How Many Condition 1 Carry the P-01

[RSR]

For my purposes, I see no reason to carry C&L with any DA/SA pistol. That people do it is fine for them, but I fail to see the purpose. I see it as an out-of-date holdover when it was considered proper to do so as DA pistols were scarce in the US, but with today's pistols for defensive carry, it's a relic.

Of course, anytime now I'll expect the crowds to be surging towards my castle with pitchforks and torches for spouting heresy.

You couldn't pay me enough to appendix carry Condition 1...  Folks I know who carry Condition 1, they have their holster on their hip or in the small of their back, where they may be looking at a grazing wound in a negligent discharge situation, and while that would certainly be painful it is fairly unlikely to be lethal to them (bystanders for small of back at least would be at fairly high risk)...  Other carry positions, such as appendix, would be much higher risk to the user... 

And those individuals near universally all wear suits or sports coats and most have private offices where they can change clothes or otherwise adjust their situation if need be. 

Point being, their situation and ability to do so is the exception.  Just for starters -- in Central Texas heat, most folks dress as lightly as they can get away with ~9 months out of the year, let alone in layers w/ a jacket year-round.

[M1A4ME]

It's in a kydex holster.  In the holster there's nothing in the world that can pull the trigger.

If the trigger isn't pulled how can the hammer fall?

If you modified the sear/hammer engagement (and messed it up) and the hammer did fall the firing pin block is going to save you from your screw up.

If you removed the firing pin block then it sounds like you were looking for problems to start with.  And they found you.

Remember, the firing pin block in the 1911's wasn't put in for inside the holster mystery trigger pulls, it was designed/installed in case you dropped your 1911 (cocked, half cocked or hammer down) on a hard surface from 6 ft. in the air and it landed muzzle down.

And, I don't carry appendix with anything except a pocket knife in my front pants pocket.

Never had a gun go off yet unless I pulled the trigger.  Not in the first 54 years of my gun carrying/gun shooting life.

[Crawl]

I hadn't considered the concerns of environmental impacts on a cocked hammer. I'm in Dallas, but home is closer to the Panhandle...I open carry back home, and clocked and locked just always made sense. If the holster can't prevent the gun from going off, then it's a holster problem.

Circling back to the training issue...look your gun into the holster. This is one reason why the Springfield XD is nice for AIWB...grip safety.

However, having that first round be the first and final round of a gun fight is the perfect result to an unavoidable gun fight. DA trigger pull does NOT give me the warm and fuzzies even on a Shadow with a silky 6 or 8-lb pull weight.

Granted, I MAY not AIWB the Shadow Compact (and open carrying it isn't an advantage vs open carrying an S2), but I can't see how there'd by ANY concerns with appendix carrying a P-07, for example. It'd be even safer than a P-10...which also is perfectly safe.

[RSR]

It's in a kydex holster.  In the holster there's nothing in the world that can pull the trigger.

If the trigger isn't pulled how can the hammer fall?

If you modified the sear/hammer engagement (and messed it up) and the hammer did fall the firing pin block is going to save you from your screw up.

If you removed the firing pin block then it sounds like you were looking for problems to start with.  And they found you.

Remember, the firing pin block in the 1911's wasn't put in for inside the holster mystery trigger pulls, it was designed/installed in case you dropped your 1911 (cocked, half cocked or hammer down) on a hard surface from 6 ft. in the air and it landed muzzle down.

And, I don't carry appendix with anything except a pocket knife in my front pants pocket.

Never had a gun go off yet unless I pulled the trigger.  Not in the first 54 years of my gun carrying/gun shooting life.

Handguns get holstered and unholstered -- they don't remain in the holster...  A 2-3 lb SA trigger can fire w/ just the weight of the gun itself if caught on a shirttail, etc., should the safety be deactivated.  Many of us have to go to places where we can't carry all the time -- post office, schools, hospitals, gov't buildings, etc. 

The point of redundant safety functions is to increase the margin of error...  Folks don't like to carry Condition 1 for the same reason many new shooters don't like Glocks for concealed carry -- they want a physical safety.

[RSR]

I hadn't considered the concerns of environmental impacts on a cocked hammer. I'm in Dallas, but home is closer to the Panhandle...I open carry back home, and clocked and locked just always made sense. If the holster can't prevent the gun from going off, then it's a holster problem.

Circling back to the training issue...look your gun into the holster. This is one reason why the Springfield XD is nice for AIWB...grip safety.

