Questions for loading 38 Special

[Dan_69GTX]

Finally got the dies for 38 special.

So...

- Do you need to be concerned with 38 special like you do on other guns regarding ogive and OAL in relation to the rifling?  Obviously for revolvers it doesn't matter (if within spec), but what about lever action guns?

- Do folks find crimping helps or hurts consistency of POI?

- For Cowboy loads, do you taper or roll crimp?  Or no crimp?

Thanks!
Dan

[M1A4ME]

Can't say about ogive/OAL but I would think it would matter since it's a chamber similar to what you see in a semi-auto pistol.

Crimp?  absolutely.  That tube magazine is a perfect place for recoil to jerk things around.  While I can't say that it ever happened, there's a reason why they don't load lever action rifle ammo with pointed bullets.  There is a belief (or somewhere in the past) a reason for believing recoil could jar the rounds enough for a pointed bullet to set off the primer of a round in front of it.

Don't think it would require a crimp like a magnum revolver case mouth requires to keep a bullet from moving.

Will you be loading/shooting the same ammo for a revolver?  If so, it's nice to have the same ammo work in both guns.

[SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM]

I roll crimp all my straight walled revolver rounds regardless of caliber and firmly at that but you don't want to over crimp to the point of damaging your bullet regardless which style you use. I also stick with bullets that have a crimp groove whether I buy them or cast them. Everyone who's had experience with such rounds knows you can get bullet movement under recoil in that  the gun recoils with enough force as to cause the bullets to move out of the case and in revolvers this can cause bullets to hang out of the chamber enough to prevent the rotation of the cylinder.
This can happen with full power magnums in heavy guns and it can happen with .38spl in very light guns such a as aluminum framed S&W's and Taurus as well as Ruger LCR's.
I suppose it's possible in a rifle chamber to run into a free bore issue if you were experimenting with some odd bullet style but I've never run across any such issue in any commercially available .38 bullet nor any of the many I home cast.

[bang bang]

welcome,

the specs still make a difference in any gun.  Just because you may not think so doesnt mean you wont come across some gun later on or maybe someone else gun later on.

Unless you plan on using the ammo in 1 specific toy, then you could tailor your load.

If you have some endgame, you may want to say what it is instead of bleepfooting around.  saves time and keystrokes.

[david s]

Some lever guns are particular about length overall. I have a pair of Browning model 92's in 44 Magnum and a single Browning 92 in 357 Magnum. If the overall cartridge length exceeds the SAMMI length by much, then the cartridges hang up when the action cycles. The Browning 92' and 86 45-70 lever rifles also don't have much of a leade the rifling starts at the end of the chamber pretty much. It's easy to get a bullet into the rifling with these. I roll crimp my reloads for these. In a spring-loaded tubular magazine it tends to let the individual cartridges slam into one an another during recoil. Crimping helps so the bullets don't get pushed back into the case a bit. I still have Redding taper crimp dies in 38/357 41 Magnum and 44 Special/Magnum but went back to roll crimps and then to the Lee factory crimp dies.

[Dan_69GTX]

Thank you for the replies. Do appreciate them.

Yes, I will not use pointy bullets. Definitely am aware of not doing that.  And I will not make bullets longer than specs. Loaded up some dummy rounds to try cycling them through the lever action. As well as doing overall length checks.  Some of the bullets I have tested/purchased will have to be loaded short due to the overall length of the projectile itself. I was not sure if that would cause an issue in a lever gun

I didn’t think about the rounds banging against each other in a spring fed tube magazine. Excellent point on why to crimp. Thank you.

I figured OAL would make a difference in a rifle, but wanted to check. Thank you for mentioning your experiences.  I have not done much research on that and lever action guns and figured I would ask the question here for folks who have experience loading for such.

Regarding crimping and crimp grooves. Some folks say it is OK to put a crimp on a case over a lead bullet that does not have a crimp groove. Is it true? Will that affect accuracy/consistency? Obviously I would not want to do that on a jacket/plated bullet.

Bang bang, not sure why you took offense at my questions. I didn’t realize questions are stupid and I should already know the answers. I don’t know it all so, I asked. I purposely didn’t ask/state the purpose of my rounds, because I wanted more answers than narrowing it down. I plan to load for cowboy, and plinking, and jacketed/hollowpoint for hunting, and…
I perceived your response as slightly hostile, was I correct in my perception? 

[aasbra]

I load in 357 cases for my lever guns chambered in 38/357.  If your rifle(s) are chambered to handle 357, then you have a little more flexibility on projectile length if you are loading in 38 special cases.  I mostly load plinking loads with lead, coated lead, and plated FMJ projectiles.  I applaud you for making a dummy round to test cycling.  I once grabbed a box of handloads that I hadn’t tested for cycling in my Marlin 1894 rifles and headed to the range, only to find they were a tad too long to feed from the magazine (longer range session that day single feeding them).  As noted, make sure you have a proper crimp to prevent the bullet from pushing into the case from the loaded tube magazine tension.  38 doesn’t recoil much in my lever action rifles.  Your results may vary, but I’ve found that accuracy for me is better with the 357 cases, even for a lighter (non magnum) load if I’m shooting much beyond 50 yards.

[M1A4ME]

Dan, didn't mean they make pointed bullets so don't use them.

I meant if recoil is great enough to set off a round then recoil may be great enough to move bullets in/out of the cases if not given the proper amount of crimp.

One other thing that just occurred to me.  Due to the longer barrel length you might want to check out some slower burning powders.  While a slow burning powder may be wasted in a 4 or 6" barrel you'd get a pretty good burn out of a rifle length barrel and have more flexibility in velocity and powder types that you could use.  If the rounds are intended just for that rifle.

