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Author Topic: P-09 barrel, clean enough?  (Read 29855 times)

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Offline Joe L

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #120 on: May 03, 2020, 08:12:35 PM »
Yep, saw that picture, thanks. 
Joe
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CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline CCWLearner

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #121 on: May 03, 2020, 10:37:02 PM »
It looks to me like this barrel cleaned up pretty good.  I put it back in my P-07 and hope to take it to the range in the next week or two.





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Offline M1A4ME

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #122 on: May 04, 2020, 07:22:15 AM »
On the subject of lead bullets vs. bullets with some type of coating.

I can't say this is a fact, but it's something I remember reading a few years back when I was loading some lead bullets for my M1917.

The article said if you were going to shoot lead bullets you needed to do a very, very good cleaning job on the barrel to remove all traces of copper.  Then shoot some lead, examine the barrel, clean it well, and shoot more lead.  That had to do, I think, with first removing things that might cause increased leading/decreased accuracy and then conditioning the bore by shooting only lead bullets after that.  You weren't supposed to shoot lead one range trip and jacketed/plated bullets the next.

I can't say if that was a factual statement/practice or if it applies in any way to pistol/revolver barrels.  I do know that I used to shoot Thunderbolts in my Win. M52B and Ruger Mk1 5.5" bull barrel and never had issues cleaning them afterwards.  I did try a few Vipers, Yellow Jackets and Stingers and nothing shot as good as the lead bullets, so I stuck with the Thunderbolts.

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I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline Joe L

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #123 on: May 05, 2020, 08:13:49 AM »
Well, I'm done with the P-10F rough groove barrel.  I've soaked it for a week and haven't made a dent in the roughness, so it is the original rifling machining, not carbon.  Looks bad, shoots great.  I think the rough spots will tear in to the jacketing on the bullets and smooth over pretty quickly.  On top of that will be some carbon, which I will definitely remove after shooting, but I am not going to try to get the copper out again.  No point in it if it just fills in the rough spots.  I think. 

Video of what the barrel looked like this morning will finish uploading and be viewable by about 7:20am CDT. 

https://youtu.be/GeTIpsYwfCI


I'm going to shoot the .308 rifle today if it isn't raining.  More tonight.  The .308 bore looks fine--some copper, just a little carbon in spots, no pitting.  Because I cleaned it after shooting it, nearly every time I took it out.  It was always a  big deal for me to go shoot as few as 20 rounds through that rifle.

Joe
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CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline Vinny

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #124 on: May 05, 2020, 02:06:23 PM »
Quote from: M1A4ME on May 04, 2020, 07:22:15 AM
On the subject of lead bullets vs. bullets with some type of coating.

I can't say this is a fact, but it's something I remember reading a few years back when I was loading some lead bullets for my M1917.

The article said if you were going to shoot lead bullets you needed to do a very, very good cleaning job on the barrel to remove all traces of copper.  Then shoot some lead, examine the barrel, clean it well, and shoot more lead.  That had to do, I think, with first removing things that might cause increased leading/decreased accuracy and then conditioning the bore by shooting only lead bullets after that.  You weren't supposed to shoot lead one range trip and jacketed/plated bullets the next.

I can't say if that was a factual statement/practice or if it applies in any way to pistol/revolver barrels.  I do know that I used to shoot Thunderbolts in my Win. M52B and Ruger Mk1 5.5" bull barrel and never had issues cleaning them afterwards.  I did try a few Vipers, Yellow Jackets and Stingers and nothing shot as good as the lead bullets, so I stuck with the Thunderbolts.
I think you're right. Mixing lead and copper bullets is a bad recipe.
I actually did the opposite. I found greater accuracy (at least for me-YMMV) with CCI Copper Mini-Mags and copper-coated HV seems to cycle my 22LR pistols more reliably. I run 'em a little wet and almost never have any failures of any kind in thousands of rounds, which I suppose is rare for rim-fires.
I traded my Ruger MK III that had run a lead-copper mix; and ONLY run copper HV in my trade-up MK IV Target. Ditto for my Buckmark Hunter. Not Super HV; but 40gr at 1235fps or 36gr at 1280fps. My S&W Victory was less fussy and I used up my remaining SV rounds in it. And I purchased a 'plinker' Ruger SR22 to get rid of the rest of my lead bullets, including those nasty shrapnel producing Thunderbolts which were the only 22 I could find during the last ammo drought. Cleaned it up good and sold it.  ::)
Sorry if I've drifted off topic.  Yeah, mixing lead and copper bullets. NOT
« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 02:10:37 PM by Vinny »
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Offline CCWLearner

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #125 on: May 05, 2020, 04:37:02 PM »
Mixing lead and copper rounds in my 10/22 may have been what led to my barrel obstruction mentioned earlier in the thread.  Now that I have this 50 dollar bore scope I am planning to have a close look at that barrel as my next project.  Then I will observe it, before and after shooting different types of ammo, and see what I can determine.
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Offline briang2ad

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #126 on: May 05, 2020, 06:55:58 PM »
Quote
Well, I'm done with the P-10F rough groove barrel.  I've soaked it for a week and haven't made a dent in the roughness, so it is the original rifling machining, not carbon.  Looks bad, shoots great.  I think the rough spots will tear in to the jacketing on the bullets and smooth over pretty quickly.  On top of that will be some carbon, which I will definitely remove after shooting, but I am not going to try to get the copper out again.  No point in it if it just fills in the rough spots.  I think.

