Advantage of SAO triggers?

[Crawl]

Made a reddit post, but should've posted here first. Haven't gotten any answers on reddit so far.

Is the CZ SA trigger pull or reset improved when the disconnector is removed?

CGW says that their S2 disco creates an ultra-short reset (which is the best I believe any CZ can be), but I'm not sure how it does this any better than removing the disco altogether.

[Minfred]

I cannot speak to your question but I'll say when I am running a course with a SA or a DA/SA I forget about the trigger and get to shooting.

[Wobbly]

Made a Reddit post, but should've posted here first. Haven't gotten any answers on Reddit so far.

With all due respect, my friend... I'm really not surprised. The users of Reddit, at least in my humble experience, seem to be only a 1/2 click above the mental clarity of Facebook regulars. Responses are  voted Up or Down depending upon the average IQ of the readers of that post, regardless of your education level or expertise on the subject. If Reddit had been around in 1550, Galileo would have been shouted down, Columbus would have never sailed over the horizon, and we'd all be crammed into the space now called Ukraine and dealing with daily missile strikes.

Is the CZ SA trigger pull or reset improved when the disconnector is removed?

That's exactly what happens, with the addition of the firing pin block being removed.

SAO is not advisable for everybody, nor the ultimate setup for every occasion. I was shooting action pistol once with a buddy who used a CZ with SAO. On the command "load and make ready" I could use the de-cocker on my SP-01 TAC, but on his turn he lost the grasp on the hammer as it was being lowered. There was an AD with the round landing about 4 feet in front of himself and the RO. This happened to be the start of the very first stage and he was immediately disqualified for the entire match. Poop happens.

CGW says that their S2 disco creates an ultra-short reset (which is the best I believe any CZ can be), but I'm not sure how it does this any better than removing the disco altogether.

I am not familiar with every part CGW makes, nor do I claim to be a gunsmith, but I am a CGW customer and a big fan. If this is the part I'm thinking you're describing, then a built-in adjustment allows the user to remove all the trigger slack, plus the absence of the firing pin block allows the use of lightened 1-piece firing pins.

I'm just trying to help. Others who know far more will follow.

[Crawl]

@Wobbly we are in agreement!

However, you have addressed the key part that I actually don't understand.

As I understand it, removing the firing pin block reduces the length of reset because only the sear needs to be reset.

I do not understand how adding a SAO trigger and removing the disco shortens the reset.

Does the trigger bar become repositioned when converted?

[Crawl]

Geez, I just revisted my reddit post. Upvotes were given to "SAO feels better, duh!", and diwnvites were given to actual discussion.

If Tapatalk worked better, I'd post my questions here far more often.

[M1A4ME]

When I did my CZ75 Compact (with rails) conversion to SAO I had that very issue.

I left the firing pin block assembly in and working.  The trigger would cock when the slide went back.  The sear would reset as the trigger moved forward and when you pulled the trigger the hammer would fall. 

Put ammo in the mag, lock the mag. in, release the slide and pull the trigger and there was no BANG.  Tried it several times, unloaded it and put it back in the bag and shot something else that day.

Came home, fiddled with it for a bit, asked about it here, finally got it figured out that even though the rest of the stuff moved into proper position the lever/arm that lifts the firing pin safety wasn't going back into position due to the trigger bar not going a tad bit farther forward. 

I could remove the trigger adjustment screw at the top and it still wouldn't reset.  I had to remove the trigger and remove some metal on the front of the trigger (where you couldn't see it up in the frame) because the trigger was making contact with the inside of the frame. 

Had I removed the firing pin block assembly I'd have never had an issue - unless something happened that the firing pin block is supposed to stop from happening.

Weird stuff can happen when you start putting parts together.  The guys that work on them all the time (CZ Custom, CGW, etc.) probably run into a lot of similar situations and quickly realize what is happening and how to fix it.

[Tok36]

Is the CZ SA trigger pull or reset improved when the disconnector is removed?

Converting a CZ 75 variant pistol to SAO alone allows you to use SAO flat Triggers and limit the SA pre-travel with fewer parts and potentially less cost. Additional SA Trigger pull improvements are the product of other tuning options. You can get virtually the same SA Trigger pull in DA/SA configuration with the correct tuning, but it requires more work and may cost more. Most folks are not interested in hand fitting a Disco to achieve what a pre-travel set screw in an SAO Trigger achieves. I think hand fitting discos is fun, but i enjoy tuning as much as i enjoy shooting. The value of reducing the SA pre-travel is subjective and its own discussion.

Generally there is no reason to leave a Disco installed once a CZ 75 variant is converted to SAO with an SAO Trigger. It could technically cause some unnecessary drag or a timing conflict.

There is one reason that i can think of to leave a Disco installed in an SAO CZ. This is if you want to go SAO while using a DA/SA (curved) Trigger and use the Discos hook to limit the SA pre-travel. DA/SA Triggers do not have an upper set screw for limiting the SA pre-travel and their design dose not allow for the addition of a pre-travel set screw. You use the Disco to limit the pre-travel and cut the wings off. The Disco wings are the DA parts and unnecessary in SAO configuration.

This could also apply if you were using an SAO Trigger without a pre-travel set screw, like the one that comes factory with the CZ 75 SA. You are better off just drilling and tapping to add a pre-travel set screw in this case though.

