Author Topic: Shadow Hammer Following Issue - Need help  (Read 4152 times)

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Offline joejoe05

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Shadow Hammer Following Issue - Need help
« on: August 09, 2020, 01:03:40 AM »
Hi,

I have a CZ Custom Shadow Target (list of cz custom modifications below) with around 3-4k rounds through it and it just started having an issue today at the range where the hammer follows the slide forward and stops in a slightly cocked position. This was happening on roughly 30% of my shots. I can recreate the issue by pulling the slide back and releasing it; the force of the slide moving forward seems to cause the hammer to drop with it.

I just did a super thorough cleaning (taking the trigger and sear assembly apart) hoping this would fix the problem, but no success.

This is the first time I've had an issue with this pistol so I'm not sure what the process is, but I have a match next Sunday, 8/16, that I was really hoping I could shoot in. Do CZ Custom or CGW have expedited gunsmithing services that would fit my short timeline? I emailed Stuart at CZ Custom but he's away until the middle of next week.

Is this a common issue that I can fix myself with new parts or some type of modifications? Any help/advice would be appreciated.



CZ Custom Shop - CZ 75 SP01 Shadow Target 9mm (SKU 91159)

Custom Version of Shadow
 Fully Adjustable Rear Sight Machine into the slide for Extreme Low Mount
 Fiber Optic Front Sight
CZ Custom SA DA Hammer & Main Spring
 Stainless Steel Guide Rod
Tune Trigger Components (Reduces Single and Double action trigger pull)
Install and Tune 13lb Main Spring and 11lb Recoil Spring
Re profile and Polish Dis connector and associated surfaces.
 Re Profile Slide Stop For Magazine release with Heavy / Long Bullets
 Polish underside of Dis connector rail and break breach face edge

Thin Black Aluminum grips
Includes (3) 18 round 9mm magazines
Reliability Check. Zero Check with Factory Ammunition

Offline joejoe05

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Re: Shadow Hammer Following Issue - Need help
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2020, 02:45:39 AM »
Will the CGW manual safety hammer kit solve my problem? Is it a simple drop in? I’m thinking this might be my best bet in order to make the match next weekend.

https://cajungunworks.com/product/race-hammer-kit/
How will this affect the trigger job that came from the custom shop? Sorry for the noob questions. This is my first firearm and I’ve been shooting a lot, but haven’t required any gunsmithing up until now. I went with the CZ custom version hoping I wouldn’t need to upgrade anything. Thanks.

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Re: Shadow Hammer Following Issue - Need help
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2020, 06:11:47 AM »
Since your gun has been heavily modified by CZC there's no way to begin to know how adding CGW parts will make it react. Everything may be fine and then it may be a disaster. Your best and smartest course is to wait to talk to Stuart and use a different gun for the match or sadly just miss it altogether.

Offline Joe L

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Re: Shadow Hammer Following Issue - Need help
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2020, 06:15:42 AM »
Joejoe05--I have not had this problem myself but I may be able to ask a few questions and possibly help. 

Is it possible that the slide is not going far enough to the rear on recoil to allow the sear to catch the hammer notch on recoil?  If so, you should look for the reason for the limited slide movement.  The usual suspect is the ammo.  Are you using 130 PF min match reloaded ammo or factory box ammo?  What weight bullet?  How far are the casings landing from your feet when shooting standing still?  With a 13 and 11 springs, slow slide movement is not likely to be a problem.  Violently hitting the rear stop is more likely, possibly resulting in some sear bounce.  Lots of folks use the weak springs for run and gun matches, however, but with light reloads, not so much with factory ammo.  You could check this simply by going to a 13 or 15 lb recoil spring, which you could get quickly from wolff springs. 

Have you made any changes to the pistol or to your grip corresponding to the start of the hammer follow?  Any chance you are slowing the slide dragging a thumb on the side of the slide, for example?  Is the slide stop down all the way and not dragging on the slide until the magazine is empty?

It may be that a combination of factory ammo and light springs has shown up as the gun got a little looser from new.  If so, heavier springs or lighter loaded ammo may fix it.  If you are using hot factory ammo, like a self defense round, try some Remington UMC 115 FMJ ammo if you can find it and see if the problem persists.  It is lower velocity than most and you will feel the difference. 

Call CZ Custom on Monday and tell them about the problem and what ammo you are using.  They may send you some springs or at least tell you what to change to IF they think that will solve your problem. 

So, that is all that I can come up with as far as ideas for a problem that I haven't had to deal with myself.  I bet you will some hopefully more helpful suggestions later today. 

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline joejoe05

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Re: Shadow Hammer Following Issue - Need help
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2020, 11:48:52 AM »
I ended up ordering the CGW hammer kit (adjustable sear and hammer) as well as their reach reduction kit (trigger and disconnector) via 2-day shipping last night in case I need it. Really hoping this fixes the issue before my match. Unfortunately, this is the only firearm I own so feeling pretty desperate to get it fixed. I shot in my first USPA match last weekend (and loved it) so this next one would be my second. I have friends joining me this time around and our club won’t have another match for a few weeks due to events, so dying to shoot in this next one. I could send it out for work after this next one since there will be a few weeks without a match but looking for at least a near term solution.

