question on the 7.62X39 carbine?????

[recondoc]

I've been thinking of going with a carbine in this caliber for a while now as a South Texas all around.   I love .308 but my rebuilt right shoulder doesn't like anything bigger than the 7.62 russian or 5.56.  
I was actually looking at the NEF Handi-Rifle as they are putting out a 7.62X39 barrel for it this year and I don't need much more than a single shot for my doin's.  Unfortunatel, I just found out that they are going to make the bore diameter .308 rather than .311.  With the difference of the .003, it will ruin any ideas of accuracy from surplus ammo.  That's the same thing that Ruger initially did with the mini-thirty rifles and it got them a tragic reputation.
Does anyone know if the bore on the 527 carbine is .308 or .311?   If it will shoot the cheap stuff (as I am an awfully cheap bastard) I'll probably start looking to buy one.
Any other information on the pros and cons of the nifty looking little carbines is highly appreciated in advance.
Thanks,
Doc

[DWARREN123]

Don't know the bore size but mine likes the 154 gr SP Wolf ammo. With the Wolf I get 1 1/2 inch 5 rounds groups at 100 yards if I do everything like I'm suppose to. The carbine does have some kick to it.

[Dos]

According to the following info. the 527 Carbine in 7.62x39 is chambered for .308 and not .311.
www.findarticles.com/p/ar...i_n9333471

[n-300RN]

First, here is my previous post regarding this rifle.

p201.ezboard.com/fczechpi...=659.topic

Second, I believe you will be very happy indeed with the 527.  I have no experience with WOLF 154 grain bullets but have heard they do not open up well on deer at the velocities produced by the 7.62x39.  

Incidently, WOLF 123 grain HP's produced superb accuracy in my rifle.  I'm still trying to figure that out.  It is ammo that is decried by so many people on Forums, yet it performs so well in my rifle I am forced to question whether people have had much experience with it.  Granted, I don't get the same accuracy from my AK, but of course the AK has open sights with a very short sight radius, and the rifle itself is suspect when it comes to accuracy.

Read that post above.  It pretty much sums up my experience with the rifle.  I like it!

[LouB]

I have a CZ527 in 7.62x39.  I've slugged the bore.  It is 0.312".  However,  It shoots 150 and 170 gr Sierra 30-30 0.308 bullets well.  The OAL that works in my rifle is 2.300.  The magazine will fit 2.315.  Get 1.25 MOA 5 shot groups at 100 yards if I do my part.  2150 FPS with the 170's.

Lou

[n-300RN]

LouB:

Have you ever shot any critters with the 150 or 170 grain bullets in the 7.62x39?  I'm curious how the bullets performed.

Originally I was tending toward using the "heavies", then read an article in Gun Digest on the use of the 7.62x39 in the Mini-30.  The author indicated that he did not get much expansion using a heavy bullet, and the reports I've read about the 154 grain Wolf ammo on deer scared me off of it, too.

But your 170 FP seems like it should do well seeing that the velocities should hover around those produced by its intended rifle the .30-30.

Incidently, the two deer shot with my CZ 527 were shot with 123 Hornady handloads and bullets opened up very well, with complete penetration on both animals.

[LouB]

I haven't yet had a chance to see how the Sierra 170gr FP .308 30-30 bullets behave on game.  However, as you stated, they are designed for 30-30 use in this velocity envelope so they should do the job well.  I think the concern about Wolf 154 gr SP may be more of a concern about Wolf SP bullet construction.  Hopefully next season my luck will change.

Lou

[blackwing1]

I purchased a Ruger Mini-30 about a year ago, and mounted a Bushnell "Dusk/Dawn" 1.5x-4.5x scope on it.  Firing from bench, it would group about 3" at 100 yards with almost any kind of ammo, using both Russian (Wolf - 123gr HP) and Federal (123gr SP).