CGW says that their S2 disco creates an ultra-short reset (which is the best I believe any CZ can be), but I'm not sure how it does this any better than removing the disco altogether.

In a CZ 75 variant, the Disco dose not influence the SA reset distance, only the SA pre-travel. Some discos are called "Short Reset Discos" because they are designed to work with other short reset kit parts. I think that sometimes the pre-travel and the reset distance are both conveyed as part of a "short reset" because its easier to explain to CZ owners that do not have a need for, and will not benefit from, greater than a certain level of detail. This is most CZ owners from what i have seen. If there is no benefit, then there is no reason to drown people in technical detail. If they ask questions, you know they want the details.

As Minfred mentioned, once you start shooting fast, allot of the fine detail of the Trigger dynamics tend to grey out. I am still going to tune the crap out of them because it is fun. Reaching the absolute maximum potential of a mechanical system is its own hobby.

[Crawl]

Can't explain how much I appreciate your response. You've confirmed what I'd concluded, but since I don't know what I don't know, I wasn't sure if I was missing something. You even answered the next few questions I would've had.

[Wobbly]

Can't explain how much I appreciate your response. You've confirmed what I'd concluded, but since I don't know what I don't know, I wasn't sure if I was missing something. You even answered the next few questions I would've had.

This is why we keep Tok36 around. 

[larry8061]

Made a reddit post, but should've posted here first. Haven't gotten any answers on reddit so far.

Is the CZ SA trigger pull or reset improved when the disconnector is removed?

CGW says that their S2 disco creates an ultra-short reset (which is the best I believe any CZ can be), but I'm not sure how it does this any better than removing the disco altogether.

Since I don't know the secret handshake this can be ignored....I got to shoot a TS awhile back and if you haven't had that experience it is a bit exciting.  If the trigger is  moving/has moved the gun went bang. NO take up, no creep, no over travel. Trigger moves, gun goes bang.  For folks with working grey cells (take exception here) that is a competition gun only.

[Minfred]

This is why we keep Tok36 around. 

Thanks for the tip, never heard of TOK36 until now.
His expertise and one YouTube video has earned him a place of distinction.

[M1A4ME]

Made a reddit post, but should've posted here first. Haven't gotten any answers on reddit so far.

Is the CZ SA trigger pull or reset improved when the disconnector is removed?

CGW says that their S2 disco creates an ultra-short reset (which is the best I believe any CZ can be), but I'm not sure how it does this any better than removing the disco altogether.

Since I don't know the secret handshake this can be ignored....I got to shoot a TS awhile back and if you haven't had that experience it is a bit exciting.  If the trigger is  moving/has moved the gun went bang. NO take up, no creep, no over travel. Trigger moves, gun goes bang.  For folks with working grey cells (take exception here) that is a competition gun only.

I learned that if I take the TS to the range it's best to do a little dry firing before I load it.  Otherwise that first shot ends up in a different place on the paper.  My finger/brain automatically want to "take up the slack" at the beginning of the trigger pull in all the regular CZ pistols.  With the TS that ends up with a bullet hole in the paper not quite where I wanted it to be.

[sevt_chevelle]

I saw your post on reddit.  If you are relying on Reddit for your information it would be wise to expand your knowledge base.  People care more about different ways of taking pics with their feet and the words bruh and boi  than they do actual information.

First off, yes removing the firing pin block improves the trigger pull in means of a shorter reset and takeup. Part of the trigger movement in fpb pistols is activating the fpb.  This is why a Shadow 2 has a shorter reset and less trigger take up prior to hitting the wall.

By just adding a SAO trigger shoe does not change the trigger in terms of reset or trigger take up.  All it does is remove the DA function of the trigger.

The reddit idiots that say SAO feels better and changes the trigger are morons.  Those SAO trigger shoes are typically flat allowing one to get a lower finger placement on the trigger face.  All it does is trick your mind into thinking SAO jUsT bEtTeR because of simple leverage.  With the lower finger placement the trigger will feel lighter and quicker.

If you own a Shadow 2 or any other CZ pistol, if the only changes you make are remove the disco and add a SAO trigger shoe, the reset and trigger take up will be the same.

I have several CZ pistols of the same model, some da/sa some SAO the SA trigger is the same.

[Crawl]

I've been on these CZ Forums for years, but I thought I'd test Reddit just to see. I'm not surpsied that Toby provided the answer I need, but based on your response you've clearly read the discussion in both places! Thank you. I just couldn't see HOW SAO is making a difference, but now I have a specific example of the way that reddit is merely gun culture as opposed to gun knowledge. 

My other big post was one discussing the merits of manual safety vs decocker. I have string feelings in that one, haha. I got down voted to oblivion

Edit: big post, not bug

[Wobbly]

I just couldn't see HOW SAO is making a difference, but now I have a specific example of the way that Reddit is merely gun culture as opposed to gun knowledge. 

Most probably a high percentage of users not even old enough to buy a gun, much less own a gun !

I used to be the Youth Program guy at my GC. Had a 17yo show up one time who knew every every spec on every gun. He couldn't hit 8" steel targets at 30 ft or manage to load a mag, but he knew when Glock released each Gen series, all the twist rates of each, how many rounds each mag held, etc, etc. And the funny part was, he would rather talk than shoot !