I’m shooting 130 PF loads which I’ve been shooting without issue for over 2k rounds. 124 gr Acme with 3.8 gr or sport pistol. The failure happens even when I manually rack they slide back (without a mag in the pistol) and let it go, causing the slide to fly forward; the hammer also falls forward to the half cocked position. Also, when the hammer is cocked fully, if I apply pressure and push the hammer forward, i can sometimes get it to fall forward. Seems like the hammer to sear engagement is very light.

Thanks for the responses. I’ll call CZ custom Monday morning and see what they think. Ideally I won’t need to install the CGW parts. I got the custom version hoping I wouldn’t need to modify anything and I love how it feels.

I guess I know why most people have multiple guns for uspsa now..
« Last Edit: August 09, 2020, 11:59:31 AM by joejoe05 »

Offline Joe L

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Re: Shadow Hammer Following Issue - Need help
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2020, 12:23:08 PM »
If you can make the hammer go forward by hand after it is cocked, then the CGW hammer and sear should fix your problem.  The existing sear and hammer must be damaged.  The additional information you have provided now makes it easy for me to recommend just replacing the hammer and sear and leaving everything else as is. 

I think you did the right thing by getting the CGW parts on order.  Just go ahead and install them.  You MUST use some loctite on the set screw on the CGW sear to guarantee your safety will work consistently and never shift on you.  Your ammo should work fine with the light springs so my hope is that there is no need for you to do anything other than replace the hammer and sear.  Just do a lot of checks yourself to make sure the safety works perfectly and that the hammer does NOT follow the slide or release with pressure. 

Hope you get it all working, without loosing any parts.  I have some spare springs and stuff to use if I launch one in the shop and can't find it!  Don't ask how I learned to buy parts before I thought I would need them.   

Best of luck to you in the match.  Just be safe.  If the gun isn't proven to function perfectly by next weekend, skip the match, but you knew that. 

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline tdogg

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Re: Shadow Hammer Following Issue - Need help
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2020, 12:57:16 AM »
I'm guessing that the gun has a trigger with an overtravel setscrew in the trigger.  If so, then you need to make sure that the hammer hooks clear the sear when the trigger is pulled and held to the frame.  First verify the gun is empty.  Hold the trigger and rock the hammer back and forth.  If the sear rubs on the hammer hooks you need to back out the trigger overtravel setscrew.  Back it out so that there is a little clearance so when the gun is dirty, it will still have hammer/sear clearance.  CZ Custom discusses this in their FAQ:

https://czcustom.com/knowledge-base/general/how-do-i-adjust-the-over-travel-screw-on-cz-pistols.html

If the hammer hooks contact the sear it will eventually round the sear and/or the hammer hooks and you will run into this issue.  The new CGW parts will also eventually get damaged as well so you need to check this again if you install new CGW parts.  I'd inspect the hammer hooks and sear edge for signs of damage.  I use blue loctite on the trigger setscrew to help hold it in place.  Using loctite is not fool proof and both the adjustment and loctite should be checked on an annual basis (or more frequent if shooting a lot).

Cheers,
Toby
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Offline Joe L

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Re: Shadow Hammer Following Issue - Need help
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2020, 06:46:53 AM »
Toby--I bet you hit it.  I forgot about that possibility as well.  Thanks a bunch.
Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline tdogg

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Re: Shadow Hammer Following Issue - Need help
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2020, 02:04:54 PM »
If it is this issue, I'd like to see a picture of the damage to the hammer and sear interface.  I want to know how much damage is enough to cause the hammer follow.

Cheers,
Toby
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Offline joejoe05

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Re: Shadow Hammer Following Issue - Need help
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2020, 03:00:30 PM »
I checked this and my overtravel screw was not set deep enough to even touch the frame. I suppose it could have backed out over time, but not sure how likely that is. My new sear and hammer come in tomorrow; hoping for a successful install.

Also, thanks for the reminder on loctite. I’ll be sure to use it once everything is in place.

Offline tdogg

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Re: Shadow Hammer Following Issue - Need help
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2020, 03:53:33 PM »
I'd still like to see a picture of the hammer hooks and sear.  I can't think of any other reason for hammer follow.

Cheers,
Toby
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Offline joejoe05

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Re: Shadow Hammer Following Issue - Need help
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2020, 04:28:26 PM »
Below are pictures of my sear and hammer. Are the corners usually sharper than this?

I tried tightening the overtravel screw to the point where the sear and hammer come into contact. Totally makes sense how this would cause the contact points to get rounded over time. Is this the only way this happens? I've never adjusted my overtravel screw (didn't even know what it was). Thanks.






Offline Tok36

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Re: Shadow Hammer Following Issue - Need help
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2020, 04:50:54 PM »
I do not believe that i have seen a better picture of rounded hammer hooks to date. Thank you for the pics.

I am interested to hear the input of other forum members on the pictures.
Will work for CZ pics! (including but not limited to all CZ clones)

Offline Joe L

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Re: Shadow Hammer Following Issue - Need help
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2020, 05:44:13 PM »
Yep!  Tdogg was right.  Thought so.   The top edge of the hammer hook should be sharp, not rounded.
Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C, P-10F, P-10S, MTR

Offline tdogg

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Re: Shadow Hammer Following Issue - Need help
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2020, 05:49:22 PM »
Post up a picture of the CGW hammer hook and sear when you get a chance.  I bet it will enlighten folks to the issue.

Definitely make sure when your new CGW parts are installed to check for hook interference again.  You might have a timing issue on the gun that is causing this wear.  Especially if the overtravel screw isn't the culprit.  Hopefully the new sear resolves that potential issue too.

Cheers,
Toby
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