the Associated Gun Clubs of Baltimore in Carroll County, has opened up several brand new action bays for Steel, IDPA and 2/3 Gun. With my eye sight, using a PCC with red dot is a no brainer, and I'm getting my first slide milled on my SP-01T as we speak. Once I feel competent, especially bringing up the sight on the draw and presentation on the first target, I'll sign up for IDPA.  Eventually, classification yada yada.  It's good to have time for everything I want to do across all my hobbies...
Scorpion Evo S1 Carbine and Pistol, 75BD, SP-01 Tactical CGW Pro Kit, P-01 CGW Defensive Carry Kit, P-07, P-09