How to achieve consistent velocities and accuracy at ~128-130 PF

[Clint007]

Every time I change guns I have to go through this little journey trying to find a sweet spot for a load. Right now I have a new shadow that strangely enough doesn’t shoot as well with the load that I’ve used on my previous shadow.  Or the quality control of berries bullets has slipped.  I also know every barrel/gun is different.  But this 147 gr Berrys load with N320 which was spot on is now grouping much larger. Meh. Factory ammo (fed syntech) in the same new gun is very accurate….hotter obviously.

I note most published data end up reporting the most accurate load is at the upper end of the charge weight range….most are well above 125PF. Is this true?

I strive for 130PF , But I don’t sweat it that much because honestly in a match I can’t tell the difference between 125 and 130 but once I get up to about 135-140 I can notice the difference.

But from the scientific problem-solving perspective, how would you approach creating a load that’s very accurate, or at its most accurate envelope, right around power factor of 125–130?  Are you off script often when you strive for this?

[Earl Keese]

Seems to me, you have a couple options.
1. Work up a new ladder for your new Shadow and find a compromise.
2. Pick up some 124's and/or 135's, work up a ladder for them and see which has the best combination of accuracy and acceptable recoil/return to target.

[rg422]

You need to work up a load. Refer to the threads above.

For me, 147s (DG bullets, Bear Creek and Blue bullets), 3 grains of N320 nets PF 128-130 in my Shadow 2 and Shadow 2 orange. With sorted brass and powder measure verified on a FX-120 scale (I only verify when doing a load development), this nets SDs less than 6.

From experience, I’ve gotten the most consistency in velocities with same headstamp brass. Are you sorting them?

However, within 15 yards accuracy seems pretty even between mixed vs sorted brass. Testing done using a gun rest. I have not done any accuracy comparison beyond 15 yards.

[IDescribe]

(1) In terms of precision, plated bullets aren't great.  Switch to ACME or any other number of coated lead bullets or Precision Delta .355 JHP or (my ShadowLine prefers) their .356 (sold as .38 Super) FMJ, OR RMR jacketed (which I have never used, but seem quite popular).  But at the end of the day, finding the bullet your pistol likes is a big part of it, and bullet to barrel fit is huge.

(2) I have found "accuracy nodes" with my ShadowLine that vary by bullet weight.  Regardless of bullet-powder combo, groups with 124/125gr bullets would see group tighten somewhere in an average PF range of 132-134, and 147gr bullets would tighten up around 137.  My pistols with polygonal barrels do not show accuracy nodes like that, but my CZs do.


Your PF is no big deal, and you are correct, you will never notice small differences.  If you load and test over a chrono and know your velocities, go back and calculate extreme spreads in terms of PF, and you will see your ES in terms of PF is probably 4, 5, 6 or more.  If you can't notice that shooting over a chrono, you will never notice twice that running a course in your action shooting sport of choice.     

In terms of upper or lower end (or middle, whichever) of a load range being more accurate, I know people I respect and trust when it comes to loading who have found such trends, but I have not found them at all.  In my testing, specifically where I noticed my CZ trending to accuracy being tied to velocity by bullet weight, I specifically tested faster burning vs slower burning powders to see if there was such a trend, and in all cases, the bullets tightened up in particular velocity ranges, NOT at particular ends of the powder charge range.  The only trend I have seen there is that there tends to be a load at and above which SD and ES drops is markedly improved, I would assume because that is the point where I start to get a fast, efficient pressure seal and stop blowing powder past the bullet into the barrel where it doesn't contribute to moving the bullet.

And that's my 6 or 7 cents.

[Clint007]

(1) In terms of precision, plated bullets aren't great.  Switch to ACME or any other number of coated lead bullets or Precision Delta .355 JHP or (my ShadowLine prefers) their .356 (sold as .38 Super) FMJ, OR RMR jacketed (which I have never used, but seem quite popular).  But at the end of the day, finding the bullet your pistol likes is a big part of it, and bullet to barrel fit is huge.