I used it this fall (2004) for hunting in northern Minnesota, thinking that in my friend's 40 acres that I wasn't going to get a shot long enough to justify using the .30-06.  But a nice big doe popped up on the FAR side of a clearing, and I had a clear, standing broadside shot at her.  I took the shot, but she whirled just as I pulled the trigger.  She flinched, hunched up, and took a dozen bounds into the swamp behind the clearing.  I waited 10 minutes, and paced the 125 yards across the clearing to where she'd been when I fired.  Found a big blood splash about 2-1/2 feet up on a tree trunk, and followed the blood trail into the swamp.  I found her lying down about 20 yards into the swamp, still breathing but not able to move.  After I put a round into the neck, I started to drag her out to some high ground...the front leg almost came off.  I had hit her high and towards the front, and the bullet had impacted directly on the big ball joint in the shoulder.

Later, when I got her skinned (skun?), I found that the ball joint had basically exploded...there was nothing left but shards of bone.  The bullet continued on down the inside of the rib cage, nicking one of the ribs as it entered, and exited out through the abdomen, with pretty fair-sized hole indicating (at least, to me) that the hollow-point Russian round had done a pretty good job of expanding.  I didn't recover the slug, since it had been left in the swamp.

I'm pretty confident with this round now, and I'm sure that if I'd hit where I was aiming (heart/lung broadside) that she wouldn't have gone more than a few steps before dropping.  Even with the poor shot placement, she didn't travel more than about 40 yards total before falling.

Here's an interesting problem.  I purchased another Ruger for my wife, she having tried it at the range, and wanting something a little nicer than the SKS she regularly shoots.  This second one won't group for spit.  Even using the Federal ammo, it won't do better than a 4" group at 100 yards, and with the Russian (or even some of the old Chinese stuff) they open up into 8" or 9" "groups"...more like "patterns".  This is when I started hitting some web sites, and learned that this is considered "normal" for a Mini-30.  Even calling Ruger didn't help.  I guess I just got lucky with the first one.

So I'm going to trade the second Mini-30 (plus a little cash, I'm sure) for a CZ 527 in this caliber.  I'm happy to see that people have fairly good accuracy with a wide variety of ammo in this firearm.

[n-300RN]

Blackwing1:

Your description of performance is very interesting.  It doesn't surprise me.  The 7.62x39 is a very good deer caliber.

Yes, you got lucky in regards to your Ruger Mini.  They are generally pretty poor performers accuracy-wise, and yes, as you noted, sending a Mini-30 back to Ruger due to poor accuracy is likely to result in the gun being sent back to you with a note that nothing was done to it because it is "within spec" or some similar bowing out.  Keep the accurate Mini you have.  It is a rare bird!

As for the CZ 527, I think you will be very satisfied.  Some older magazines have problems feeding reliably, but CZ seems to have fixed that with recent production mags.  

My CZ 527 will regularly shoot 2 1/2 inch to 3 inch 5-shot groups at 200 yards and this not only says something about the accuracy of the 527, but also the supposedly lousy accuracy of the Wolf 122 HP load I'm shooting!!  

I haven't shot much game with mine, just 2 deer, 1 coyote, several ground squirrels and now 2 60-lb or so stray dogs but the rifle is a performer and all but the deer were shot with the Wolf HP factory round.  No problems at all.

Get on board with a 527.

I warn you though, it may result in some domestic disturbances.  You and your wife may be tempted to squabble over who gets to shoot it and hunt with it!!

On second thought, preserve the peace.

Buy two!!

[blackwing1]

300RN:

Thanks for the comments. My only problem now is budget.  My wife has been promised the (first, accurate) Mini-30, so I'm kind of hoping that if I tell her that a bolt-action has a little more recoil than the gas-operated Mini, she might let it go.  On the other hand, once she gets to shoot it, I'll probably have a problem.  If I've got to buy two of these little pups, we're going to be eating dish-rag soup for a few months.