However, having that first round be the first and final round of a gun fight is the perfect result to an unavoidable gun fight. DA trigger pull does NOT give me the warm and fuzzies even on a Shadow with a silky 6 or 8-lb pull weight.

Granted, I MAY not AIWB the Shadow Compact (and open carrying it isn't an advantage vs open carrying an S2), but I can't see how there'd by ANY concerns with appendix carrying a P-07, for example. It'd be even safer than a P-10...which also is perfectly safe.

Not necessarily is it a holster problem...  A day hauling cedar (ashe juniper) brush w/ a pistol on my hip in a kydex holster, I've found broken branches, etc., in holster twisted into the trigger and trigger guard.  W/ a 2-3 lb SA trigger and if that same brush against my body deactivated the safety, then there could have been a serious issue...  And same open-top holsters have also had dirt fill the holster and a fair bit of the weapon...  I also carry a decocked DA/SA gun that also has a manual decocker/safety, and that too has faced it's fair share of crud when on the hip, and the crud that can accumulate on the back of the trigger tells me with certainty that I don't want to carry it cocked and locked (that particular gun doesn't have that SA + safety function, but if it did, I wouldn't for that use).  And in such use case, I also don't want an ambi safety -- I just want a one-sided safety facing my body.
And which is why if I know I'm moving brush or doing tasks where a gun on my hip would be interacting with other things, I go w/ a chest rig holster instead as it protects the firearm to the benefit of both my/others' safety and the gun's reliability...  Potential risk of a firearm on my hip was just no longer worth it.

Yes, I agree a grip safety is a great additional safety option, especially for an IWB concealed carry gun, but that grip safety also creates additional training issues and points of failure that may be less or greater than just going w/ a DA/SA gun and carrying it decocked.

And yes, hammer fired pistols with external hammers are great for concealed carry as well -- keep your thumb on the decocked hammer when holstering and it simply cannot fire.

My point is simply that there is no one-size-fits all, and since guns are tools you select/optimize the tool for the job you're doing while balancing various needs and compromises specific to you as a shooter and your use cases... 
Personally, I believe in minimal transitions between guns ergos/manual of arms, which leads me to decocked DA/SA guns as my primary w/ or w/o manual safeties given a range of use cases -- may run several different guns, but maximize consistency to the extent I can.  And which isn't to say I won't shoot or sometimes carry SA or DAO or striker-fired guns, but since they aren't my primary, I generally prefer to error on the side of caution w/ add'l safety features to weapon/holster/my movements for those weapons when I do as mistakes with firearms aren't always bells that can be unrung.

As always, YMMV.

[Crawl]

they want a physical safety.

My understanding is that Condition 1 involves the safety and Condition 2 does not. Do I have it wrong?

[GasGuzz]

My DA/SA are DA hammer down and only my 1911s/2011 are C&L, twins P01-Non.Omega/PCR to have the same manual as my decocker Sig/HK DAs.

[M1A4ME]

they want a physical safety.

My understanding is that Condition 1 involves the safety and Condition 2 does not. Do I have it wrong?

I may have understood what condition 2 was in my younger days when I carried a 1911 all the time.  But mine was always cocked and locked so the rest didn't matter since it takes extra steps, manipulation, thought process to do it that way.  My right thumb helps be get a pretty secure hold on the pistol when drawing it and bringing it up to fire.  Taking my thumb off the left side of the frame to cock the hammer is an opportunity to drop it or have my grip shift when I don't need that to happen.  Practice might change that but I saw no reason to practice that since I wasn't going to use it.

[Crawl]

RSR is making some good points. I've asked, many times, for a use case in which a DA trigger would be preferable to me. You've finally identified one! Thank you!

Additionally, a grip safety may involve additional training. True. However, so does ANY feature on any pistol. Training on a feature to increase safety seems infinitely worthwhile.

Also, consistency from one gun to the next? Completely agree. That's why I don't have a decocker on my rifle. I met a guy once who said he'd carry his rifle decocker if he could (in a conversation regarding the use of an AR as well as a sidearm).

[RSR]

Additionally, a grip safety may involve additional training. True. However, so does ANY feature on any pistol. Training on a feature to increase safety seems infinitely worthwhile.

Yes, but new shooters who have issues with grip or someone who has various hand issues or someone whose hands don't fit the gun may find a DA/SA trigger to be more reliable than a grip safety.  Again, no one-size fits all.

