Legality Of Modifying Triggers

[simplemann]

Hello all, Ive recently heard that if you modify the trigger on a CC pistol (anyway at all including polishing), that it could come back to haunt you if you go to court. Any thoughts on this?

[Das Hugh!]

Depends. How would they know Firstly. Unless u told them. When these things occur I don't think they shoot them after. Rather it sits in a bag as evidence for about 6 months. Only time I can see that mattering is if u say it was an accidental shooting. Then yes it could. But if ya purposefully shoot someone to stop them. Then I wouldn't see how it matters so long as it was intentional.  And only time a gun really gets tested is if doing ballistics as try to determine which gun shot what bullet etc. But if there's no question then yeah it sits in a bag till court basically with a zip tie thru it

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[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

This is an OLD story perpetrated years ago by some hand wringers looking to make themselves relevant in the legal arena. The simple fact is if you are involved in a defensive shooting and you end up with charges then it's the shooting in question and you are on trial not your gun. If the shooting is completely justified your gun has nothing to do with it modified action or not.
If you have a negligent discharge and hurt someone that's your unsafe gun handling not the gun.
There are multitudes of highly modified defensive pistols available from various manufacturers and there's nothing at all illegal about them. This nonsense comes up periodically but no one has ever cited a case where someone was convicted of an otherwise justifiable shooting because they had a smoother, lighter, crisper trigger.

[Phlyers13]

I bought it used and this is how it came.

[Catfishmoon]

I have also been wondering about that question recently and I have noticed that thoughts vary widely. The internet is probably a poor source for legal, medical or financial advice... Massad Ayoob is a person I consider to a level-headed advocate for firearms and I recently watched this video where he suggests not making changes to the trigger of a defensive firearm because of concerns if you end up in a courtroom. I imagine it would not take much effort to find videos supporting the opposite opinion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeLgzT-9N54

Bottom line; If a shooter ends up in a courtroom, the fact that the trigger was altered (perhaps lightened compared to the factory setting) can be brought to the attention of the jury. How that particular jury feels about it is anyone's guess.

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

Ayoob is one of the pantywaist handwringers who started this garbage decades ago. He was a cop in a left wing state and he created himself a nice cottage industry with his fear mongering. Today he is a paid professional witness.
I spoke to my own attorney about this and the response I got is just what I posted above. I'll take the advice of the guy I pay over the internet bomb thrower every time.

[Grendel]

It's nonsense. A righteous shoot is a righteous shoot, regardless of the weapon you use or how you modify it.

[simplemann]

Thanks everyone for your opinions on this topic. SI VIS that's what I would believe would be the case of negligence vs a justified shooting as you stated so eloquently. Catfishmoon thanks for the video, Massad explained it very well about the trigger being "smooth" and not too light. The P-01 Omega trigger on my pistol seems fine to me but I do have the M*CARBO spring kit that I'm curious to see the difference after the install. I'm not looking for a lighter trigger since I have no problems with either the DA or SA. If the trigger becomes smoother that would be nice. The moral to the story, be a responsible/careful gun owner.

[MeatAxe]

It's nonsense. A righteous shoot is a righteous shoot, regardless of the weapon you use or how you modify it.

If you hit the bad guy in the act with a modified (extra light) trigger, I would say no harm, no foul.

But, if you had a negligent discharge and hit somebody, or otherwise hit an innocent bystander while you were capping the bad guy, that could be a problem, civilly, if not criminally. It’s no holds barred for Plaintiffs lawyers and commie prosecutors, and you can bet that they wouldn’t hesitate to try to use your “hair trigger” against you.

[tomboyjr]

 So I see it this way.  I have heard for many years not to modify the trigger or carry handloads.
 I lived most of my life in CT and I always thought that was good advice if you live in a liberal state, or city.
Now I live in TN, but I still follow that advice. Why take a chance? The opinion here seems to be that if its a good shoot it wont matter. But what if its not so cut and dried. Maybe there are other circumstances in play, whatever they may be. Or, maybe you are not in your home state when a shooting goes down. And then there is the chance of a civil suit even in a good shoot situation.

