Author Topic: VZ.58 fitting to a tall person  (Read 314 times)

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Offline czrob2

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VZ.58 fitting to a tall person
« on: September 20, 2020, 12:00:29 PM »
Hi everyone.  First real post of probably many!

I have two CzechPoint Vz.58 models.  One is the original "Military" version with the beaver barf furniture from 2011, and one slightly later which I think is a Sportster (now called the Military folder?) with the original metal folding stock.  I am 6'4" with a long neck.  No long arm fits me well, and the Vz.58 is even worse than normal.  So much, that I need to do something about it.  When I try to mount it comfortable enough for a cheek weld, the butt is almost above my shoulder.

I started a similar thread on THR, but would rather get some specific Vz.58 product advice from the experts here.  Here is a quick video I made of my issues.


I'm thinking of leaving the beaver barf one mostly normal, but I wouldn't mind attaching a temporary recoil pad or something to the end to extend the stock length.  If I could get an extended toed Morgan recoil pad on it without destroying the furniture, even better.  Any suggestions?

The second Vz.58 I'm willing to trick out in any way possible to make it comfortable.  I'd like to keep it a folder, so I'm open to any of the FAB Defense, Bonesteel or other brand of buttstocks you think would fit me best.  I'm also putting a red dot on a LPM Optic mount so that might help a bit too if I forgo the iron sights. Still...don't underestimate my Ichabod Crane neck.

Robert

Offline RSR

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Re: VZ.58 fitting to a tall person
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2020, 03:37:10 PM »
I think there are two issues here.
First is stock + optic height and second is shooting stance.

To the former -- on ARs there are increased height risers for red dots, both mounts and risers and folks are increasingly switching to those from cowitness options. 
Here's a riser from unity: https://www.unitytactical.com/product/fast-riser-optic-mount/
And here's a tall red dot mount from them as well: https://www.unitytactical.com/product/fast-micro-mount/

Some discussion of the taller red dot mount here w/ 3rd rifle -- and great video on the whole:
Discussion of third rifle w/ red dot on taller riser starting here: https://youtu.be/84KBHdpKB1c?t=1285
Whole vid:


For second on stance, this video is great -- basically transitioning from traditional bladed stance to modern squared fighting stance:


Importantly, a muzzle brake for the VZ58 that's actually not just for full auto guns like the Czech Brake or just a flash hider is a necessity to use it like a carbine w/ recoil similar to an AR -- at least initially to get comfortable using it as such IMO.  I have a half dozen SF Brakes remaining (listing in classifieds), but there are other options w/ more flash and blast as well that also tame recoil and increase muzzle control.

For me, I use the low inline NEA forward red dot mount combined with a more aggressive shooters stance that pulls my head down (think linebacker stance but leaning further forward than I would w/ an AR) -- I'm 6' w/ a 34" or 34-35" dress shirt sleeve arms and a longer neck.  For me, the standard stock length works well w/ body armor or winter clothing, and adding the AK grenade launcher pad works great optimal length with a tshirt -- and they also fit on fixed stocks.  Like this pad: https://www.desertfoxsales.com/RUBBER_BUTT_PAD_p/dfs-207.htm

To the VZ58 specifically on the first part -- it does look like you could use a taller/higher stock and with an adjustable length of pull, but you need to be okay w/ not comfortably using the factory irons w/ these revisions -- could look into offset or qd optic removal for straining into them in emergency, but not for regular use...

So to fitting to a larger shooter end on the stock side, you really only have:
- the Stormwerkz adjustable adapters that are best suited for AR-style stocks -- ace stocks sells a buffer tube adapter that screws in (you're building up here and each connection offers some level of adjustment, so could potentially omit the folder, but I would recommend against that if you can afford it)
http://stormwerkz.com/stock-adapters/vz-58-stock-adapter-type-3-straight/ (could use angled for folks who just need minimal add'l height, but straight better for recoil control too -- Rifle dynamics uses something similar to this for their AK builds) + http://stormwerkz.com/stock-folding-mechanisms/stock-folding-mechanism-standard/ + https://www.carolinashooterssupply.com/ACE_CAROLINA_SHOOTERS_AR15_STOCK_PIGNOSE_ADAPTER_p/css-pignose-noboss.htm

- the RS regulate adapter for the Magpul Yugo stock (Yugo stock has a few different snap on cheek riser heights available, but polymer hinge so slightly less robust than stormwerkz option)
https://rsregulate.com/product/vzsa/