Nice posting Joe - very instructive.  Obviously one of the downsides of living in the blessed land of 9mm overload is that manufacturers are churning them out like cheap butter, and CZ is letting the machining go a bit long in tooth, and/or barrel finishing is getting cut short. 

Yes, likely on a pistol it won't be a big deal filling in the rough grooves with copper and you'll shoot accurately.  Over time, it may pit, as moisture accumulates under the copper, but again, in a pistol not a show stopper.
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Offline Vinny

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #127 on: May 05, 2020, 09:13:47 PM »
Thanks Joe for this thread and everyone contributing. I've learned a lot from this post, and confirmed what I learned with the borescope!
Sequence of images below of a SIG P365 barrel:
1.Brand NEW unfired barrel
2.After 4100 rounds and my 'Routine' Hoppe's 9 cleaning with bronze brush and patches - Still showing some carbon and copper streaks
3.After secondary re-soaking 12 hours in Hoppe's, then brush & patch - No Carbon but still some copper
4.After running Tipton felt cleaning pellet with oil & JB Bore Compound 6-8 times - Copper pretty much gone

Bottom Line for me:
*After every range session at least run a patch with CLP, Hoppe's or Ballistol
*Field Strip and do #2 every 200-400 rounds
*Periodically, like maybe end of each season do #3 & #4 followed by oiling and maybe a bore stick before storage.




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Offline jurek

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #128 on: May 05, 2020, 09:34:58 PM »
Quote from: Vinny on May 05, 2020, 09:13:47 PM
1.Brand NEW unfired barrel
4.After running Tipton felt cleaning pellet with oil & JB Bore Compound 6-8 times - Copper pretty much gone

Vinny, your cleaned barrel looks better than unfired one...  :o :D
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Offline Joe L

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #129 on: May 05, 2020, 09:45:47 PM »
Yep, that barrel looks great!

Here is what I think we have to keep in mind.  It is hard to distinguish discoloration from a deposit of material thick enough to actually affect the bullet path or velocity.  This is why I find the on axis view without the 90 degree mirror to be an important tool.  We can see the details with the mirror, but it is easier for me to use the end view to evaluate depth or thickness of a deposit.  A good reflector (patch trimmed for a loose fit on a jag) helps minimize exaggeration in the end view.

My .308 cleaned up this afternoon with just a few patches and solvent after 37 shots.  I may borescope it in the morning and post a video before returning to the range to put another 20 rounds through it. 

Thanks, gentlemen for contributing to this thread and for putting up with me while I undergo re-education.   :) :)

Joe
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CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline Vinny

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #130 on: May 05, 2020, 09:48:59 PM »
Quote from: jurek on May 05, 2020, 09:34:58 PM
Quote from: Vinny on May 05, 2020, 09:13:47 PM
1.Brand NEW unfired barrel
4.After running Tipton felt cleaning pellet with oil & JB Bore Compound 6-8 times - Copper pretty much gone

Vinny, your cleaned barrel looks better than unfired one...  :o :D
HaHa, The trick now is not to get OCD about this and just go shoot 'em.  O0
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Offline Superiorduper

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #131 on: May 06, 2020, 10:39:30 PM »
looks clean enough to defend yourself
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Offline Joe L

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #132 on: May 08, 2020, 06:38:18 PM »
Finally got the P-10F with the rough barrel to the range today.  I think it is OK.  Actually, it is superb, just like my P-09.  I'm still having a tough time coming to grips with how well these polymer guns can be shot.  Take a look at this video...

https://youtu.be/4mPaSAd9zL0

I'll never worry about a UNIFORMLY rough barrel again. 
Joe
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CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline Vinny

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #133 on: May 08, 2020, 08:17:36 PM »
Awesome Shooting Joe!
-Vinny
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Offline Joe L

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Re: P-09 barrel, clean enough?
« Reply #134 on: May 09, 2020, 06:19:04 AM »
Vinny--yep, I had a good day with the plastic service gun.  A very good day. 

I got out the borescope this morning and checked the barrel before cleaning it.  I ran one patch down the barrel to get the loose carbon out so it wouldn't get on the borescope.  Here is the before and after borescope video, confirming that the rough machining fills in very quickly with either powder residue or copper, not sure which yet. 

https://youtu.be/00INHfmdC28

It's the .22 rifle that I can't get to shoot well yet.  I'm thinking the borescope may be of some help with it.  All the pistols shoot fine regardless of what the borescope indicates, so far. 
Joe
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CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR
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