(2) I have found "accuracy nodes" with my ShadowLine that vary by bullet weight.  Regardless of bullet-powder combo, groups with 124/125gr bullets would see group tighten somewhere in an average PF range of 132-134, and 147gr bullets would tighten up around 137.  My pistols with polygonal barrels do not show accuracy nodes like that, but my CZs do.


Your PF is no big deal, and you are correct, you will never notice small differences.  If you load and test over a chrono and know your velocities, go back and calculate extreme spreads in terms of PF, and you will see your ES in terms of PF is probably 4, 5, 6 or more.  If you can't notice that shooting over a chrono, you will never notice twice that running a course in your action shooting sport of choice.     

In terms of upper or lower end (or middle, whichever) of a load range being more accurate, I know people I respect and trust when it comes to loading who have found such trends, but I have not found them at all.  In my testing, specifically where I noticed my CZ trending to accuracy being tied to velocity by bullet weight, I specifically tested faster burning vs slower burning powders to see if there was such a trend, and in all cases, the bullets tightened up in particular velocity ranges, NOT at particular ends of the powder charge range.  The only trend I have seen there is that there tends to be a load at and above which SD and ES drops is markedly improved, I would assume because that is the point where I start to get a fast, efficient pressure seal and stop blowing powder past the bullet into the barrel where it doesn't contribute to moving the bullet.

And that's my 6 or 7 cents.

Thank you for everyone’s observations and input.  I found interesting trends also over the years but did not explore them as critically as you, IDescribe.  That’s what I was looking for though, thoughts on whether there were velocity dependent trends in accuracy within a given load range.

[LMS]

Factory ammo (fed syntech) in the same new gun is very accurate….hotter obviously.

Actually the 150gr Syntech is not hot at all - barely meets minor PF.  Was super accurate out of my CZ, and then crazy inconsistent out of my Sig X5 Legion.

[Wobbly]

(1) In terms of precision, plated bullets aren't great.  Switch to ACME or any other number of coated lead bullets or Precision Delta .355 JHP or (my ShadowLine prefers) their .356 (sold as .38 Super) FMJ, OR RMR jacketed (which I have never used, but seem quite popular).  But at the end of the day, finding the bullet your pistol likes is a big part of it, and bullet to barrel fit is huge.

And that would be my first thoughts too.

As plated bullets get rushed during crisis production periods, bullet dia and quality can vary widely. I used to be a HUGE Berry Mfg fan, but I haven't bought from them in 5 or 6 years.

• I buy Precision Delta as my first choice, by the 3000+ lot. But PD has a bad habit of turning off their order entry when they get any ordering pressure. And sometimes, due to popularity, their order entry stays turned off for months. There's no rhyme or reason, never an email to tell you what's going on, they simply go 'dark'. 

• What I've done lately is save my 9mm PD bullets for testing and competition, and order nothing but Rocky Mountain Reloading for everything else, including all my revolver. I really like their blunt-nosed 124gr JHP and their "Match Winner" line is also very, very nice. Their JHP works very well with the standard RN Dillon seating anvil. The Match Winner is a truncated cone with a very flat meplat, and this allows a flat seating anvil to be used for very precise OAL control.

The quality and availability of both of these is such that I haven't ordered plated, lead or coated lead in several years. RMR has really honed their internal production and delivery systems. They never stop taking orders, they offer discounts on volume, they offer discounts on "blems", and at times shipments may come as much as 4 weeks later, but they always take your order and deliver. And, whereas PD will go "quiet" for several months at a time, RMR sends out newsletters to let you know what's going on.

Just my 2 cents.

[Clint007]

Yes I’m impressed with RMR also. I have boxes in fact. I was going to try them for the next load work up for this newer gun.

Yes….don’t want to make unsubstantiated comments about Berry, but the last batch I got are all over the paper compared to a slug I had from 6-7 years ago. Same bullet otherwise, same loads…..yes could be something else.