- Or this FAB stock w/ a quite adjustable cheekrest -- believe they offer both polymer and steel (something like +$100) hinge options for this stock, or maybe just for their AR ones, which is another option as those also have cheek risers but the risers look less rigid: https://zahal.org/product/fab-defense-sa-vz-58-tactical-folding-stock-cheek-rest/

*I thought that FAB had adjustable LOP, but it doesn't appear to -- their AR style definitely do, but uncertain about the utility of that cheek rest: https://zahal.org/product/fab-defense-m4-folding-sa-vz58-rifle-stock/


For increased height optic mounts your options are greater:
- RS regulate side rail mount with several different height options for upper rail mount
- Czechpoint side rail mount that sits higher than RS's lowest VZ58-specific configuration -- if the CP version fits you
- railed top cover mounts all sit higher than factory irons, but generally lower than side rail mounts
- the Scout Optics scout scope mount that replaces the rear sight and is probably the cheapest option and is probably the tallest option short of sticking a riser on the taller forward handguard mounts
- the forward taller upper handguard mounts -- the B&T (unsure if currently available) and the DForce rails that vz58rifle US sells are only two that clamp to the barrel for optimal stability as far as I know (NEA and Bonesteel lower-mounts both use set screws off of gas block and receiver for repeatability instead), and the FAB Defense aluminum version might clamp but uncertain
--- Of note, I think DForce makes and sells both rear railed top covers and railed front handguards that are properly inline for offset irons use if that's important.  Uncertain if anyone else offers this capability/matched configuration offhand.
- and finally, you could use any standard picatinny rail optic mount option with picatinny rail riser(s) stacked atop that are available in varying heights

And don't forget obvious considerations of height of optic over bore as you raise it, especially for very close self-defense situations where civilian rifles are most likely to be used.

Hope this is helpful.

*And here's the Rifle Dynamics AK stock mount for comparison -- unfortunately they don't offer this for Vz58s:
« Last Edit: September 20, 2020, 06:07:42 PM by RSR »

Offline czrob2

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Re: VZ.58 fitting to a tall person
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2020, 04:23:32 PM »
RSR.  Thanks for much for the reply.  I will look at all those videos and suggestions over the next day or so, but wanted say that ahead of time since I may not get to them right away. Good stuff!

Robert

Offline czrob2

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Re: VZ.58 fitting to a tall person
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2020, 09:50:45 PM »
Watched the videos. Looked at the products.  In the video above for example (and pretty much every video of everyone holding an AR/AK), I can either get the butt on my shoulder or a cheek on the stock.  Not both.  It seems so easy for everyone else.  I'll keep working on it.


https://ibb.co/MGY0yxH

Offline MeatAxe

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Re: VZ.58 fitting to a tall person
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2020, 09:27:54 AM »
Yeah, it’s not just a problem for tall people — the iron sights on a Vz58 are just too bleep low. Don’t know why the Czechs did that. The Vz irons are a lot lower than the AK’s. Of course, the Czech solution was a low slung butt stock to bring the eyes in line with the irons, which accentuates muzzle flip.

The easiest solution is to just forget about the irons altogether and get a good quality red dot (say an Aimpoint) or optic (say a Primary Arms with a acss reticle) and just raise it to your desired eye level with either a good side mount or one on a railed fore end.

At one point I was fixated on co-witnessing the existing Vz58 irons with a red dot, which is bleep impossible.The only solution is to put on taller iron sights - easier said than done. The rear sight is easy enough, there are replacement blocks of picatinny rail for those that you can mount your rear sight of choice. A taller front sight block for the Vz is a lot tougher to come up with. Eventually, I found that Dinzag would custom drill their aftermarket AK front sight base to fit the Vz barrel diameter. However, in the end, that seemed like too much of a hassle to de-populate and re-populate a fsb on the Vz barrel, so I just went with a Primary Arms acss optic, which should be just as durable as the irons and a lot easier for my eyes to pick up with it’s etched reticle, even if the batteries go dead.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2020, 09:35:15 AM by MeatAxe »

Offline RSR

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Re: VZ.58 fitting to a tall person
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2020, 01:41:27 PM »
Yeah, it’s not just a problem for tall people — the iron sights on a Vz58 are just too bleep low. Don’t know why the Czechs did that. The Vz irons are a lot lower than the AK’s. Of course, the Czech solution was a low slung butt stock to bring the eyes in line with the irons, which accentuates muzzle flip.

The easiest solution is to just forget about the irons altogether and get a good quality red dot (say an Aimpoint) or optic (say a Primary Arms with a acss reticle) and just raise it to your desired eye level with either a good side mount or one on a railed fore end.