 I'm sure we all have at least several guns. I know I have some that are for target shooting only, and yes, they have modified triggers. So for me, I'll modify my target guns to my hearts content, but my several carry guns will remain stock. Just my opinion.

[Earl Keese]

"The P-01 Omega trigger on my pistol seems fine to me but I do have the M*CARBO spring kit that I'm curious to see the difference after the install. I'm not looking for a lighter trigger since I have no problems with either the DA or SA. If the trigger becomes smoother that would be nice."

The Mcarbo kit is literally just lighter springs. Ayoob would not approve. 

[Grendel]

It's nonsense. A righteous shoot is a righteous shoot, regardless of the weapon you use or how you modify it.

If you hit the bad guy in the act with a modified (extra light) trigger, I would say no harm, no foul.

But, if you had a negligent discharge and hit somebody, or otherwise hit an innocent bystander while you were capping the bad guy, that could be a problem, civilly, if not criminally. It’s no holds barred for Plaintiffs lawyers and commie prosecutors, and you can bet that they wouldn’t hesitate to try to use your “hair trigger” against you.

Spare me the 'what ifs'.

If anyone here can cite a case where a self defense shoot which was otherwise completely lawful, culminated with the shooter being convicted criminally or sued successfully because, and only because, they had a modified trigger or 'hot' ammunition, I will send them a CZ-USA hat, free and gratis.

If the shooter is negligent as to collateral damage when they take the shot, it matters not what his gun is - he's in the cart and no mistake.

[CCWLearner]

I have seen the video with John Correa interviewing Massad Ayoob in the past and also read his opinion on the subject.  I'm subscribed to ASP on YouTube and watch most if not all of the videos posted there.  I also have a couple Ayoob's books I've read.

Personally I have modified the triggers in all of my carry pistols, of which two are CZ P-07 9mm pistols configured in a nearly identical way, one is a Sig P290RS .380, and one is a S&W M38-2 J-frame revolver.  They all have double-action triggers that are lighter than factory, but quite a bit heavier than the average Glock or other striker-fired trigger.  The P-07's are DA/SA and they have DA trigger around 7 lbs and SA trigger > 3 lbs.  In fact I run the heavier sear springs specifically to keep them over 3 lbs SA pull.

I'm not particularly worried about the criminal or civil issues that may arise with me carrying DA/SA or DAO guns that have >=7 lb DA trigger pulls and > 3 lb SA trigger pulls when these are industry standards for many factory guns.  I have self-defense insurance for such things if it comes to that, but in the states and localities I frequent, I'm not expecting it to.  As someone else posted earlier, the most likely issue would be if you injured or killed a bystander in the act of self-defense against an attacker, then you may be held civilly liable and they may use your trigger mods against you.  I haven't seen a case where this actually happened.  Either way I'd rather have a good DA trigger pull to help me put shots on the intended target and hopefully avoid hitting bystanders in the first place.

[Smitty79]

Here are more details of trigger modification problems.    I've taken training from Massad and occasionally correspond with him.    I've copied this from another post I did on this forum.

Here are some cases where trigger mods had impact.    I got these from Mas Ayoob.   

Santibanes v. Tomball and Galmon v. Phebus.

He also cites a case where using hand loads caused a problem.

New Jersey v. Daniel Bias

This video, from nationally known expert Andrew Branca, discusses gun modification and legal impact.    If you can get past his advertising, there is lots of great information.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIlFCrEmLe4

While these guys are not on our forum, most people aren't.    They are both master level shooters.

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

Two of those are cases where police officers ran afoul of department protocols. The case where handloads are brought up NJ vs Daniel Bias is in no way a defensive shooting and the guy was convicted of killing his wife, he is a liar and a murderer. The actual transcripts of these cases can be found and read by anyone who cares to know the true facts involved.
I read them. There's no case where anyone was convicted of having a modified firearm used in an otherwise justifiable defensive shooting.