Just picked up some .356 Zero JHP to test, based on IDescribes observations.  I’ve noted some .357 lead bullets I used in past were super accurate in my Shadows.  But I don’t load lead or coated lead anymore. Prolly stick to JHP or CMJ going forward. Hence the .356….

[Wobbly]

Just picked up some .356 Zero JHP to test, based on IDescribes observations.  I’ve noted some .357 lead bullets I used in past were super accurate in my Shadows.  But I don’t load lead or coated lead anymore. Prolly stick to JHP or CMJ going forward. Hence the .356….

I also love the bullets from Zero [ https://www.rozedist.com/ ] and used them for a log time, but their supply was limited and like PD, they would run out of stock regularly. In fact, it was my first order from Zero that started this whole "watch your OAL in CZ chambers" thing, and began my entire involvement with this Forum !! What I wanted was simple FMJ bullets, but they were OOS, so I ordered a bullet designed for 357SIG (the only other 0.355 bullet in stock). The OAL on that first order worked out to be ~0.970", and so I had to sell them to a shooting buddy and reorder from Berry Mfg. Here's the original, very first photo I took for this Forum...

After that, their JHP became regularly available and I ordered several thousand. Then when the Obama shortages hit, Zero simply became unobtainable. (This was 10 years ago.) In fact I still have ~900 JHP from Zero I held back for extreme emergencies, thinking there were no other brands that were as accurate.

I guess what changed my mind was that the RMR JHP came out, was shaped like the Zero product and was easier to obtain. But back to your point, yes the Zero product is vey high quality and will restore your accuracy.

This turned out to be a trip down Memory Lane !! 

[Harrell2Xtap]

You could try going heaver to the 165 Xtreme bullets. For me I can hold a 2 inch 3 shot group at 25 yards with my Shadow 2 Orange and SRO. Very light recoil and they have been very accurate in at least half a dozen other Shadows that I have shot them in. Velocity has a big factory for me most of the time I found my accuracy nodes roughly at 90 to 95 % of max as long as I making power factor and can hold a 3 inch or better group at 25 I'm happy. Also I found that a really good crimp will keep the velocity and accuracy tighter then a mediocre crimp. I use a lee factory crimp on every cartridge I load from 380 to 300 win.

[LMS]

I found that a really good crimp will keep the velocity and accuracy tighter then a mediocre crimp. I use a lee factory crimp on every cartridge I load from 380 to 300 win.

What do you crimp your 9mm at?

[Clint007]

I dunno, 165gr in that tapered 9mm case? The seating depth window for my 147s is narrow enough. I’m impressed you can even load 165gr in a 9mm case.

I don’t crimp per se, I just de-bell the flare back to .378-.379 but it depends on the case thickness and the bullet diameter. Learned that here from these guys….there’s a sticky on this subject.

C

[Harrell2Xtap]

Equipment
Caliber:  9x19 Luger
Bullets:  Xtreme 165
Brass:    New Nat Brass
Powder:  AA#2
Primer:  Ginex SPP Nickle Plated
OAL:     1.145"
Pistol:    Shadow 2 Orange
Qty:      10 rounds each, slow fired
Weather:  75 F and Indoor Range
Chrono:  Lab Radar

Load      Avg Vel           SD
2.8gr          770              8
2.9             782              16
3.0             794              12
3.1             810              13
3.2             825              22

NOTES 
• Metered very well due to small grain size
• Little bit of powder residue after 100+ rnds
• SD could be a little better but I'm Happy
• Recommend 2.8 - 3.0 for Minor Power Factor
• 2-3 inch group 5 shots rested at 25 yards

Side note this is one of the softest recoil loads I've have ever made and shoots well suppressed very quiet.

Photo here....
https://cdn3.volusion.com/rqewx.ykwdy/v/vspfiles/photos/XC9MM-165RN-B0500-2.jpg?v-cache=1617792155

[Clint007]

Is this a round nose specimen?

C

[Wobbly]

Is this a round nose specimen?

Seems to be.