1911s have grip safeties as well -- CZs do not, nor do many other Condition 1-capable guns...  FWIW, b/c of this I'd consider the risk profile for 1911s to be more akin to Condition 2 than Condition 1 like we're talking about here.  Effectively w/ 1911s you're 3 steps to fire -- deactivate safety, grip to deactivate grip safety, and then pull the trigger. 
By comparison, Glock's have 1 step -- pull SA trigger and I'd don't consider their trigger blade/lever to count as an add'l safety step.  Springfield XDs have 2 steps (grip safety or less common manual-only + SA trigger), CZs have 2 steps (either DA trigger pull or safety + SA trigger), etc. 
Point being, 1911s are one of the safest cocked-and-locked carry options with a different risk profile than other models.

I agree that there's benefit to additional safety functions -- to each his own on whether the juice is worth the squeeze w/ additional safety measures...  Personally, I greatly prefer at least 2 functions to fire.  As I think I mentioned, there are instances where I carry a DA/SA pistol that's both decocked and w/ a manual safety on for varmint use -- but for social or self-defense against human use, I tend to believe that condition 2 on DA/SA guns without a manual safety is the best risk profile for me, and in this condition I don't want to carry guns with a manual safety when possible to prevent the possibility that the safety is activated should I need to use the firearm under duress...  So if there's a manual safety, I just train around using it...
And if I were a woman and carrying a loaded pistol in a bag, then I'd probably also want a manual safety along with carrying it decocked as the additional time to deactivate would be minimal and every woman I know also has many moments where their purse is not in their hand or on their shoulder, so the additional safety provides benefit in the event an unauthorized party accesses their firearm.  If children might be the unauthorized party, then a grip safety may also provide benefit in add'l risk mitigation...  A woman carrying a firearm on her person would largely if not entirely have the same risk considerations as a man.

Which leads to my second point -- so long as folks have given serious thought to and understand the risks and benefits to their firearm's safety functions, then they should do what they will, but if folks are just following what others are doing, maybe give some more thought before starting down any course of action...  For instance, there are many times where I could carry guns in Condition 1 without causing reliability issues, but again, to what extent can I standardize the manual of arms, does this fit my manual of arms standard...  And if I were a competition shooter who has tens of thousands of reps w/ manual safeties, then I would error to the side of Condition 1 always -- but I'd probably look to a flap holster if I was doing stuff around a lot of sticks or mud where something may be able to work its way between hammer and firing pin and same "keep gun but make other changes" to address specific scenarios -- at least up and until the concessions are no longer are acceptable to you.

Hope this makes sense...  Seems like a long and roundabout way to say -- think long and hard about a variety of common scenarios for you before you decide/purchase (don't just default to what others are doing), actually put your purchase/configuration through the paces (with an unloaded firearm when appropriate) to ensure it actually works for you as intended/expected in your daily life, and be willing to adapt your preferences to the necessities of your specific circumstances (wanting something to work and it actually working are two different things).  And realize that as your seasons of life change, you must continue to re-evaluate whether your current situation is still optimal, and then actually do so.

[M1A4ME]

I don't (never had a failure) of the grip safety system on the 1911/XD/XDM type pistols.  If I've got a firing grip on the pistol the grip safety is not something I have to thing about/worry about.  That grip is there when I grab the pistol to remove it from the holster. 

Similar for the thumb safety.  I don't "think" about pushing the grip safety to the off position.  Neither do I think about pushing the safety off on my shotgun when a grouse jumps up from the brush in front of the dog.  It's a training/practice thing that you stop thinking about doing and just do it while your mind is occupied with other things.  This is why I don't switch back and forth between guns with different safety features.  I'm not going to drive a car with the brake pedal on the right and the gas pedal on the left.  Nope.  Not doing it.

Target shooting wouldn't really matter.  The target's not going to put a hole in me or anyone else. 

My kydex holsters are evidently made differently.  I've come in from outside with all manner of dust, dirt, plant debris, water, etc. on the back of the optic lense, in the slot on the back of the slide where the hammer hits the firing pin, even in the slots of the screw on the right side grip of the pistol.  But nothing down inside the holster with the pistol except dust (or wet dust on a really wet day/job).  My holster(s) pretty well cover the trigger guard area.

I also, after reading/posting in this thread did a more visual and observant "study" of holstering my pistol (P07 with thumb safeties) and realized I do some more things I don't have to spend time thinking about doing. 

Before starting to put the pistol in the holser I use my right thumb to insure the safety is "ON". 

Then I put the muzzle end of the slide/barrel into the holster opening.

