Author Topic: The Importance of Dry Fire and Holding Drills  (Read 5992 times)

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Offline randyflycaster

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The Importance of Dry Fire and Holding Drills
« on: December 24, 2022, 09:05:22 AM »
Never heard of holding drills until now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=620LlSK3Oyo

Offline larry8061

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Re: The Importance of Dry Fire and Holding Drills
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2022, 08:54:25 AM »
That may be the best 7:40 spent on learning to shoot!  I do the holding drill incorporated into my mag change practice.  And not that my opinion matters but, it has made a WORLD of difference.  Now to find the video of how to practice dry fire - because that makes a huge difference as well.  Practice does not make perfect..........perfect practice makes perfect.  Thanks for the video!!

Offline Wobbly

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Re: The Importance of Dry Fire and Holding Drills
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2022, 09:14:31 AM »
Authoritative ! Not a word one usually associated with YouTube.

Thanks for posting.
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Offline Roscoe2212

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Re: The Importance of Dry Fire and Holding Drills
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2022, 05:10:49 PM »
Really great stuff-I have been trying to get back to bullseye seriously, and he makes me realize all the burning of powder really doesn't improve you nearly as much as dry fire and hold.  All the High Masters say the same thing, the secret is having the discipline to do it. 8)

Offline Johnny Chimpo

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Re: The Importance of Dry Fire and Holding Drills
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2023, 12:42:24 PM »
Authoritative ! Not a word one usually associated with YouTube.

Thanks for posting.

Another authoritative source from youtube
https://youtu.be/tK8ZGh2MpF4

Offline jcdata

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Re: The Importance of Dry Fire and Holding Drills
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2023, 07:45:50 PM »
Interesting. I don't put a death grip on the pistol at all.and if you listen to competition shooters they don't do the same thing either.

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Offline M1A4ME

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Re: The Importance of Dry Fire and Holding Drills
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2023, 08:21:12 AM »
In the first video he calls it a holding drill.  Part of that is just building up the muscles used to grip the pistol and aim it.

I've never tried that and I'm not sure how that compares to rifle shooting.  With rifle shooting you want to get to the point where if you move the rifle to your shoulder to shoot it then you and the rifle end up with the same hold, the same alignment every time and you are not straining the muscle/joints to attain that position.  NPOA, natural point of aim (some peopld leave the O out and call it NPA).  Once you practice enough and find that position (some instructors get mad if you say find your NPOA) that allows you to aim your rifle properly you'll be amazed at what your mind and body do without you having to think about it.

I thought I understood NPOA, until I realized I didn't.  Once I had my mind/body/rifle figured out I could go prone, put the front sight on the targetr (25 meters) and close my eyes and shoot a five round 1" group with my M1A.  Put the sights where you want them, close your eye.  Breathe in, breathe out, squeeze the trigger, breathe in, release the trigger, breathe out, squeeze the trigger and repeat three more times before opening your eyes.  If you can do that then you've developed a position that provides you with zero need to use your muscles to force a sight adjustment to line up with the target.  The least amount of muscle effort required to put rounds on the target where you want them to hit.

When you go prone you'll find that your body/mind puts you and your rifle sights in that position.  When you drop to a sitting position the same thing happens.  Standing is different as there is really no support for your support arm/elbow/hand but it's still similar because you'll find out that with practice you can still build a position that your body will automatically assume that takes the lease amount of muscle effort to maintain.  Just practice it the same way.  Get into position, align the sights on the target and then close your eyes and squeeze the trigger and breathe in, release the trigger and breathe out and then open your eyes to see how far the sights have moved off the original point of aim.  Then adjust your feet, or support arm/hand, or head, and keep working at it till you find that position that provides the least amount of movement between the time you close your eyes and the time you open your eyes.

I have not tried that with a pistol but it should work.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline Johnny Chimpo

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Re: The Importance of Dry Fire and Holding Drills
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2023, 10:37:01 AM »
Get into position, align the sights on the target and then close your eyes and squeeze the trigger and breathe in, release the trigger and breathe out and then open your eyes to see how far the sights have moved off the original point of aim.  Then adjust your feet, or support arm/hand, or head, and keep working at it till you find that position that provides the least amount of movement between the time you close your eyes and the time you open your eyes.

I have not tried that with a pistol but it should work.
If your goal is to fire a shot once every few minutes, that might work

If your goal is to use a pistol in a practical context, all of that is a waste of time and effort.

Offline Auslander

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Re: The Importance of Dry Fire and Holding Drills
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2023, 03:22:59 PM »
If your goal is to fire a shot once every few minutes, that might work.

If your goal is to use a pistol in a practical context, all of that is a waste of time and effort.

I disagree in regards to "all of that is a waste of time and effort."  What M1A4ME and by extension both Ben Stoeger and the SFC are doing relates back to kinesthetics.  Basically your mind's perception of body position.  Occupational therapists use similar principles when they help stroke and accident victims relearn how to talk, walk, eat etc.  Learning (or relearning) a new skill is really no different. The whole point is to train the mind and muscles to work automatically.  What is referred to a "muscle memory" is nothing more than the mind to automatically sensing the body's correct orientation in space.  Developing fine motor skills and muscle conditioning.  M1A4ME's methods are tailored to precision rifle shooting but I agree that there are some crossovers, to practical pistol shooting. 

I was wounded 20 years ago where I experienced a displaced frontal sinus fracture.  While I was lucky and did not have any penetrating brain trauma, my skull volume was compressed.  Similar to how you would raise the pressure in a can of Coke if you permanently dented the container.  This created intercranial hypertension and it took a while for my body had to adjust to the increased intercranial pressure.  Caused changes in vision, balance and, how my mind perceived body position.  Basic fine motor stuff was just slightly off.   