[Wobbly]

I load quite a few 38Spcl for plinking with 6" revolvers. I don't load any bullet that doesn't have a cannelure for crimping. At one time I was tempted to run 9mm bullets with no cannelure, but that did not pan out. I quickly found I was money ahead to buy dedicated 38/357 bullets and lightly crimp them into place.

My son likes to shoot 158gr (always over 4.0gr of W231) only in his S&W Model 10's. Both the plated and jacketed 158gr from RMR do a great job. That's what I shoot with him, but when he's not around I mostly shoot coated MBC and/or Berry plated 144gr DEWC. All of these are traveling at 750 to 900fps (target speeds).

I have no experience with 38/357 rifles.


Notes...
• Heavy crimp = short case life. At target velocities your brass will last almost forever... if you will use a minimal crimp. IME, more 38 brass is killed due to multiple roll crimps fracturing the case mouth than anything else.

• Very dense powders can become "position sensitive" in the cavernous 38Spcl case, so stay away from powders like Titegroup and Ba10. By this I mean velocities and accuracy radically change depending upon whether you point the weapon up or down before shooting. Low density is one reason Unique remains a favorite, even though it's hugely outdated.

• Loading 144gr DEWC flush is one way to fill the case volume and get away from the sensitivity, but you really need to watch your case brand when you do flush loading. (No PMC brand.) I deem it better to simply watch my powder and load the MBC coated to 1/10" exposed.


• The most accurate target power I've tried is Accurate No.2, while my favorite is N330 for general plinking. W231/HP38 is not too shabby.


• Case lube is still your friend, even with carbide dies.

• As our friend JLJ is fond of saying "Fit is king" when you shoot any type of lead bullet. If you are unsure, it never hurts to order the larger size.

• If you are competing with your rifle, you may be time ahead to place a Factory Crimp Die type of die in your last station to iron-out any bumps in the case wall. Don't use it for the crimp so much as keeping the side walls of the case straight. The Max Dia for the case is (of course) 0.380", and a post loading "sizing die" can iron those bumps away before they become an issue.


Hope this helps.

[Dan_69GTX]

aasbra - thanks for letting me know your experience with getting better accuracy from 357 cases.  I'll have to experiment with that.

M1A4ME - thanks for clarifying your statement about pointed bullets/moving the bullet since I was slow and didn't get exactly what you meant.  I also hadn't thought of the slower burning powder option in the rifle.     One of these days I should make the trip 2 hours south and we can do some shooting together.

Wobbly - As usual, thanks for the info.  I have a few lbs of Unique so I'll have to look into that a bit.  I haven't used that powder in years.  I do have a lot of 231 so that is probably what I'll try and start with.  Now that you mention it, I sorta remember you (or someone) saying about the more dense powders being position sensitive in some calibers.  Thanks for the heads up!!!  Knowing I'll be reloading 38/357 I've been slowly collecting bullets _ so I've got some Acme, BBI, and of course RMR to try.  I found you can not use plated/jacketed for the local cowboy shoots so that will minimize the amount of RMR I use.

Also - in the last picture you posted of the brass case sitting on your reloading manual, what causes those bumps in the middle of the case (besides the bullet sitting in the case).  I noticed I had a few of them on the couple of rounds I loaded last night.  They were below the bullet. I believe they appeared after I crimped.   My testing seemed to indicate it went away if I didn't bell the case as much.  Thanks for the recommendations - I've always shyed away from the FCD due to other things I've heard.  I bought a redding (I think) crimp die for my last stage.  The FCD is cheap so I'll get one and play with it too.

[Wobbly]

Also - in the last picture you posted of the brass case sitting on your reloading manual, what causes those bumps in the middle of the case (besides the bullet sitting in the case).  I noticed I had a few of them on the couple of rounds I loaded last night.  They were below the bullet. I believe they appeared after I crimped.   My testing seemed to indicate it went away if I didn't bell the case as much.  Thanks for the recommendations - I've always shyed away from the FCD due to other things I've heard.  I bought a Redding (I think) crimp die for my last stage.  The FCD is cheap so I'll get one and play with it too.

• That's a PMC case with a flush-seated DEWC. That's what happens when a deeply seated bullet hits the portion of the case side wall that starts to thicken. It can't collapse the bullet, so the case buckles outward. (A lot like loading 147gr carelessly in 9mm.)

• I'm not recommending the FCD. I built my own 0.380" ID sizing die to run over the full length of the case as the last loading step, much like part of an FCD. I just don't know where you'd get that function without getting an FCD and using the lower half of it. (I'm assuming all this because I've never seen or used an FCD for 38Spcl.) Maybe you could find an older, looser Sizing Die and simply remove the decapping pin assy.

I discovered all this because ~1 out of every 50 rounds would not enter the revolver cylinder. Those kinds of "fit" issues would be painful during a match.

• In my work with this cartridge, I just apply the slightest roll crimp. Lead bullets, being over-sized, are not going to move inside the cartridge case at target-to-moderate loads.

[M1A4ME]

I don't remember if I read it, or just saw an old video and wondered about it.

I remember seeing old time target shooters with revolvers raising their muzzles upwards prior to each shot.  I guess that was supposed to get the powder back against the primer area of the case before pulling the trigger.

I do remember reading about the guys reloading lead bullets in rifle cases (using pistol/shotgun powder for reduced velocity) using something like cotton ball pieces to put between the powder and bullet to insure the powder stays at the back of the case/on the primer flash hole.

[david s]

The Browning and Marlin rifles that have Micro-Groove type rifling have a reputation for preferring larger diameter cast lead bullets than the standard sized cast bullet at 358". Something like .360 or maybe a bit more. My Browning gets .360". Wobbly's "fit is king" statement kicked my memory into gear on this.