As I push the pistol in till it pops into the shaped locking section (or actual lock on the Safariland holsters) my trigger finger goes under the thumb safety to insure the safety stays "ON" till the pistol is either locked in (Safariland holsters) or the right side thumb safety slides into it's slot/pocket in the holster that covers it (kydex IWB holsters I use.)  I remember, with the Urban Gray P01, getting out my heat gun and a large flat bladed screw driver and reforming the right side of the kydex to make that pocket for the right side safety so that the safety could not be moved off safe while in the holster.  That may have made it no good for a P01 with decockers installed, I don't know, my pistol "lost" its' decockers within minutes of being pulled out of the box when I got it home.

Maybe other people can seamlessly switch between decockers and thumb safeties without having to remind themselves today's pistol is different and operates "this way".  Not me.  I know from my history that consistency is the best thing for me.  I've put my left and right foot on the brake pedal of cars with automatic transmissions after driving my cars/trucks with manual transmissions because my reaction to needing to stop quickly is to put my right foot on the brake pedal and my left foot on the clutch pedal.  Makes for an even quicker stop since the left foot is determined to push the (clutch) pedal all the way to the floor like it always does. 

Done that with guns, too.  Stopped shooting my M1A because after shooting AR15's that trigger finger on the right had just has to do something and what it does it press the mag. release vs. moving the safety from fire to safe.  Got tired of dropping the AR15 magazine after each group.  Took my old Win. M97 grouse hunting one day.  I usually hunt with an Ithaca M37.  A grouse jumped up, easy shot to make, my trigger finger "looked" all over the side of the receiver for the safety and couldn't find it.  Had to pull the shotgun away from my cheek to realize the hammer on the M97 was still at half cock, there was no safety and the grouse was gone.  Altered my carry to right thumb on the hammer spur and the next grouse I jumped dropped when I easily thumb cocked the hammer as I shouldered the shotgun to line up on the grouse.

I have one wilder than that.  When I was really into Appleseeding/instructing I built a 10/22 trainer for the M1A.  Won't go into the details/alterations that made it so similar to the M1A.  One day, while practicing with the 10/22 I was prone on the shooting mat.  After some time/practice you no longer "think" about how to get into a good sling supported firing position, you just do it without thinking out the steps.  I got down, everything was ready for the shots and my trigger finger moved in to push the safety to the "fire" position.  Holy cow!  No safety.  How could I have gone through loading, chambering, getting into position, etc. and not realized the safety was in the "fire" position?  I pulled my trigger finger out of the trigger guard and moved to the front of the trigger guard to put it back on safe and there was no feel/contact with the safety.  My mind was tripping all over itself trying to figure out what was wrong and my finger went back into the trigger guard and confirmed the safety was not in the "safe" position.  I rolled the rifle off my shoulder, looked down at it and realized it was the 10/22.  Not the M1A.  That's how similar the 10/11 was in feel/grip/cheekweld, sights, etc. to the M1A.  My mind was operating my body like I had the M1A and it took the failure to find the safety where the safety was supposed to be to "wake me up" from the automatic mode you mind works in once you've done something the same way enough times.

Your mind takes over sometimes without you consciously going through your actions step by step.  That's why you train by repeating the same steps over and over.  So you don't waste the time it takes to go through them step by step.  Maverick was absolutely right when he said that sometimes you don't have time to think it through, you just react, or you're dead.

[Crawl]

Unless someone has a specific issue making it happen (which can be a problem for some people) deactivating a grip safety is a mild training concern which can increase safety while holstering. It certainly doesn't fit everyone, but it does fit most people.

Releasing/engaging the grip safety while holstering IS a training step that is necessary in order to benefit from this safety feature.
Train it deliberately until it becomes automatic.

I am certainly reconsidering my carry options based on the firing pin being exposed while carrying cocked and locked. This is the only thing that has ever given me pause with regard to the question of why would someone carry a DA gun.

My conclusion may end up being that the H&K LEM trigger option is the best solution.

The hammer is 2 pieces, so the spur of the hammer remains in the decocked position, safely protecting the firing pin, while the internal portion of the hammer remains cocked in single action, thereby acting as a SA trigger on the first pull.

When holstering, the user can place his thumb on the hammer spur in order to ensure the trigger does not get pulled inadvertently. However, I'd STILL want a manual safety on even this gun.

All this to say that it would maintain a manual of arms consistent with my rifle. The sequence would still be "disengage the safety when the firearm is properly pointed at a target you intend to engage".