I used exercises like the one M1A4ME described (as well as Ben Stoeger and the SFC) to recalibrate myself kinesthetically in order to get back to duty.  I knew how to shoot.  Fine motor worked, but like I said, it was just off.  I spent hours behind a rifle, pointing my finger, pointing a pistol....heck, writing with my eyes closed and touching my nose, in order to retrain my brain.  Most people take that kind of thing for granted because you develop your orientation skills through out childhood. 

In the intervening years, I've used some of these same exercises teaching people whom others may refer to as "uncoordinated" to properly sense their body's orientation.  Most had no firearms experience or the wrong kind.  It was my job to teach them so I did.  Saw the same things work for a young Lance Corporal who was severely wounded in Iraq.  Friend of mine's younger brother.  While his injuries kept him out of SF, he's now in Federal LE.

Might be a waste of time for you, but maybe not for others.

Peace
J
« Last Edit: April 07, 2023, 04:35:31 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline M1A4ME

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Re: The Importance of Dry Fire and Holding Drills
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2023, 07:25:31 PM »
Yes.

If you practice all that stuff, and practice it correctly then you're the guy that can pull the pistol out of the holster, bring it up and when it stops the sights are aligned with each other and the target.

Ever know anyone who could shoot from the hip and hit what they aimed at?  I did.  He practiced, constantly till part of the draw was body position in relation to the target, hand position on the revolver (old SA Colt), hand/wrist/revolver position/angle to the target.  He whipped that gun out, cocked it on the way to the firing position and fired.  I watched him shoot a soda can off the fence one night after the sun had gone down enough I could no longer see the sights on my Ruger Single Six.  We stopped shooting, headed back to the house, a few steps towards the house (away from the targets) he stopped and said, "I've got one more round in my pocket."  After 30 years of working with that Colt he knew, by feel/sound how to turn that cylinder after closing the loading gate so the single round was under the hammer once he'd cocked it.  He turned around, fired and the soda can came off the fence.

With the rifle, when you made the decision (when your experience/perception/body work together without you taking the time to think about) to fire on the target your body will turn just the right amount, your hands grab the rifle, your body position becomes correct for the position you will fire from and once your body stops moving the rifle sights/cross hairs will be lined up, the safety is off, the trigger finger is positioned and you take the shot.

Can't say how much of it works for rifle and pistol shooting.  Breathing, finger position on the trigger, trigger squeeze, sight alignment, etc.

I used to shoot with an old guy who was on the Navy Rifle Team in the 60's.  He used to say, "Never waste time at the range doing something you could have done at home.  Think about that and then go do some dry fire drills.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline Johnny Chimpo

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Re: The Importance of Dry Fire and Holding Drills
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2023, 02:31:15 PM »
If your goal is to fire a shot once every few minutes, that might work.

If your goal is to use a pistol in a practical context, all of that is a waste of time and effort.

I disagree in regards to "all of that is a waste of time and effort."  What M1A4ME and by extension both Ben Stoeger and the SFC are doing relates back to kinesthetics.  Basically your mind's perception of body position.  Occupational therapists use similar principles when they help stroke and accident victims relearn how to talk, walk, eat etc.  Learning (or relearning) a new skill is really no different. The whole point is to train the mind and muscles to work automatically.  What is referred to a "muscle memory" is nothing more than the mind to automatically sensing the body's correct orientation in space.  Developing fine motor skills and muscle conditioning.  M1A4ME's methods are tailored to precision rifle shooting but I agree that there are some crossovers, to practical pistol shooting. 

I was wounded 20 years ago where I experienced a displaced frontal sinus fracture.  While I was lucky and did not have any penetrating brain trauma, my skull volume was compressed.  Similar to how you would raise the pressure in a can of Coke if you permanently dented the container.  This created intercranial hypertension and it took a while for my body had to adjust to the increased intercranial pressure.  Caused changes in vision, balance and, how my mind perceived body position.  Basic fine motor stuff was just slightly off.   

I used exercises like the one M1A4ME described (as well as Ben Stoeger and the SFC) to recalibrate myself kinesthetically in order to get back to duty.  I knew how to shoot.  Fine motor worked, but like I said, it was just off.  I spent hours behind a rifle, pointing my finger, pointing a pistol....heck, writing with my eyes closed and touching my nose, in order to retrain my brain.  Most people take that kind of thing for granted because you develop your orientation skills through out childhood. 

In the intervening years, I've used some of these same exercises teaching people whom others may refer to as "uncoordinated" to properly sense their body's orientation.  Most had no firearms experience or the wrong kind.  It was my job to teach them so I did.  Saw the same things work for a young Lance Corporal who was severely wounded in Iraq.  Friend of mine's younger brother.  While his injuries kept him out of SF, he's now in Federal LE.

Might be a waste of time for you, but maybe not for others.

Peace
J

I was talking about normally able-bodied people.  Clearly people recovering from injuries or illness is a completely different thing.

I also am not talking about the concept of dry fire in general.  I know it works.

I was talking about the very specific dry fire exercise I quoted.  It is a waste of time unless you are a complete pistol noob that is barely able to hit a USPSA target at 3 yards with no time limit.

Offline jcdata

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Re: The Importance of Dry Fire and Holding Drills
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2023, 09:50:07 AM »
Psst

https://youtu.be/_5jixIPMT6s

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