I've got the CZ on order through a local Gander Mountain (they had to bring it in from a different retail store, so it's going to take about a week).  Does CZ still ship them with only one magazine?  I understand from the various web sites that it's NOT possible to load single rounds, because of the controlled-feed Mauser-style extractor.  But I'd like to have a spare magazine or two on hand, and the cost from CZ's web site is something like $37.  Are there any after-market magazines (that actually work) for these rifles?  Also, I was wondering if CZ's scope rings mount solidly.  I've taken my 1.5x-4.5x scope off the (second, bad, trade-goods) Mini-30, and was planning on putting it on the 527.  It's got a 1" tube, and I noticed that CZ sells rings with either the 1" or 30mm size opening.  Do you think that this combination of scope/rifle/caliber is pretty good?  I certainly like it on my Mini (even though the front sight sticks up into the scope's sight picture on low-power settings).  It's a pretty compact little scope, so I'm hoping that it will fit between the CZ rings.

Also, I've never owned a rifle with a "set" trigger before.  After reading the CZ manual from the web site, they basically say to use it only from the bench, and to carefully (not sneezing, I'm assuming) put on the safety, eject the magazine, work the bolt, and then dry-fire if you've set the trigger but later decide you don't want to fire.  Can I assume that the point of impact won't vary, depending on which trigger (set, or regular pull) that is used?  Again, that's assuming that the operator does his/her part in keeping sight alignment/sight picture intact while moving the trigger back.

I've never bought any of the Wolf 154gr soft-points, but I think I'll give them a try in the new CZ.  Does point of impact change much between the Wolf 123gr-HP's and the 154gr-SP's?

Thanks again for the comments.

[blackwing1]

300RN:

Sorry, forgot to put this in my earlier post.  I had e-mailed CZ before ordering my rifle regarding the bore size.  Here's the response they sent:

---------------------
From: Mike Eagleshield [mailto:gunsmith@cz-usa.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 5:06 AM
To: Info
Subject: RE: FROM CZ-USA WWW - Ammunition/performance of CZ 527 in 7.62x39


The 527 carbine in 7.62 x 39mm (M43) will have a .311" bore and will handle all 7.62 ammo.
---------------------

It's the major reason I went with the CZ rather than the KBI/Charles Daly rifle, since the Daly response was that theirs is chambered for the US-standard 0.308" bore.

[n-300RN]

blackwing1:

The gun does come with one mag.  I bit the bullet and bought two spares.  I can single load with mine just fine.  The extractor snaps over the chamber round's rim no problem.  I know of no after market mags.

The scope power sounds great.  It should provide excellent range for many uses, particularly on deer.  

I like the set trigger and have used it on ground squirrels.  POI is not effected in any way.

I have no experience with the Wolf 154 grain ammo.  I have heard/read mixed results with it on deer, with the repeated problem being little or no expansion.  I don't use them myself.

I am not sure what the difference in POI will be between the various bullet weights.  My handload I used on the deer prints essentially to same POI as the Wolf HP's of similar weight.  With the experience I have had on the two dogs I shot, and with your and others comments on the performance of the Wolf HP's, I will not hesitate to use them on deer in the future.

[blackwing1]

300RN:

I've got to thank you once again for your information.  It's greatly appreciated.  I guess I'll just have to grit my teeth, and buy a couple of the CZ spare magazines, just to have on hand, as well as their 1"/16mm dovetail scope mounts.

Once I get it all set up and sighted-in, I'll let you know how it went.

[n-300RN]

Sounds Good!

One option that appeals to me for some of the shooting we do here would be a .311 round nose 150 grain bullet, driven as hard as I could safely from the rifle.  We have a few sports where we have blinds and occaisional elk in the vacinity, and such a load, tested first to make sure the bullet opened up properly, I would not hesitate to use on them.

Regardless, the gun and ammo is a great pair for deer, pig, bigger varmints, stray dogs and of course targets.

And with Russian steelcased ammo, I don't even have to crawl thru the bushes looking for brass!!  

[falup]

haven't grouped mine, but silver& brown bear and wolf all keep a pop bottle dancing at 75yds. supposedly the yugo mildly corrosive surplus is like match ammo.
every time i've seen mags at gunshows they want more than direct order.