At one point I was fixated on co-witnessing the existing Vz58 irons with a red dot, which is bleep impossible.The only solution is to put on taller iron sights - easier said than done. The rear sight is easy enough, there are replacement blocks of picatinny rail for those that you can mount your rear sight of choice. A taller front sight block for the Vz is a lot tougher to come up with. Eventually, I found that Dinzag would custom drill their aftermarket AK front sight base to fit the Vz barrel diameter. However, in the end, that seemed like too much of a hassle to de-populate and re-populate a fsb on the Vz barrel, so I just went with a Primary Arms acss optic, which should be just as durable as the irons and a lot easier for my eyes to pick up with it’s etched reticle, even if the batteries go dead.

Stock irons are made for shooting prone, and the lower your head is to the ground then the less likely you are to be shot in the face in combat.  The Vz58's stock profile is much more comfortable from prone than AKs -- Czechs' weapon designs and according tactics appear to care more about preservation of soldiers' lives than the Russians.

For close combat, the front sight's ring or ears make for minute of man snap shooting on full auto, and you don't need your head tucked quite as far down for this technique.

Remember that these were designed shortly after WW2 -- and basically steal a lot from the Sturmgewehr 44 insofar as stock and sights are concerned.


The VZ58 stock profile is much closer to the Stg 44 than the AK; however, sights are lower like the AK47.




The Vz52 preceded it and was similar to the SKS in design, albeit with a more powerful cartridge -- and both of which appear to be much more answers the M1 Garand than the Stg44.  But notice that AK and Vz58 sights roughly same height as their predecessor.  M1 Garand's sights are lower due to the gas port and op rod being under barrel rather than above like its combloc imitations.

M1 Garand, designed 1928 and produced from 1934-1957


SKS, designed 1943 and produced from 1945-1958 in Russia


Vz52, designed 1951 and produced from 1952-1959 (here missing upper handguard so you can see the piston and low profile op rod)


« Last Edit: September 21, 2020, 02:22:03 PM by RSR »

Offline RSR

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Re: VZ.58 fitting to a tall person
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2020, 02:06:53 PM »
Watched the videos. Looked at the products.  In the video above for example (and pretty much every video of everyone holding an AR/AK), I can either get the butt on my shoulder or a cheek on the stock.  Not both.  It seems so easy for everyone else.  I'll keep working on it.


https://ibb.co/MGY0yxH

Like I said -- I think you probably need higher optic and higher stock.  I think MAC is about 6' 3 or 4" IIRC.  But probably a shorter neck.  Until you make equipment adjustments you'll struggle.  The Vz58 was probably built for 5' 6-8" average undernourished eastern european, not a modern American, male.

There's also the shooting stance. 

You appear to have more traditional bladed stance, which requires a much longer stock and changes your head position on that stock:


Than modern squared fighting stance:


Images from here: https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/how-to-shoot-a-rifle/

There are several decent free vids, but if you don't mind spending a little money -- Kyle Lamb's books and dvds are a pretty solid standard.  Don't know how tall he is, but he's at least 6ft.
https://www.vikingtactics.com/product-p/vtac-dvd-7.htm
https://www.amazon.com/Green-Eyes-Black-Rifles-Warriors/dp/0615166547/



Stance here is like anything -- it requires practice.  Someone (forget who offhand) has decent a free vid on youtube where they transition from a fistfighting stance to adding a handgun and rifle while keeping effectively same stance.

Offline MeatAxe

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Re: VZ.58 fitting to a tall person
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2020, 08:36:55 PM »
You see how military doctrine has evolved by necessity over the decades and weapons development has paralleled or lagged behind. Sometimes new weapons and tactics dominated the battlefield and caused such evolution, such as the introduction of the machine gun in WWI and the assault rifle in WWII. The battlefields of WWI, where armies initially maneuvered in the countryside and then settled into static trench warfare, dominated by fixed machine guns, are far different than warfare today, which is highly mobile and mechanized and often involves close quarters urban combat. A hundred + years ago when troops sniped at each other from trenches with high-powered bolt action rifles, it probably made sense to get your head down as low as possible on the rifle for a semblance of protection. Increased muzzle flip from recoil was irrelevant since rounds were fired one at a time. Now, especially in cqb , you want your head up on a swivel to detect threats and react, and a straight line butt stock to negate muzzle flip, especially when shooting full auto.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2020, 08:55:13 PM by MeatAxe »

 

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